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ATP Nightmare before Christmas

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Re: ATP Nightmare before Christmas

Postby Bill Swansea on Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:22 am

It'll be sold out before the majority of the line is announced at this rate.
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Re: ATP Nightmare before Christmas

Postby gjhardwick on Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:18 am

I more surprised over the fact that ATP have managed to milk this particular cash-cow for so long with ever diminishing returns (or maybe not, based on their current liquidation/rebirth), rather than American curators choosing American centric line-ups...
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Re: ATP Nightmare before Christmas

Postby The Canadian on Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:11 am

Just re-posting that I still have 2 spaces available in a 4-berth room for the Shellac ATP. If you're interested in bunking with a couple of Canadians send me a PM.

Edit: Tickets are now gone.
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Re: ATP Nightmare before Christmas

Postby Ptommydski on Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:22 pm

I think the Shellac ATP is defensible because it's sort of an anniversary of the great 2002 event, which was probably the best music event I've ever been to.

There's no denying that most of the ATP events have good line-ups but it's still a shame that maybe a couple of newer UK independent bands aren't featured. The sort of bands I mean are the type of acts who have a lot in common with the US bands who usually play and/or curate ATP events. Of course, the people curating should be able to pick who they like but if anybody chose to include one or two UK bands who aren't typically exposed to this kind of audience, that would be a class act. When I became interested in independent music and punk rock, it seemed like this kind of thoughtfulness was relatively common.

On the one hand, you can definitely say that UK audiences should already be familiar with UK bands but sadly it doesn't work like that any more. As you can see from this thread, people from the UK and abroad have this odd notion that there are no good bands in their own country - largely because other folks reinforce this with idle comments about the perceived superiority of any/all US bands. Thus, all of these great UK bands (who are often involved with promoting, housing and sometimes writing about the US bands who come over here) quite often have a really hard time convincing anybody that they are worthy of attention. A huge chunk of people who will go to this Shellac ATP will never even consider seeing The Unit Ama or Bilge Pump - exactly the sort of acts who would fit perfectly into this kind of event.

To be frank, I'm confused and worried about ATP. It's a common sentiment amongst Brits, it seems. The events are becoming more expensive, less inclusive and the rosters are becoming increasingly, possibly unhealthily, focused on nostalgia. It seems like ATP is gradually alienating its core audience and I don't know if it's a sustainable approach. Most of the bands who play and/or curate became popular before the internet permanently changed the game and established themselves at least partially through college (or state-subsidised) radio and music journalism (both of which were massively important, especially in the UK). The kids who grew up reading about the great independent music of yore are now being told that they're not good enough and not welcome by some of the artists who inspired them to take up music.

If things aren't going all so well for ATP (which it seems might well be the case), I feel like it's because they're not listening to their own demographic. Some people in this thread and elsewhere are the exact people who they should be listening to - the people actually involved in the independent music community in the UK on a day-to-day basis. There's this weird disconnect between the older bands who commonly play these events and the younger, newer bands who used to make up part of their audience. Nobody will ever reach the level of Shellac or Fugazi ever again - the infrastructure which allowed them to build global audiences is gone. As soon as the bands who are trotted out each time are retired, this type of event is going to disappear completely. If some new blood was allowed to find a wider audience, it would actually add a new dimension which would probably be beneficial to ATP in the long run.
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Re: ATP Nightmare before Christmas

Postby 154 on Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:40 pm

Of course, the people curating should be able to pick who they like but if anybody chose to include one or two UK bands who aren't typically exposed to this kind of audience, that would be a class act. When I became interested in independent music and punk rock, it seemed like this kind of thoughtfulness was relatively common.


This kind of Thurston Moore-ish, 'finger on the pulse of the younger active scene' thing would strike me as transparent and phony. I don't know why any band curating a special gig or festival would not want to invite their closest friends, bands they've toured with, recorded with, and genuinely like versus combing Bandcamp sites looking for something more 'representative of the region'.

