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Verdict - Death Penalty/Capital Punishment

Vote and debate.

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What do you do?

Kill them dead.
20
14%
Let them rot in their cells.
121
86%
 
Total votes : 141

Re: Verdict - Death Penalty/Capital Punishment

Postby stephen on Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:40 am

Image
Another time the Woman that cries hot Gray Pease about the Streets, coming up Ram Alley in Fleet Street … a cold hand was lay’d upon her, and up flew her heels, and down fell the Pease Tub, when (as she has farther related) her sences were so charmed, that she lost all power of Resistance, and left him to Tyranize over her Posteriors at pleasure, the which when he had done, he, with a cry of "spanko", left her to scrape up her ware as well as she could, for the use of such longing Ladies as are affected with such Diet.

“Whipping Tom“: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whipping_Tom

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Whenever I see the phrase "Capital Punishment" I think "Corporal Punishment". When I went to school, commonly by Senior School, boys were getting their Bottoms canned or slippered. P.E teachers tended to favour The Slipper and whilst anyone could Cane, mostly the Miscreant was sent to one of three expert Spankers for a thrashing. Unfortunately, in this regard, I went to an all boys Secondary School so have no idea if girls got their bums whacked though I like to think they did. And, oh my, we did have a very-tall-n-curvy, big-n-chested, female drama teacher who took Kenny Trim, a very athletic light-skinned coloured boy into her office to administer punishment on his buttocks which left a lot of us very excited and desirous of explicit description from Kenny after the administration. Equally when I was born people were still Hung and a handful of British Baddies were Hanged in my lifetime.

The execution of Saddam Hussien upset me but it's possible that had he been an attractive woman, because he wasn't an unattractive man, that I would have been sexually stimulated aswell. I wonder if the mainstream media would have televised the event, as they did of Mister Saddam, if he had been Miss Hussain? I like to think they would've. And you can well imagine the effect a Female Putin, Hung, would have on me! Talk about World Leaders, now there is a Man; Putin is The Man; he'd make a fantastic woman.

I got the cane twice, once in front of the Class and once in private from my favourite Teacher. I got the Slipper once, in the changing room in front of a pack of half undressed lads getting ready for Football because I called Mr Gallagher "Poof..... the magic Dragon"; he was relatively young, on the small side, had very long, a 70's cascade of lush, blond, locks so looked a lot like a woman.

But you'd be wrong to think that these Rituals led to any aberrations in me; it was part-n-parcel of Normal school life like Cricket, Chemistry and Biology, Table Tennis, Badminton and Mathematics, Woodwork and Metalwork too. Indeed my predilection for Tormented Women was firmly in place long before any welts had been stripped across my buttocks. Of course before I was 18, and could legally purchase magazines depicting women bent-over, I had to steal them, which meant I probably didn't get my hands on one untill I was twelve or thirteen, though I had dreamed of them since around five.

So it's a Shame that Yanks don't bundle up and sell photo's and film of their Executions for those that want them. In fact it smacks of that Towny-Western-Wrangle-Trait that's objectionable; of distancing everyone from the physical, messy, reality of life and death; the sewers of filth hidden away behind mirrors, white-wash, smoke and stainless steel; the Abattoirs that turn out packages of divorced-flesh wrapped in robes polystyrene and cling film, rather than chucking the bucket full of turds onto the Compost Heap, shooting the Rabbit in the head, the bolt through Cattle brain and slitting Chicken's throat, pulling out shit filled guts to feast on it's heart and kidneys.

Instead what do we get? We get all the tease of Cows chewing cud in contented landscape of greens and ocher, the clucking in the fields of happy free-range, organic if you're that way inclined, Turkey but the actual red-n-raw Chastisement of the Birds and the Boars is all hidden. So how's the healthy, rutting Sadist to get a Stiffy?

A number of supermarket chains are demanding that CCTV systems be fitted in the stunning and killing areas of all abattoirs that supply them with meat, as they move to reassure consumers that animals are not being cruelly treated.

Morrisons, M&S, Waitrose, Co-op and Sainsbury's have also promised that CCTV images will be independently monitored... Morrisons' director of corporate affairs, Richard Taylor, said: "High animal welfare is paramount to all we do, from working with farmers to the point of slaughter. That is what our customers expect."


Image
Revenge and simple pleasure of other's pain is the attraction and purpose of Capital Punishment. But the Masses are only being given the cock-tease Ritual, long drawn out, in America, like stroke of her glossed-red lips along the shaft, but denied sight of slash of whip on her red-welt Breasts the caresses, crimson, across Cheeks of her Back Bottom and, in the case of Electrocution, the shaving of Front Bottom to allow for secure contact of electrodes. But! Even more, it seems, we are to be denied that delight, as Electric Chair is superseded by Lethal Injection.

