MLB Baseball 2012

[dvockins]

They fattened their wallets on TV contracts and stadium deals paid for by taxpayer money. People like Vockins celebrate that

You'll be hard pressed to find one post I've ever made where I celebrate taypayer financed stadiums. I mocked them about four posts ago.

I will celebrate Barry Bonds's ability at playing baseball. He is easily the best since I have been alive.

[steve]

Poker used to be a ruthless game of cheaters and scumbags. Guys in the Hall of Fame like Puggy Pearson and Amarillo Slim would take the money however it could be got and weren't above reaching across the table and snatching it, if they could get away with it. Doyle Brunson, usually considered an honorable man, recounted a story where he won a pot without having been dealt any cards. He just reraised all in over another player's open, and when the dude mucked, he waited for the pot to be shipped to him and slid his palm toward the muck as though he were mucking a hand.

Using steroids wasn't even against the rules until what, 2001? After that for another fie years or so it was against the rules in the way speeding on the highway is -- if you weren't caught in the act nobody cared.

Both baseball and poker are different now, but people who played them the old way were behaving normally for their time, taking edges as was expected, and I don't fault them.

As an aside, unless a municipality has equity in a team, building a stadium at public expense is flatly ridiculous.

[John Houlihan]

I'm pretty sure it's always been wrong to steal money from people.

[steve]

I'm pretty sure it's always been wrong to steal money from people.

Okay, do you mean by deception or by force? Because poker is half about taking people's money through deception anyway. Old school hustlers and gamblers saw every second of the day as another opportunity to get over on somebody in the manner they might reraise with no hand to "steal" a pot. That word is used for a reason.

[Angus Jung]

I bet John Houlihan jizzed in his boy-pants when the 1986 New York Mets, a team of steroid users, gamblers, cocaine addicts, and spousal abusers, won the World Series.

[Ernest]

All these guys that juiced got paid. In most cases, they were able to command higher salaries because of their distorted production.

But working out, creating a hulking frame for yourself against players that look like sticks, that's fairplay, I'm assuming. Probably because you have to work for giant muscles. But roiders have to work at it too, so where's the demarcation?

You and I all paid for this through higher ticket and concession prices.

That's a bit indirect, though, since ticket prices don't necessarily reflect the amount paid in overhead. A stadium/team owner can charge whatever he likes, regardless how the team is paid.

They fattened their wallets on TV contracts and stadium deals paid for by taxpayer money.

Why are we paying for stadiums?

People like Vockins celebrate that and our resident socialist is cool with that. Now that is some loopy logic.

The loopiness is not giving up this idea of athletes being examples for the rest of us. We're presumably all adults here, and can see how idiotic that idea is.

Because, what is the opposite side to this? Taking roids hurts an honest game, damages the sanctity of an already-dirty game?

No, the Hall should be reserved for something more special than that. Otherwise if you only reward production, Aramis Ramirez suddenly looks like a top talent. Houlihan's analogy is well put.

Where's the morals clause in being included in the hall of fame? "Ruth, not only having an era of 2.28 and batting .342, was also a sweetheart to kids, and donated to the local orphanage."

Also, the existence of the hall of fame is about awesome as the existence of the rock and roll hall of fame. This argument comes down to, "that band sucks because they never won a grammy."

[Ernest]

I'm pretty sure it's always been wrong to steal money from people.

Then we should actually be boycotting the MLB if any of us really, really believed that.

[SergioGeorgini]

As an aside, unless a municipality has equity in a team, building a stadium at public expense is flatly ridiculous.

Agreed. Funny how there can still be blackouts too which seems even more unfair.

[John Houlihan]

I'm pretty sure it's always been wrong to steal money from people.

Okay, do you mean by deception or by force? Because poker is half about taking people's money through deception anyway. Old school hustlers and gamblers saw every second of the day as another opportunity to get over on somebody in the manner they might reraise with no hand to "steal" a pot. That word is used for a reason.

