ATP Nightmare before Christmas

[Dudley]

Also, hip priest, I reckon that the price of "big" gigs (in London, the Forum, Troxy, Brixton Academy et al) has at least doubled in that period. Not saying that that justifies anything, but ATP isn't alone.

It also feels like the number of festivals has at least doubled in the same period. In ATP's favour, there's not much overlap between the bands at ATP and at virtually all other UK festivals.

[Luzwei]

Operating costs haven't risen by 80%. Bands aren't getting paid 80% more than they were 10 years ago. Nor are sound guys, bar staff, cleaners, security etc etc. Air fares haven't increased by 80%. Anyone getting paid 80% more than they were 10 years ago for the same job?

I am making over 100% more doing carpentry than I was 10 years ago.

The price of gas is about 250% higher than it was 10 years ago.

I could list plenty more examples of things that cost way more then they did 10 years ago if you want.

I don't know the specifics of insurance for a festival like ATP but judging by how much insurance rates have skyrocketed in all other fields, I would assume it's probably over 80% if not much higher then it was 10 years ago. - in the U.S., medical liability went up 92.3% from 2000-2010. Personal health insurance went up 114% from 2000-2010. These are just the first two fields I looked at. I know that a liability policy for an independent subcontractor here in Mass. has more than doubled in the last 10 years.

Yes. Sure. But be sure to take into the consideration the percentages of that cost in the whole amount as well. I'm pretty sure the 80% of all the costs are related on band costs as in band fees. Sure, the inflation has given higher energy costs, higher food and drinks costs and things like that. But still the bands take away the most amounts on money on a festival of that size. No?

[tallchris]

Operating costs haven't risen by 80%. Bands aren't getting paid 80% more than they were 10 years ago. Nor are sound guys, bar staff, cleaners, security etc etc. Air fares haven't increased by 80%. Anyone getting paid 80% more than they were 10 years ago for the same job?

I am making over 100% more doing carpentry than I was 10 years ago.

The price of gas is about 250% higher than it was 10 years ago.

I could list plenty more examples of things that cost way more then they did 10 years ago if you want.

I don't know the specifics of insurance for a festival like ATP but judging by how much insurance rates have skyrocketed in all other fields, I would assume it's probably over 80% if not much higher then it was 10 years ago. - in the U.S., medical liability went up 92.3% from 2000-2010. Personal health insurance went up 114% from 2000-2010. These are just the first two fields I looked at. I know that a liability policy for an independent subcontractor here in Mass. has more than doubled in the last 10 years.

Yes. Sure. But be sure to take into the consideration the percentages of that cost in the whole amount as well. I'm pretty sure the 80% of all the costs are related on band costs as in band fees. Sure, the inflation has given higher energy costs, higher food and drinks costs and things like that. But still the bands take away the most amounts on money on a festival of that size. No?

The bands are probably taking more because it costs more to fly over, more to rent a car/van to get to the venue, more to rent gear, more to eat and drink while out there. And most bands are only breaking even because of shows and merch sales, not record sales any longer.

If this wasn't in late-November, I think my wife and I would go out for this, but that doesn't exactly seem like the best time of year to try and make our first trip overseas.

[holmes]

Armchair analysis: I think it's just basic crap that has happened over the past 10 years (primarily every economy taking a shit, the music industry going tits up, along with rising operating costs) that has lead to an 80 pound increase.

Operating costs haven't risen by 80%. Bands aren't getting paid 80% more than they were 10 years ago. Nor are sound guys, bar staff, cleaners, security etc etc. Air fares haven't increased by 80%. Anyone getting paid 80% more than they were 10 years ago for the same job?

So 180 GBP is roughly $282.00. That covers festival entry and accommodation. Here in Chicago, we have the Pitchfork festival coming up: that's three days, and a 3 day ticket costs $110.00. Now, let's say you wanted to stay somewhere in Chicago. The cheapest hotel will cost you around $150.00, while if you really wanted to have a cavalier experience, you'd check into the Heart 'O Chicago motel for approximately $60.00 a night.

The accomodation at ATP is WELL below hotel-level. It's barely hostel-level. You're lucky if the heating works, the bedding is virtually non-existent and you're still sharing a bathroom with at least 3 others, whether they're you're friends or not. I'm not bitching, it's adequate for a festival, but you can't compare it with staying in a hotel.

10 years later, things cost more money.

Not 80% more they don't.

I'm not trying to be a twat...

Good job anyway

Hmm, not sure why you are giving me shit, hip priest, when I am total agreement with what you have written, but feel free to suck my dick any way.