The aim then is removal of all Passion from Existence hence it's final destruction. Is it possible to make Killing more boring than strapping a Being to starched-white stainless table, leaking anesthesia into them until they die, whilst a small select audience look on, as like into a Telly screen, life slowly, uneventfully, fading? It's dull and industrial, like packing a tin full into a box and gassing them; it's ironic how touchy many Americans are about Gassing the Jews, and those who dare to suggest that maybe many, most, nearly all, weren't gassed but shot and bulldozed, starved and flogged till they drooped then dropped; of course they're touchy, it's so messy befouling their minds with realistic horror instead of the sanitary conformity and cleanliness of shampoo and soft toilet paper to wipe their arses and blind their eyes. No, no, no shove in Gas Oven, close the door, cook 'em up and serve them as dressed Leg of Lamb from Sainsbury's. Perhaps a perverse double-back reverse-n-up-yer Scapegoating is being enacted on the Condemned Man, the Victim, to atone for the obvious dishonesty of the actual Yankee Execution?

Unfortunately, for me again, I'm not overly keen on foreign looking Birds, because the Iranians seem to have the decency to do this dirty work in public. And weren't they going to display, broadcast, flog a White Woman for some sort of sex crime, but she managed to wriggle out of it and get deported? Though I'd like to think that little Vixen hadn't escaped her punishment I believe she did and it's a shame.
Image
That in the end is what we are talking about here, isn't it? Shame? And that's why the really meaty stuff, the bit we all want to see, is unacknowledged, denied even. For good reason perhaps; as all the deviant-sex-fun was much more fun-fun when Discipline Games-n-Torture, the Seamed Stockings and Suspenders, went on behind closed doors of illegality but now has lost so much energy by being on every Housewife's shopping list when she wanders down the high street for a little bit of Cosmo-Fun with some fur-lined handcuffs from Ann Summers.
Image

If truth be told we are in realms of The Anti-Life. And isn't it delicious, the contradictions, for at the same time, in Britain, as the Death Penalty was abolished, to delight of Pro-Life, Abortion and Homosexuality were legalised, the State promotion of Contraception, all Anti-Life; handing out, for free even, the Pill for every woman and Dunkies for the Father. And even now when our Establishment, our blessed State, proclaims its life enhancing objectives of Equality of Everything it is seriously examining Euthanasia and endlessly engaging in doling out death sentences, in the tens of thousands, millions even, all over the world. Still, that's how humans have always been and always will be, it's how we are made.
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Re: Verdict - Death Penalty/Capital Punishment

Postby frelnamp on Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:37 pm

A friend offered an interesting viewpoint on capital punishment the other day. They believed that, instead of the state stepping in to decide and enact a punishment in a dispute between two parties, the state (or whatever power structure may exist) would step in only to ensure that the two parties come to a settlement between themselves. There would be no imprisonment or execution. The parties would have to arrive at either a monetary compensation and/or the giving up of property. If the defendant was too poor to do this, then they would have to perform some sort of labor for the injured party for an agreed amount of time until satisfaction was reached.

Once the penalty had been met, both parties had to agree that it indeed had been met and consider the matter settled. No lingering vengefulness, no post-judgement seeking of further justice. Settled. The authorities would make sure both sides feel the matter to be settled, but cannot interfere beyond that.

Seems it would be near impossible to implement this idea in just about any society on the planet, but it's an interesting alternative approach to capital punishment, and one that could be a component of a much healthier society. Then again, I could see how such a system would wind up being abused.

Depending on the crime, i don't know if I would have the temperament to easily accept this method of resolution in an injustice against myself. I might, but I'm not sure.

Would this be an acceptable way to resolve something like, say, the Trayvon Martin case, assuming Zimmerman is found guilty?
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Re: Verdict - Death Penalty/Capital Punishment

Postby EmpireStateTroopers on Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:44 pm

what if one of the parties is dead?
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Re: Verdict - Death Penalty/Capital Punishment

Postby frelnamp on Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:48 pm

EmpireStateTroopers wrote:what if one of the parties is dead?


Then the injured party would be the parents, in the case of a murdered child. The surviving spouse, in the case of a murdered wife or husband. If neither of those apply, then the closest relative? If that isn't applicable either, then I don't know.
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Re: Verdict - Death Penalty/Capital Punishment

Postby Zorg on Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:08 pm

frelnamp wrote:they would have to perform some sort of labor for the injured party for an agreed amount of time until satisfaction was reached.