Deception is part of the game of poker. It's within the rules of poker--or at least a previously agreed upon standard of conduct--to steal chips from another player by being deceptive. It's within the rules of baseball to steal a base, fake a bunt, etc.

It's been agreed upon by all the players; bluff all you want, but don't hide an ace in your underpants. Steal second if you want, but don't steal signs or cork a bat.

There's a standard of conduct that should be adhered to when playing any game, and you guys pretend it doesn't exist. I wouldn't use a word scrambler in Scrabble and I expect my opponent to conduct himself in the same manner of honesty. I really do. Maybe I'm gullible.

As much as I love winning money playing poker, I don't angle-shoot. I don't take another man's money outside of the pre-established and accepted practices of the game. All that's in it for me is to win money playing the game. It's a great game. It's challenging. If I wanted to steal from someone, I would take their wallet. "Why are you taking my wallet?" "Oh yeah, sorry. That's part of the game. Anyone in a casino is a degenerate, so i figured why not stick you up in the parking garage. People have always stolen! It's biblical shit. They made tablets and everything, brah. Gotta go hit the ATM, Walter S. Crumbwich. See ya 'round."

Any baseball rookie who respects the game and decides to live his life honestly is the victim of those who willingly choose to take checks off the table when no one is looking. There is a lack of respect for your fellow man in here somewhere, I'm telling you. A "Fuck everyone but me" attitude. These guys would make great CEOs or Libertarians.

I'm sick of this cocaine argument too. Cocaine doesn't make you a better ballplayer. It makes you a cocaine addict and destroys your life. Steroids makes you a better ballplayer. Sometimes miles better. In many cases, it can turn a really good player into the greatest player ever. That's fucked up.

[John Houlihan]

Both games are tests of skill. If you don't have that, whaddya got? "Who's the Best at Juking the System"?

I don't wanna watch that.

If you put super balls in the barrel of your bat, or steroids in your barrel-ass, or aces up your asshole, you're a fucking cheater. I don't like you for it, and I'm not going to stand there and applaud while you're being honored for being the best at having awesome connections in the pharmaceutical industry, or because you put one over on your peers.


Edit: I left out the word "at."

[John Houlihan]

Also, the existence of the hall of fame is about awesome as the existence of the rock and roll hall of fame. This argument comes down to, "that band sucks because they never won a grammy."

Oh, Christ you are so wrong about this. Go to the Hall of Fame. Don't you live upstate? The reason that the Baseball Hall of Fucking Fame is so awesome is because it is a testament to ordinary men doing extraordinary things. It's magical. There's nothing extraordinary about Steely Dan or Love in an Elevator.

[Ernest]

How far as we taking the 'test of skill' thing? One fuck up, wrong move, short nap, can be the difference between a postseason of fame, and one of infamy. Baseball's weight has to do with it's quantifiability, not necessarily skill. Too many people down play the role of luck, and sheer chance in this game. We only have a rough idea of who is the best, leaving aside the political horror show that prevented the negro leagues from attaining any status.

It's always been a game where some of the most negative aspects of people have come into play- Cobb, anyone? That surly motherfucker was a fantastic player, but a waste of a human being. I don't know where people find the time, or energy to invest so much into the game. It's a fantastic game despite it's environment.

What I really don't understand is why are the arguments so arbitrary? Why is it an honest game when people ignore the massive economic injustice the MLB is? You think a rookie should pour his heart and soul out for $417,000 compared to the profits pulled in? People always jump to give the players the first and foremost amount of shit, but not even a single percent of that is aimed toward the clubhouse, and the skybox looking thing.

I'm not about to start getting self righteous over an advantage on the field- roids don't bulk you up without you putting in the effort, and given how fucked up the pay is in contrast to the total amount, I don't care. It's entertainment, and for anyone to consider it some form of honor puts the cart before the horse by not looking at what it is- employees trying to gain a sharper advantage to appease their employer, and their own egos. We get the game our society deserves.