I also jaded enough to think it wouldn't work. If the local bands go on at noon, most people will just show up at 4pm..
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Re: ATP Nightmare before Christmas

Postby Snowblinder on Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:41 pm

This happens literally two weeks after our European tour is scheduled to end. I'm seriously considering e-mailing our booking guy and seeing if he can tack on two more weeks of tour just so that I can go to this at the end of the trip, haha. 60 days of tour overseas capped off with going to ATP would be pretty sweet.
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Re: ATP Nightmare before Christmas

Postby Ptommydski on Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:01 pm

154 wrote:This kind of Thurston Moore-ish, 'finger on the pulse of the younger active scene' thing would strike me as transparent and phony. I don't know why any band curating a special gig or festival would not want to invite their closest friends, bands they've toured with, recorded with, and genuinely like versus combing Bandcamp sites looking for something more 'representative of the region'.

I also jaded enough to think it wouldn't work. If the local bands go on at noon, most people will just show up at 4pm..

I think this is a fair point, especially the latter part. There's of course a chance that people would still ignore the UK bands but again, that's partially because of this odd notion that the UK has no great bands. There was definitely a period whereby it seemed like they were few and far between but lo and behold, the Our Band Could Be Your Life reading generation ended up forming a lot of really good bands.

Still (just to use the Shellac ATP as an example because it's the closest), I can think of a handful of UK bands who have recorded at Electrical Audio who would probably play - Avenging Force, Future Of The Left, Electrelane etc.
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Re: ATP Nightmare before Christmas

Postby 154 on Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:19 pm

..Future Of The Left


Funny, as I specifically recall a thread on here where people were complaining about McLusky/FoTL getting all of the stateside recognition while their friends' 'better' bands weren't getting any attention.

Certain fractions of the UK scene have developed a bit of a reputation around here for being a bit touchy/resentful, more than any other region I've noticed. It's kind of intriguing.
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Re: ATP Nightmare before Christmas

Postby Ptommydski on Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:35 pm

I'm not being funny but could it at least partially be because US bands are welcomed over here, despite festivals where the curators come over and call all the UK bands shit? Would that not rankle you just a little if you spent quite a lot of time putting on shows and promoting US acts?
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Re: ATP Nightmare before Christmas

Postby 154 on Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:48 pm

The first point: possibly, though there may be more useful ways to channel that negativity.

The second point: if even a small part of you is into it looking to get something in return down the line, maybe you shouldn't do it. We all do it all the time and often the favors are not returned. Just enjoy the moments for what they are and be surprised and delighted about any of the opportunities that eventually come your way.
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Re: ATP Nightmare before Christmas

Postby gjhardwick on Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:50 pm

Ptommydski wrote:I think the Shellac ATP is defensible because it's sort of an anniversary of the great 2002 event, which was probably the best music event I've ever been to.

There's no denying that most of the ATP events have good line-ups but it's still a shame that maybe a couple of newer UK independent bands aren't featured. The sort of bands I mean are the type of acts who have a lot in common with the US bands who usually play and/or curate ATP events. Of course, the people curating should be able to pick who they like but if anybody chose to include one or two UK bands who aren't typically exposed to this kind of audience, that would be a class act. When I became interested in independent music and punk rock, it seemed like this kind of thoughtfulness was relatively common.

On the one hand, you can definitely say that UK audiences should already be familiar with UK bands but sadly it doesn't work like that any more. As you can see from this thread, people from the UK and abroad have this odd notion that there are no good bands in their own country - largely because other folks reinforce this with idle comments about the perceived superiority of any/all US bands. Thus, all of these great UK bands (who are often involved with promoting, housing and sometimes writing about the US bands who come over here) quite often have a really hard time convincing anybody that they are worthy of attention. A huge chunk of people who will go to this Shellac ATP will never even consider seeing The Unit Ama or Bilge Pump - exactly the sort of acts who would fit perfectly into this kind of event.