[Luzwei]

Operating costs haven't risen by 80%. Bands aren't getting paid 80% more than they were 10 years ago. Nor are sound guys, bar staff, cleaners, security etc etc. Air fares haven't increased by 80%. Anyone getting paid 80% more than they were 10 years ago for the same job?

I am making over 100% more doing carpentry than I was 10 years ago.

The price of gas is about 250% higher than it was 10 years ago.

I could list plenty more examples of things that cost way more then they did 10 years ago if you want.

I don't know the specifics of insurance for a festival like ATP but judging by how much insurance rates have skyrocketed in all other fields, I would assume it's probably over 80% if not much higher then it was 10 years ago. - in the U.S., medical liability went up 92.3% from 2000-2010. Personal health insurance went up 114% from 2000-2010. These are just the first two fields I looked at. I know that a liability policy for an independent subcontractor here in Mass. has more than doubled in the last 10 years.

Yes. Sure. But be sure to take into the consideration the percentages of that cost in the whole amount as well. I'm pretty sure the 80% of all the costs are related on band costs as in band fees. Sure, the inflation has given higher energy costs, higher food and drinks costs and things like that. But still the bands take away the most amounts on money on a festival of that size. No?

The bands are probably taking more because it costs more to fly over, more to rent a car/van to get to the venue, more to rent gear, more to eat and drink while out there. And most bands are only breaking even because of shows and merch sales, not record sales any longer.

Then the only thing that makes instant sense to me is that it has to be backed by something to break it even. Like tourism related backing project being a festival. Where is the calculation then?

[tallchris]

Operating costs haven't risen by 80%. Bands aren't getting paid 80% more than they were 10 years ago. Nor are sound guys, bar staff, cleaners, security etc etc. Air fares haven't increased by 80%. Anyone getting paid 80% more than they were 10 years ago for the same job?

I am making over 100% more doing carpentry than I was 10 years ago.

The price of gas is about 250% higher than it was 10 years ago.

I could list plenty more examples of things that cost way more then they did 10 years ago if you want.

I don't know the specifics of insurance for a festival like ATP but judging by how much insurance rates have skyrocketed in all other fields, I would assume it's probably over 80% if not much higher then it was 10 years ago. - in the U.S., medical liability went up 92.3% from 2000-2010. Personal health insurance went up 114% from 2000-2010. These are just the first two fields I looked at. I know that a liability policy for an independent subcontractor here in Mass. has more than doubled in the last 10 years.

Yes. Sure. But be sure to take into the consideration the percentages of that cost in the whole amount as well. I'm pretty sure the 80% of all the costs are related on band costs as in band fees. Sure, the inflation has given higher energy costs, higher food and drinks costs and things like that. But still the bands take away the most amounts on money on a festival of that size. No?

The bands are probably taking more because it costs more to fly over, more to rent a car/van to get to the venue, more to rent gear, more to eat and drink while out there. And most bands are only breaking even because of shows and merch sales, not record sales any longer.

Then the only thing that makes instant sense to me is that it has to be backed by something to break it even. Like tourism related backing project being a festival. Where is the calculation then?

The promoters are putting up money for guarantees, sound, lighting, staff, venue, etc. They're also trying to make profit so they can keep doing these events. This is a business at the end of the day, it's not like the PRFBBQ where no one is making a profit.

[Luzwei]

Operating costs haven't risen by 80%. Bands aren't getting paid 80% more than they were 10 years ago. Nor are sound guys, bar staff, cleaners, security etc etc. Air fares haven't increased by 80%. Anyone getting paid 80% more than they were 10 years ago for the same job?

I am making over 100% more doing carpentry than I was 10 years ago.

The price of gas is about 250% higher than it was 10 years ago.

I could list plenty more examples of things that cost way more then they did 10 years ago if you want.

I don't know the specifics of insurance for a festival like ATP but judging by how much insurance rates have skyrocketed in all other fields, I would assume it's probably over 80% if not much higher then it was 10 years ago. - in the U.S., medical liability went up 92.3% from 2000-2010. Personal health insurance went up 114% from 2000-2010. These are just the first two fields I looked at. I know that a liability policy for an independent subcontractor here in Mass. has more than doubled in the last 10 years.

Yes. Sure. But be sure to take into the consideration the percentages of that cost in the whole amount as well. I'm pretty sure the 80% of all the costs are related on band costs as in band fees. Sure, the inflation has given higher energy costs, higher food and drinks costs and things like that. But still the bands take away the most amounts on money on a festival of that size. No?

The bands are probably taking more because it costs more to fly over, more to rent a car/van to get to the venue, more to rent gear, more to eat and drink while out there. And most bands are only breaking even because of shows and merch sales, not record sales any longer.