Wasn't this the plot for the show Jerry and George come up with? And no, I rather not have that dude who murdered my loved ones puttering around the house, cleaning my fish tank or whatever.
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Re: Verdict - Death Penalty/Capital Punishment

Postby FuzzBob on Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:31 pm

frelnamp wrote:A friend offered an interesting viewpoint on capital punishment the other day. They believed that, instead of the state stepping in to decide and enact a punishment in a dispute between two parties, the state (or whatever power structure may exist) would step in only to ensure that the two parties come to a settlement between themselves. There would be no imprisonment or execution. The parties would have to arrive at either a monetary compensation and/or the giving up of property. If the defendant was too poor to do this, then they would have to perform some sort of labor for the injured party for an agreed amount of time until satisfaction was reached.

Once the penalty had been met, both parties had to agree that it indeed had been met and consider the matter settled. No lingering vengefulness, no post-judgement seeking of further justice. Settled. The authorities would make sure both sides feel the matter to be settled, but cannot interfere beyond that.

Seems it would be near impossible to implement this idea in just about any society on the planet, but it's an interesting alternative approach to capital punishment, and one that could be a component of a much healthier society. Then again, I could see how such a system would wind up being abused.

Depending on the crime, i don't know if I would have the temperament to easily accept this method of resolution in an injustice against myself. I might, but I'm not sure.

Would this be an acceptable way to resolve something like, say, the Trayvon Martin case, assuming Zimmerman is found guilty?


So basically, you're recasting crimes as torts that should be resolved through mediation or arbitration.

I'm with you on this up to a point. I can't think of a better way to nullify victimless crimes.

This leaves some problems unsolved: first, how a resolution may be enforced; second, deterring recidivism; and third, non-punitive benefits of the penal system such as removal of a violent criminal, such as a sex offender, from society.
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Re: Verdict - Death Penalty/Capital Punishment

Postby frelnamp on Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:11 pm

Zorg wrote:
frelnamp wrote:they would have to perform some sort of labor for the injured party for an agreed amount of time until satisfaction was reached.


Wasn't this the plot for the show Jerry and George come up with? And no, I rather not have that dude who murdered my loved ones puttering around the house, cleaning my fish tank or whatever.


Don't know the Jerry and George Show. You mean a Seinfeld episode?

I did not specify that the accused would have to perform labor on your behalf at the residence where you live. it could occur elsewhere.
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Re: Verdict - Death Penalty/Capital Punishment

Postby frelnamp on Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:27 pm

FuzzBob wrote:So basically, you're recasting crimes as torts that should be resolved through mediation or arbitration.

I'm with you on this up to a point. I can't think of a better way to nullify victimless crimes.

This leaves some problems unsolved: first, how a resolution may be enforced; second, deterring recidivism; and third, non-punitive benefits of the penal system such as removal of a violent criminal, such as a sex offender, from society.


All good points. Seeking to keep the state from meddling too much in other people's affairs and trying to be as humane as possible may be no match for a natural impulse that is so successfully taught and replicated among people not in sympathy, but violently agitated at one another.
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Re: Verdict - Death Penalty/Capital Punishment

Postby Marsupialized on Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:27 pm

FUCKING GUILLOTINE! That is the answer. make it available to criminals as a choice and I swear to you, they will line up down the block to be whumped into sweet, sweet oblivion.
Even for the most petty of offenses, it should be an option. 'Pay this ticket by mail, or report for guillotining at Daley plaza before noon on a weekday before May 7th'
I would go in a second, first chance I got. Getting guillotined has been a dream of mine, since I was a young child, and to have it suddenly be available as an option? Like a dream come true. All this bullshit, over, just like that. WACK. Painless, quick, done. All that's left is an sick ass youtube video. Sign me the fuck up.
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Re: Verdict - Death Penalty/Capital Punishment

Postby jimmy two hands on Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:48 am

frelnamp wrote:
FuzzBob wrote:So basically, you're recasting crimes as torts that should be resolved through mediation or arbitration.

I'm with you on this up to a point. I can't think of a better way to nullify victimless crimes.

This leaves some problems unsolved: first, how a resolution may be enforced; second, deterring recidivism; and third, non-punitive benefits of the penal system such as removal of a violent criminal, such as a sex offender, from society.


All good points. Seeking to keep the state from meddling too much in other people's affairs and trying to be as humane as possible may be no match for a natural impulse that is so successfully taught and replicated among people not in sympathy, but violently agitated at one another.