[Ernest]

Oh, Christ you are so wrong about this. Go to the Hall of Fame. Don't you live upstate? The reason that the Baseball Hall of Fucking Fame is so awesome is because it is a testament to ordinary men doing extraordinary things. It's magical. There's nothing extraordinary about Steely Dan or Love in an Elevator.

I'll eventually make the trip up, but it's all political. That's the one thing they share with that wretched shithole of a rock and roll hall of fame.

It's a bunch of rooms of stuff, right? This thread is going to make me suspicious about roids in the hall of fame. Needles, and creams placed lovingly by the bat.

[John Houlihan]

How far as we taking the 'test of skill' thing? One fuck up, wrong move, short nap, can be the difference between a postseason of fame, and one of infamy. Baseball's weight has to do with it's quantifiability, not necessarily skill. Too many people down play the role of luck, and sheer chance in this game. We only have a rough idea of who is the best, leaving aside the political horror show that prevented the negro leagues from attaining any status.

It's always been a game where some of the most negative aspects of people have come into play- Cobb, anyone? That surly motherfucker was a fantastic player, but a waste of a human being. I don't know where people find the time, or energy to invest so much into the game. It's a fantastic game despite it's environment.

What I really don't understand is why are the arguments so arbitrary? Why is it an honest game when people ignore the massive economic injustice the MLB is? You think a rookie should pour his heart and soul out for $417,000 compared to the profits pulled in? People always jump to give the players the first and foremost amount of shit, but not even a single percent of that is aimed toward the clubhouse, and the skybox looking thing.

I'm not about to start getting self righteous over an advantage on the field- roids don't bulk you up without you putting in the effort, and given how fucked up the pay is in contrast to the total amount, I don't care. It's entertainment, and for anyone to consider it some form of honor puts the cart before the horse by not looking at what it is- employees trying to gain a sharper advantage to appease their employer, and their own egos. We get the game our society deserves.

I can Blocker Cobb you point by point all night. So easy. But I won't.

If you can't watch the game and see what I see, then there is no use arguing. I'm arguing balls and strikes and you want to talk about economic injustice.

Regarding your "It's just entertainment" argument, watch wrestling then. Watch The Wire. You haven't grown up having baseball mean something to you. Maybe one day it will. The joy and heartache and ultimate inconsequence of the game is something that can't be dismissed.

You also (quite amateurishly) played the "luck" and "Ty Cobb was a dick" cards! Ha! Minor league posting, slugger.

[Ernest]

So you'd rather pull out the 'Wonder Years' argument? That's how settle this? Fine- let's substitute music for baseball; many of you think there's a right, and romantic way to do it, and others are fucking it up. Makes no difference if you've invested time, and effort, it's always been that way, even if you choose to focus on the surface of how honest and peachy it is.

I want to argue balls and strikes too, but at the end of the day, you just go to bed, and wake up again.

Also:

I'm arguing balls and strikes and you want to talk about economic injustice.

The two are tied together.

[John Houlihan]

I've decided to not argue with you any longer.

Maybe tomorrow.

[enframed]

Dunno if this has been discussed in this thread, but WTF is with this new "market pricing" bullshit? Used to be a seat in section F was $X.XX. Now the price changes depending on what? Proximity to game day? Rival team in town? Fuck you, MLB.

[MWilke]

As an aside, unless a municipality has equity in a team, building a stadium at public expense is flatly ridiculous.

Agreed. Funny how there can still be blackouts too which seems even more unfair.

It's without question a public robbery from the private sector. Even tea party guys I know in Minnesota that have extreme views of the public/private sector relationship know the Pohlads and Bud Selig took the state and Hennepin County for a ride, especially after slashing payroll approximately 13% in the third season of Target Field. Jonah Keri's book on the Rays that came out in about a year or two ago called 'The Extra 2%' has an excellent section on this topic, particularly about the threat of moving as a hostage technique to get the deals done.

[John Houlihan]

No public money for baseball.

[dabrasha]

Houston's epic misfortune makes me sad. Don't know why.