Then the only thing that makes instant sense to me is that it has to be backed by something to break it even. Like tourism related backing project being a festival. Where is the calculation then?

The promoters are putting up money for guarantees, sound, lighting, staff, venue, etc. They're also trying to make profit so they can keep doing these events. This is a business at the end of the day, it's not like the PRFBBQ where no one is making a profit.

But that's a really reasonable ticket price in my book. I'm just say is all, it's a really delicate calculation and although I'm sure they are making profit, they are obviously good at it. We have three day festivals here in Cro that cost let's say around that number if you subtract the sleeping part and they still go hiatus in a year or two because they say they are losing money. And the costs in Croatia for all the things related to costs are lower. We have lover energy costs, cheaper food, cheaper lighting and PA's costs.

[tallchris]

Operating costs haven't risen by 80%. Bands aren't getting paid 80% more than they were 10 years ago. Nor are sound guys, bar staff, cleaners, security etc etc. Air fares haven't increased by 80%. Anyone getting paid 80% more than they were 10 years ago for the same job?

I am making over 100% more doing carpentry than I was 10 years ago.

The price of gas is about 250% higher than it was 10 years ago.

I could list plenty more examples of things that cost way more then they did 10 years ago if you want.

I don't know the specifics of insurance for a festival like ATP but judging by how much insurance rates have skyrocketed in all other fields, I would assume it's probably over 80% if not much higher then it was 10 years ago. - in the U.S., medical liability went up 92.3% from 2000-2010. Personal health insurance went up 114% from 2000-2010. These are just the first two fields I looked at. I know that a liability policy for an independent subcontractor here in Mass. has more than doubled in the last 10 years.

Yes. Sure. But be sure to take into the consideration the percentages of that cost in the whole amount as well. I'm pretty sure the 80% of all the costs are related on band costs as in band fees. Sure, the inflation has given higher energy costs, higher food and drinks costs and things like that. But still the bands take away the most amounts on money on a festival of that size. No?

The bands are probably taking more because it costs more to fly over, more to rent a car/van to get to the venue, more to rent gear, more to eat and drink while out there. And most bands are only breaking even because of shows and merch sales, not record sales any longer.

Then the only thing that makes instant sense to me is that it has to be backed by something to break it even. Like tourism related backing project being a festival. Where is the calculation then?

The promoters are putting up money for guarantees, sound, lighting, staff, venue, etc. They're also trying to make profit so they can keep doing these events. This is a business at the end of the day, it's not like the PRFBBQ where no one is making a profit.

But that's a really reasonable ticket price in my book. I'm just say is all, it's a really delicate calculation and although I'm sure they are making profit, they are obviously good at it. We have three day festivals here in Cro that cost let's say around that number if you subtract the sleeping part and they still go hiatus in a year or two because they say they are losing money. And the costs in Croatia for all the things related to costs are lower. We have lover energy costs, cheaper food, cheaper lighting and PA's costs.

Okay Lu, I think we're agreeing here that the 2012 Shellac ATP ticket is worth the cost, in relation to the 2002 Shellac ATP.

I mean, fuck, look at the line up from 2002:

Arcwelder
Blonde Redhead
Bonnie 'Prince' Billy
Brick Layer Cake
Cheap Trick
Consonant
Danielson
David Lovering
Dead Moon
Dianogah
Do Make Say Think
Flour
Godspeed You! Black Emperor
High Dependency Unit
Lonesome Organist
Low
Mark Robinson
Melt Banana
Mission of Burma
Nina Nastasia
Oxes
Plush
P.W. Long
Rachel's
Robbie Fulks
Shannon Wright
Shellac
Shipping News
Silkworm
Bill Callahan (Smog)
The Breeders
The Ex Orkest
The Fall
The New Year
The Upper Crust
Three Second Kiss
Threnody Ensemble
Versus
Wire
Zeni Geva

Even in 2002, you would have paid $8-$20 to see these bands on their own. An equivalent lineup 10 years later would likely be $10-$30 to see on their own.

[Luzwei]

Operating costs haven't risen by 80%. Bands aren't getting paid 80% more than they were 10 years ago. Nor are sound guys, bar staff, cleaners, security etc etc. Air fares haven't increased by 80%. Anyone getting paid 80% more than they were 10 years ago for the same job?

I am making over 100% more doing carpentry than I was 10 years ago.

The price of gas is about 250% higher than it was 10 years ago.

I could list plenty more examples of things that cost way more then they did 10 years ago if you want.