If someone were to murder one of my friends or loved ones, I would prefer the state would meddle in our affairs and lock the murderer up, first of all to keep the public safe, but also because then I wouldn't be able to kill them. I would find it hard to resist the urge to kill that person, and I don't want to be drawn into that act. In fact, I have at least two friends who have been raped and I have come to the realization that if I were to meet one of these rapists, I would not be able to keep myself from violently attacking and murdering them, most likely in a brutal and painful manner. Just thinking about it right now is filling me with rage. Knowing that at least one of these rapists is behind bars and will remain there for a very long time calms me down, because if he ever gets out of prison, he'll be too old and feeble to harm anyone else again, and I'll be too old and feeble and hopefully less enraged to be capable of killing him.
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Re: Verdict - Death Penalty/Capital Punishment

Postby Ranxerox on Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:06 am

frelnamp wrote:A friend offered an interesting viewpoint on capital punishment the other day. They believed that, instead of the state stepping in to decide and enact a punishment in a dispute between two parties, the state (or whatever power structure may exist) would step in only to ensure that the two parties come to a settlement between themselves. There would be no imprisonment or execution. The parties would have to arrive at either a monetary compensation and/or the giving up of property. If the defendant was too poor to do this, then they would have to perform some sort of labor for the injured party for an agreed amount of time until satisfaction was reached.

Once the penalty had been met, both parties had to agree that it indeed had been met and consider the matter settled. No lingering vengefulness, no post-judgement seeking of further justice. Settled. The authorities would make sure both sides feel the matter to be settled, but cannot interfere beyond that.

Seems it would be near impossible to implement this idea in just about any society on the planet, but it's an interesting alternative approach to capital punishment, and one that could be a component of a much healthier society. Then again, I could see how such a system would wind up being abused.

Depending on the crime, i don't know if I would have the temperament to easily accept this method of resolution in an injustice against myself. I might, but I'm not sure.

Would this be an acceptable way to resolve something like, say, the Trayvon Martin case, assuming Zimmerman is found guilty?


Once Europeans arrived in the New World and shared their various diseases native peoples died in appalling numbers, many before any real colonies took hold and pushed westward. In order to keep their tribal censuses up killings that took place between tribes would with some regularity lead to people swapping. A sort of tribute to the lost tribe. The new members of the tribe were full inductees. It was considered preferable to most inter-tribal wars or revenge killings.
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Re: Verdict - Death Penalty/Capital Punishment

Postby AnthonyCinder on Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:33 am

Barbaric. Crap.
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Re: Verdict - Death Penalty/Capital Punishment

Postby matthew on Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:52 pm

I'm going to draw with broad strokes.

I support capital punishment in the USA in specific cases of murder which there is one or more of the following: extreme scale, extreme cruelty/sadism, established premeditation and/or a recurring pattern of less heinous murders.

Has it been or will it be always applied appropriately in the USA? No, obviously. But this is not a reasonable argument to abolish it. You might as well abolish the criminal justice system in the USA all together then, because it's far from perfect as a whole. I simply don't see why, say, a convicted, remorseless, brutal serial rapist/killer should not receive the death penalty because another guy in another case might receive unduly. I don't see the logic in that. Do criminal justice systems break down? Sure they do! But my point is only about the death penalty and its proper application, not the current state of affairs of a given criminal justice system.






There's been talk on this thread about "revenge".

Revenge is a matter of vigilantism and is more or less ad hoc. I do not support revenge, because it is chaos and injustice building upon chaos and injustice. Justice has to be formalized in the rule of law. You can't have people running around at will executing their notions of justice upon others- it's chaos and it involves self-interest rather than the interests of society as a whole.

Retribution, which is part (at least nominally) of any fair sentence pronounced any legitimate institution of justice, is matter of society in effect saying "you must pay for your crime, for the sake of both society and for the sake of the victim" through a set, agreed-upon-by-society procedure. I support administering the death penalty for certain crimes which involves the aspects I mention at the top...because nothing else can provide retribution aside from that. Every case is different though. I'm drawing with broad strokes here, like I said.

Another aspect of capital punishment is the deterrent factor. We'll never know for sure how many crimes its establishment has deterred. How many people have planned to kill someone but not carried it out due to deterrence? Tons, I'm sure......more than I'd care to know.....hell, I'm sure I've seriously wanted to kill a few people in my life. But I didn't carry it out, and that is what makes me different from the person on death row.

Anyway, retribution is part of justice, and retribution is different from revenge, and in some cases the only appropriate form of retribution to both society as a whole and the victimized party is the guilty party forfeiting their life. Bottom line.
Last edited by matthew on Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Verdict - Death Penalty/Capital Punishment

Postby krs on Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:09 pm

matthew wrote:I'm going to draw with broad strokes.