To be frank, I'm confused and worried about ATP. It's a common sentiment amongst Brits, it seems. The events are becoming more expensive, less inclusive and the rosters are becoming increasingly, possibly unhealthily, focused on nostalgia. It seems like ATP is gradually alienating its core audience and I don't know if it's a sustainable approach. Most of the bands who play and/or curate became popular before the internet permanently changed the game and established themselves at least partially through college (or state-subsidised) radio and music journalism (both of which were massively important, especially in the UK). The kids who grew up reading about the great independent music of yore are now being told that they're not good enough and not welcome by some of the artists who inspired them to take up music.

If things aren't going all so well for ATP (which it seems might well be the case), I feel like it's because they're not listening to their own demographic. Some people in this thread and elsewhere are the exact people who they should be listening to - the people actually involved in the independent music community in the UK on a day-to-day basis. There's this weird disconnect between the older bands who commonly play these events and the younger, newer bands who used to make up part of their audience. Nobody will ever reach the level of Shellac or Fugazi ever again - the infrastructure which allowed them to build global audiences is gone. As soon as the bands who are trotted out each time are retired, this type of event is going to disappear completely. If some new blood was allowed to find a wider audience, it would actually add a new dimension which would probably be beneficial to ATP in the long run.


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Re: ATP Nightmare before Christmas

Postby honeyisfunny on Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:56 pm

I think there's 2 points being made here that aren't connected to each other. The Shellac ATP will be a blast. The one 10 years ago was a fantastic summer camp and some of the best gigs I have ever seen took place at it. I can't speak for anyone else but I'm not criticising the event or the people who run it, quite the opposite.

I'm just pointing out that the festival has had an adverse effect on the lowest-rung of 'underground' music in the UK in that it's pushed it to a separate level below that of what would have once been comparable music (in terms of how the music is presented and made) in the US. I don't think that's something that's deliberate but it's certainly taken place.
There's a assumption amongst people outside of the UK and some of the more mainstream festival-going crowds in the UK that the same opportunities are there for UK bands as US bands and so any failure to thrive is the bands' fault. Maybe it's because of the perceived similarities and connections between the UK and the US but this assumption is simply not true. Sure, some UK bands go and tour in the States but it costs a fortune to do it so those bands are invariably ones that are connected to larger labels - and by "larger" I don't mean "major", I just mean labels or management or publishers that are more able to front money to a band that isn't just for making records. Bands like Male Bonding (Sub Pop) and Lovvers (Witchita) or Mogwai (who do well from publishing) are good examples of that.
But if you are part of a cottage-industry music-making world in the UK and you want to just tour in a van and make records that sell a few hundred copies and you're happy with that then your horizons are really small. Matt already mentioned John Robb from the Membranes - he's written a lot of very relevant articles about how he's essentially written off America as a place he can go and play music and how he concentrates on other areas to tour instead because of the prohibitive Visa costs associated with doing it legit.
Up until earlier this year I played in a band that put it's music out through a Chicago label and that music sold well enough that we were able to look at touring the East Coast. The Visa alone for that tour cost nearly $3000 - for a 10 day tour. That's without even considering flights, equipment hire etc. My inability to rationalise that type of expense and my reluctance to change how we did the band so we could get someone else to advance us money to do the tour meant I ended up having to quit.
The opposite case isn't true though - if you're in a band in the US and you put out a record and there is interest overseas and sell a few hundred copies then it is feasible that you could go and play there without it bankrupting you. I played a show last night with Crazy Spirit, I doubt those guys will sell thousands of records and they're playing the same fleapits we all do but they're playing them overseas and they're having fun, getting out there and doing it on their own terms because the barriers aren't the same for them.
This feeling among most of my friends and contemporaries in the UK isn't just about ATP, it's about a long and constant battle to get people to take DIY music in the UK seriously and to show those that make it the same respect as they would bands from overseas. This discussion could have taken place in any number of threads, it's just that the ATP one has been something of a catalyst for bringing it out which has blurred the edges of things so it could be misconstrued that it's a direct criticism of the festival which I think really isn't the case here, not from my perspective anyhow.