I don't know the specifics of insurance for a festival like ATP but judging by how much insurance rates have skyrocketed in all other fields, I would assume it's probably over 80% if not much higher then it was 10 years ago. - in the U.S., medical liability went up 92.3% from 2000-2010. Personal health insurance went up 114% from 2000-2010. These are just the first two fields I looked at. I know that a liability policy for an independent subcontractor here in Mass. has more than doubled in the last 10 years.

Yes. Sure. But be sure to take into the consideration the percentages of that cost in the whole amount as well. I'm pretty sure the 80% of all the costs are related on band costs as in band fees. Sure, the inflation has given higher energy costs, higher food and drinks costs and things like that. But still the bands take away the most amounts on money on a festival of that size. No?

The bands are probably taking more because it costs more to fly over, more to rent a car/van to get to the venue, more to rent gear, more to eat and drink while out there. And most bands are only breaking even because of shows and merch sales, not record sales any longer.

Then the only thing that makes instant sense to me is that it has to be backed by something to break it even. Like tourism related backing project being a festival. Where is the calculation then?

The promoters are putting up money for guarantees, sound, lighting, staff, venue, etc. They're also trying to make profit so they can keep doing these events. This is a business at the end of the day, it's not like the PRFBBQ where no one is making a profit.

But that's a really reasonable ticket price in my book. I'm just say is all, it's a really delicate calculation and although I'm sure they are making profit, they are obviously good at it. We have three day festivals here in Cro that cost let's say around that number if you subtract the sleeping part and they still go hiatus in a year or two because they say they are losing money. And the costs in Croatia for all the things related to costs are lower. We have lover energy costs, cheaper food, cheaper lighting and PA's costs.

Okay Lu, I think we're agreeing here that the 2012 Shellac ATP ticket is worth the cost, in relation to the 2002 Shellac ATP.

I mean, fuck, look at the line up from 2002:

Arcwelder
Blonde Redhead
Bonnie 'Prince' Billy
Brick Layer Cake
Cheap Trick
Consonant
Danielson
David Lovering
Dead Moon
Dianogah
Do Make Say Think
Flour
Godspeed You! Black Emperor
High Dependency Unit
Lonesome Organist
Low
Mark Robinson
Melt Banana
Mission of Burma
Nina Nastasia
Oxes
Plush
P.W. Long
Rachel's
Robbie Fulks
Shannon Wright
Shellac
Shipping News
Silkworm
Bill Callahan (Smog)
The Breeders
The Ex Orkest
The Fall
The New Year
The Upper Crust
Three Second Kiss
Threnody Ensemble
Versus
Wire
Zeni Geva

Even in 2002, you would have paid $8-$20 to see these bands on their own. An equivalent lineup 10 years later would likely be $10-$30 to see on their own.

Hey Chris, nowhere in any letter I have wrote am I disputing to worth of those 180 pounds. It has been my wish for the past couple of years to make it to one of those things as this is probably the best festival in the world for the music I listen. Let's make no mistake about that!

[mattgringo]

Yes. Sure. But be sure to take into the consideration the percentages of that cost in the whole amount as well. I'm pretty sure the 80% of all the costs are related on band costs as in band fees. Sure, the inflation has given higher energy costs, higher food and drinks costs and things like that. But still the bands take away the most amounts on money on a festival of that size. No?

I drove Lightning Bolt in 2004 and they got paid just over £1000 for each weekend. When a UK band on my label got picked by the fans to play in 2009, they got paid £500.

[Luzwei]

Yes. Sure. But be sure to take into the consideration the percentages of that cost in the whole amount as well. I'm pretty sure the 80% of all the costs are related on band costs as in band fees. Sure, the inflation has given higher energy costs, higher food and drinks costs and things like that. But still the bands take away the most amounts on money on a festival of that size. No?

I drove Lightning Bolt in 2004 and they got paid just over £1000 for each weekend. When a UK band on my label got picked by the fans to play in 2009, they got paid £500.

Matt, I don't know how to respond to that. I mean, although I have experience in product management, I have no experience in festival management. I can't say if that's a lot of money or not. For me it is. I don't know how much do bigger indie bands get paid.

[Ptommydski]

Nobody will argue that it's not "worth" the money (I was at ATP 2002, it literally changed my life) but regardless, it's a chunk of cash. I don't know about everybody else but I'm finding that pretty much everyone I know personally is feeling the pinch from the global recession(s). In this economy, a lot of people to whom this would mean an awful lot won't be going. On the one hand, sucks to be them. It costs a lot of money to bring all of these bands over. On the other, that might be an argument to use a handful of UK bands who would definitely fit in at this kind of event.