I support capital punishment in the USA in specific cases of murder which there is one or more of the following: extreme scale, extreme cruelty/sadism, established premeditation and/or a recurring pattern of less heinous murders.

Has it been or will be always applied appropriately in the USA? No, obviously. But this is not a reasonable argument to abolish it. You might as well abolish the criminal justice system in the USA all together then, because it's far from perfect as a whole.


The death of innocent people is just the cost of doing business, then? That's pretty sick and shows a very low amount of respect for life.

As a point of fact, the burden of proof in the U.S. has always been higher to take a person's life, than it is to take that person's freedom or property. This is where logic breaks down your argument.
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Re: Verdict - Death Penalty/Capital Punishment

Postby jimmy two hands on Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:17 pm

matthew wrote:There's been talk on this thread about "revenge".

Revenge is a matter of vigilantism and is more or less ad hoc. I do not support revenge, because it is chaos and injustice building upon chaos and injustice. Justice has to be formalized in the rule of law. You can't have people running around at will executing their notions of justice upon others- it's chaos and it involves self-interest rather than the interests of society as a whole.


So rather than chaos and injustice, you support order and injustice? Capital punishment is basically a state monopoly on revenge and barbarism.
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Re: Verdict - Death Penalty/Capital Punishment

Postby matthew on Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:18 pm

krs wrote:
matthew wrote:I'm going to draw with broad strokes.

I support capital punishment in the USA in specific cases of murder which there is one or more of the following: extreme scale, extreme cruelty/sadism, established premeditation and/or a recurring pattern of less heinous murders.

Has it been or will be always applied appropriately in the USA? No, obviously. But this is not a reasonable argument to abolish it. You might as well abolish the criminal justice system in the USA all together then, because it's far from perfect as a whole.


The death of innocent people is just the cost of doing business, then? That's pretty sick and shows a very low amount of respect for life.


Check my revised post. I don't see how the fact that some people have been executed unjustly in the past pertains to the fact that someone might deserve it for a crime which they've been justly convicted of.

We can argue about the current state of affairs in a criminal justice system to no end, but that's besides my point.
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Re: Verdict - Death Penalty/Capital Punishment

Postby numberthirty on Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:23 pm

matthew wrote:Another aspect of capital punishment is the deterrent factor. We'll never know for sure how many crimes its establishment has deterred. How many people have planned to kill someone but not carried it out due to deterrence? Tons, I'm sure......more than I'd care to know.....hell, I'm sure I've seriously wanted to kill a few people in my life. But I didn't carry it out, and that is what makes me different from the person on death row.

Anyway, retribution is part of justice, and retribution is different from revenge, and in some cases the only appropriate form of retribution to both society as a whole and the victimized party is the guilty party forfeiting their life. Bottom line.


It's not called a retributionary. It's called a penitentiary.
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Re: Verdict - Death Penalty/Capital Punishment

Postby krs on Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:23 pm

matthew wrote:I simply don't see why, say, a convicted, remorseless, brutal serial rapist/killer should not receive the death penalty because another guy in another case might receive unduly.


Your reasoning is still fucked and totally backward. That remorseless, brutal serial rapist/killer should not receive the death penalty, exactly because it might also be handed down to a person who is innocent.

I don't personally believe a death penalty should be use in any instance...but, using your original [low] moral bar (it is ok for the state to kill people), the logic in your argument still fails.
Last edited by krs on Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Verdict - Death Penalty/Capital Punishment

Postby numberthirty on Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:29 pm

krs wrote:
matthew wrote:I simply don't see why, say, a convicted, remorseless, brutal serial rapist/killer should not receive the death penalty because another guy in another case might receive unduly.


Your reasoning is still fucked and totally backward. That remorseless, brutal serial rapist/killer should not receive the death penalty, exactly because it might also be handed down to a person who is innocent.


Not really. Even if we knew the state only executed the guilty, it completes a circle. We need to try to break that circle.
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Re: Verdict - Death Penalty/Capital Punishment

Postby krs on Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:32 pm

numberthirty wrote:
krs wrote:
matthew wrote:I simply don't see why, say, a convicted, remorseless, brutal serial rapist/killer should not receive the death penalty because another guy in another case might receive unduly.


Your reasoning is still fucked and totally backward. That remorseless, brutal serial rapist/killer should not receive the death penalty, exactly because it might also be handed down to a person who is innocent.


Not really. Even if we knew the state only executed the guilty, it completes a circle. We need to try to break that circle.


I was going with his [low] moral bar for the moment. I am personally in complete agreement with you.
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