154 wrote:Certain fractions of the UK scene have developed a bit of a reputation around here for being a bit touchy/resentful, more than any other region I've noticed. It's kind of intriguing.


If you think caring passionately about what you do and how what you do interacts with other people is touchy or resentful then I can live with that. I've tried to explain why some people might feel this way above so I hope that that satisfies your intrigue just a little.
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Re: ATP Nightmare before Christmas

Postby honeyisfunny on Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:19 pm

As an addition to that, ATP's success over time (and Our Band Could Be Your Life and countless documentaries about bands from the 80s/90s) has meant that that American, punk rock model for doing a band is familiar to more people now. I know people who were music fans and gig goers who had countless opportunities to see a band like Fugazi (for example) 10, 15 years ago but at that time that band and bands that operated in the same way were simply not on their radar. Now though, if Fugazi reformed and played they'd be shitting themselves with excitement and they'd go and they'd love it. ATP has certainly helped to place importance on this type of music and how it was/is made. That's great on one hand but on the other hand it's had the effect of almost freezing time on that way of making music and that way of operating as a band, of making it a historical document. So you get bands that lived out of a van for 15 years, selling records cheap and playing shows as their existence, reforming and playing to an audience at ATP. But they don't live like that anymore and their band isn't their life anymore because they're older and the band broke up 10, 20 years back. Everyone in the crowd understands the historical context of the band, but it's just that - historical. It's frozen in time. It's not that it's not great, some reunion shows I have seen have been fucking incredible (Jesus Lizard, Slint, Sleep all blew my mind)
The irony is that there are hundreds of bands still doing it the way those bands used to- not because they've not 'made it' yet but because of the same principles and ethics that led the bands of 20, 30 years ago to do it this way. To them it's not a historical moment frozen in time, it's actually happening now. That's what's so frustrating - ATP has contributed to there being this growing audience of people who like this music and understand it's whys and hows and relate to it but for some reason don't feel compelled to seek out current music that does the same thing.
That's obviously the fault of the crowd concerned and not the fault of the Festival or the curators but the disconnect between seeing a great punk rock band reform and play a shopping mall to a thousand people and then seeing a band touring in a Transit, playing with the genuine power, conviction and relevance to the present that the reformed punk band once had, on a Monday night in a pub for 20 people can sometimes be baffling.
Perhaps a separate thread though...
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Re: ATP Nightmare before Christmas

Postby Ptommydski on Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:42 pm

honeyisfunny wrote:I think there's 2 points being made here that aren't connected to each other. The Shellac ATP will be a blast. The one 10 years ago was a fantastic summer camp and some of the best gigs I have ever seen took place at it. I can't speak for anyone else but I'm not criticising the event or the people who run it, quite the opposite.

Yes, I agree with you. I went to the 2002 one, I'll try to go to this one too. I am pretty much guaranteed to like every band they will pick. I'm not criticising the event or Shellac - though I am personally using it as a jumping off point for a wider look at ATP as an entity. I'm not saying the onus is on Shellac to save independent music in the UK, I'm just making an observation about the lasting impact of these ATP events on the British music landscape.

I realise I'm being idealistic to the point of absurdity but I can't help but think that having some younger, less well known bands from the UK would actually help ATP because right now they have something which probably isn't going to be sustainable for another decade or so. The average age of the bands is going up and up, which is in part because like I said, the infrastructure which helped to build the audiences of the bigger indie bands was established pre-internet, when things were significantly different. Thus, at the moment there aren't bands who can ably slide into a Fugazi sized gulf, partially because these sort of events aren't encouraging people to find active local music.

People know and trust the word of Steve Albini in the UK partially because once upon a time they read books and articles about his bands and because he worked on an album by one of the most famous American rock bands of all time. Thus, they'd buy records by Big Black and Shellac, as well as coming out to shows and as their tastes developed, presumably checked out other similar or connected bands. Thus, when Steve picks an act like Helen Money (who is great), she's going to be exposed to a fairly large audience in the UK because a lot of people want to see Shellac and trust in the bands selected by them at ATP. Hopefully this means if she wants to come back to the UK in some other capacity, people will remember seeing her and possibly go out to a smaller show.