I recently attended an ATP (cost £120) and then the Gringofest in Nottingham (£10), saw about the same number of good bands. As things stand financially, I feel like this is further widening the gulf between ATP and its original audience. Not a criticism as such, just an observation.

[hip priest]

Nobody will argue that it's not "worth" the money (I was at ATP 2002, it literally changed my life) but regardless, it's a chunk of cash. I don't know about everybody else but I'm finding that pretty much everyone I know personally is feeling the pinch from the global recession(s). In this economy, a lot of people to whom this would mean an awful lot won't be going. On the one hand, sucks to be them. It costs a lot of money to bring all of these bands over. On the other, that might be an argument to use a handful of UK bands who would definitely fit in at this kind of event.

I recently attended an ATP (cost £120) and then the Gringofest in Nottingham (£10), saw about the same number of good bands. As things stand financially, I feel like this is further widening the gulf between ATP and its original audience. Not a criticism as such, just an observation.

Tommy's nailed it.

You can argue that costs are higher and the price of gigs/festivals is rising across the board, but back in the early days, ATP was superb value compared to all the other shit going on. It was an ALTERNATIVE to all that shit. Now it's the same price, if not higher than all that shit.

The ticket price has been rising stealthily for the last 5 years, but I never gave a toss because I never wanted to go. The reason it's so stark now is that it seems to be a move back to the "boutique" roots, but anyone that wants to go is being punished for ATP paying out shitloads of cash for Slayer, The National, The Shins, The Magnetic Fields, MBV, Portishead etc etc over the last few years

[MrFood]

... anyone that wants to go is being punished for ATP paying out shitloads of cash for Slayer, The National, The Shins, The Magnetic Fields, MBV, Portishead etc etc over the last few years

So are you saying that ATP has never actually recouped the costs of those previous events, and this expense is being passed onto all future audiences?

That would mean ATP has been operating at a staggering loss for a long time, surely?

I'm loathed to get into discussions of the nuts and bolts of things like this, because most of the time we're just throwing wild speculation around the place, and I just know that one or several people actually in the know are reading through all this and shaking their heads, murmuring the word 'retards' to themselves over and over.

[mattgringo]

Matt, I don't know how to respond to that. I mean, although I have experience in product management, I have no experience in festival management. I can't say if that's a lot of money or not. For me it is. I don't know how much do bigger indie bands get paid.

Hello my fellow, I wasn't really trying to make a point, just sharing some solid information on what I know bands got paid. If I was to elaborate, then I think it shows that nowhere near 80% of an ATP ticket price goes to the artists playing the event. That is not to say that I think ATP are creaming huge amounts of profit. For example, 20% of the ticket price alone goes straight to the tax man in the form of VAT.

If Shellac choose an interesting line-up which includes a crop of contemporary British artists, then I might consider going again. If it is a retread of 2002, but with 10% less to see for my money (yes, the line up has actually got smaller!), no thanks.

[Ptommydski]

I'm loathed to get into discussions

"Loath".

I don't doubt it's a fair enough price, as I said. It's still a bit expensive given the current financial climate. It's become the festival of the comfortable middle class music aficionado, which I suppose is fine by me because I can still afford it. Lots of my friends can't though, including a bunch of people on this forum.

[Luzwei]

Hello my fellow, I wasn't really trying to make a point, just sharing some solid information on what I know bands got paid. If I was to elaborate, then I think it shows that nowhere near 80% of an ATP ticket price goes to the artists playing the event. That is not to say that I think ATP are creaming huge amounts of profit. For example, 20% of the ticket price alone goes straight to the tax man in the form of VAT.

Oh yeah. I was dumb stating that 80% from my virtual dumb hat. I have no idea although I would love to know stuff like that. I still think it's a great festival and would love to go there once.

[hip priest]

So are you saying that ATP has never actually recouped the costs of those previous events, and this expense is being passed onto all future audiences?

That would mean ATP has been operating at a staggering loss for a long time, surely?

I don't know about that, but you don't need access to their balance sheets to notice the last three weekend events have either been half sold, postponed, moved or downsized.

I've no real beef here (aside from the lack of grassroots support and the monopolising of promoting overseas acts that others have mentioned) and I genuinely wish ATP well, I just feel that they've lost their way in the last few years, losing sight of what it was they did so well in the first place.

[Piccoman2]

Bear Claw is playing this. We're very excited. We cannot wait...

Thanks to Shellac for asking us.

Scott
Bear Claw

[Dave N.]

Bear Claw is playing this. We're very excited. We cannot wait...

Thanks to Shellac for asking us.

Scott
Bear Claw

Outstanding!