The above also theoretically works with local bands from the UK. If you have one relatively unheard of but good band, hopefully the Shellac audience would be open minded enough to assume that there was some logic behind said group being chosen. If they enjoyed their set, they might go out and see them next time the band plays near them. They might also enjoy the other bands on the same label and/or their tour-mates. Thus, it could theoretically get to the stage whereby younger bands start to be more of a draw for festivals like ATP - events that are currently in danger of stagnating and/or being out of worthy successors when the older groups have started to retire.
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Re: ATP Nightmare before Christmas

Postby jeff_fox on Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:58 pm

This thread needs way more discussion about how fucking awesome it is that Bear Claw is playing.

Bear Claw is playing! Fucking awesome!
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Re: ATP Nightmare before Christmas

Postby Ptommydski on Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:01 pm

Yeah, Bear Claw rule!
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Re: ATP Nightmare before Christmas

Postby honeyisfunny on Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:10 pm

EmpireStateTroopers wrote:This thread needs way more discussion about how fucking awesome it is that Bear Claw is playing.

Bear Claw is playing! Fucking awesome!


Fucking right. Still no sign of Complete though. Must be a contractual thing they're ironing out.
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Re: ATP Nightmare before Christmas

Postby Auntie Ovipositor on Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:04 pm

Ptommydski wrote:the infrastructure which helped to build the audiences of the bigger indie bands was established pre-internet, when things were significantly different. Thus, at the moment there aren't bands who can ably slide into a Fugazi sized gulf, partially because these sort of events aren't encouraging people to find active local music.


It is so much easier to get music out to people who might enjoy it now than it ever was in the pre-internet age. This argument makes no sense to me. Are you saying that bands can't get big now in the same way? I'm not clear.
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Re: ATP Nightmare before Christmas

Postby elclamp on Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:54 am

Been browsing a lot of this thread over the last week or so, and logged on this morning to break my lurking duck, only to find that Mr Summerlin had said everything I was thinking of saying, and in more detail too.

Obviously ATP's paying demographic is ageing, and they haven't figured out how to deal with this.

Still, there is one outstanding issue: which country is better? Maybe we could just bump that one over to AskTMidgett?
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Re: ATP Nightmare before Christmas

Postby fortissimorecords on Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:38 am

Bands from mainland Europe have it tougher than the Brits. At least being in a UK band, you can tour pretty much every country in Western Europe and be greeted with open arms. You are paid well, and given food and decent beds. Most underground bands who tour the UK are paid less than what was agreed (normally not even covering costs), and given some crisps (if lucky), a few bits of bread, and a wooden floor to sleep on. You all know it's true.

I have tried to book tours for underground Euro bands in the UK, and it's always been extremely hard. Promoters who would gladly put on a underground US band I was booking (Neptune, Parts and Labor, Dalek), would simply ignore a mail about unknown European bands. Even booking for well known bands like ZU was a problem in the UK.

I've played in a UK underground band for almost 10 years, and toured Europe countless amounts of times. It's 100 times better than touring the UK, so we focus all our energy on playing there. I could set up a US tour with no major problems, but to do it legitimately would cost a lot of money, and I know for a fact the US promoters do not treat bands well (I live in NYC). I would treat a US tour like a holiday, because it's a personal dream to play there.

Oh yeah, ATP once asked us to support '!!!' for £50, but they cancelled on us the day before, as they "found a band who could draw more people". Whatever, it was cheap shit thing to do, but this happens in the music industry all the time, and we're used to it.
I had been to every atp from mogwai right up until the thruston moore one, but eventually stopped going because they were becoming expensive, predictable and less exclusive. A lot of people I know share the same view.

Saying that, I like Shellac, and they will definitely pick a good line up, even if they wrongly believe McLusky are the only good UK band.
Maybe Albini and the boys could consider booking everyone's favourite UK band, 'BILGE PUMP', then we won't have to whinge at you.

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