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The Fearsome And Mammoth Résumé/Cover Letter Help Thread

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Re: The Fearsome And Mammoth Résumé/Cover Letter Help Thread

Postby Andy on Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:22 pm

I wrote a book on job hunting for technical people, and I'm working on a second one that's just about resumes. I feel like this is crossing the streams to post to Electrical about this shit, but what the hell.

Jodi S. wrote:A lot of jobs are asking for a salary history/requirement.


Do not confuse "salary requirements" with "salary history." They are not the same. Salary requirements are perfectly reasonable to ask for. It's what you're looking to make, and that can be a big range. They want to know how much you're wanting to make.

Salary history is what you made in the past, and is nobody's damn business. Do not give it to them. The aforementioned "anchor number" is one big reason why. Best article on the subject I've found: http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/hasalary.htm

When I give a range in a cover letter, is it OK to say "My desired salary is in the XXXX to XXXX range, dependent on what benefits your company offers"? Because if a place is going to pay for my health insurance in full, then that's a whole different ballgame.


I think that's a great way to put it. I might even put it as "XXXX to YYYY, assuming a benefits package that includes X, Y and Z." That's part of your expectations.

I was wondering if anyone knew whether it was still standard practice to use a 1 page résumé or whether spreading out to a second page was acceptable.


No, your resume does not have to fit on one page if you have more than one page of interesting material to put on it. The key is that every single thing on there has to be of interest to the reader. http://petdance.com/2010/11/does-your-r ... he-answer/

would it be so bad to write "ideally i would like to work between so & so many hours & make from x to x number or euros but i am flexible & always willing to consider other possibilites"?


Don't do that. It gives them a reason to exclude you from the start. Get in for an interview, let them fall in love with you, and then ask for your part. The point of the resume and cover letter is to get them to call you in for an interview so you can advance to the next stage. There should be nothing in there that could impede that.

Houlihan wrote:Dudes. Always wear a suit.

Yes yes yes. You can't go wrong in a suit, but you can come across as not taking things seriously, or not giving the process the respect it deserves, if you go too casual.

The other drum I beat in blog posts is numbers, numbers, numbers. Quantify everything about your job that you can. Yeah, if you can say "I saved the company $25,000/year because I did X", that's great, but even without that, you can use numbers to give detail to what it is you did. Don't say you processed paperwork, say that you processed N forms/day. Don't just say you worked on a big team project, say that you worked on a 7-month project with a team of 12. For all I know reading it, "big team project" could mean it was a week with one other person. If I as the reader have to guess at details, my guesses will not be in your favor.

Details matter in making your resume more interesting, but there's a more cynical reason, too. Numerals also draw the eye.

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Re: The Fearsome And Mammoth Résumé/Cover Letter Help Thread

Postby BusBus on Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:29 pm

Good stuff, Andy. Thanks for sharing.
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Re: The Fearsome And Mammoth Résumé/Cover Letter Help Thread

Postby deep.BTUz on Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:24 pm

Andy wrote:
Do not confuse "salary requirements" with "salary history." They are not the same. Salary requirements are perfectly reasonable to ask for. It's what you're looking to make, and that can be a big range. They want to know how much you're wanting to make.

Salary history is what you made in the past, and is nobody's damn business. Do not give it to them. The aforementioned "anchor number" is one big reason why. Best article on the subject I've found: http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/hasalary.htm




Terrible advice. Yes, salary history and salary requirements are different things, but failing to disclose your current salary is considered shady. Many of my clients won't deal at all with people who won't disclose their salary. Many of my top tier companies want the last three years compensation history (base/bonus). I have clients who ask to see a recent pay stub before they make an offer, and if that pay stub does not match what the candidate wrote on his initial application they will reascend their candidacy. These are Global Fortune 500 companies.

It's important to remember in a job search that it's not about how you think things should be done. When you're the one signing the checks you can do it that way. Your free to value your work at whatever you want to, but withholding information when directly asked is a mistake. I understand that is surrendering leverage in terms of a bargaining position, but frankly you are doing yourself far more harm by dodging the question.
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Re: The Fearsome And Mammoth Résumé/Cover Letter Help Thread

Postby Andy on Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:59 pm

deep.BTUz wrote:I have clients who ask to see a recent pay stub before they make an offer, and if that pay stub does not match what the candidate wrote on his initial application they will reascend their candidacy.


I totally get that. They want to make sure that they're not getting screwed in their screwing of the candidate.

deep.BTUz wrote:I understand that is surrendering leverage in terms of a bargaining position, but frankly you are doing yourself far more harm by dodging the question.


It's about more than bargaining position.

It's about more than giving over information to the company so that they can make flawed comparisons about my value as a worker.

It's about the fact that it's nobody's fucking business what you've made in the past.

It's about starting a relationship with the company on equal footing, and not having an adversarial relationship company having all power over the employee.

Yes, I understand that there are big Fortune Whatever companies that require this, and Lord knows you can't go outside those constraints. I understand that saying "I'm sorry, that's confidential" may get you shut out from the start. And if that's not something that a job-seeker is willing to do, I can't fault them for it.

There is no legitimate reason for a hiring company to know your salary history. The only reason to ask for salary history, and not just salary requirements, is to see if they can lowball the employee into taking a lower-paying job.

A smart company knows enough about its own business to be able to say "This is what we feel you will contribute to the company. Based on what we need, and what you bring to the table, we think you're worth $60K/year." If that's what the employee is worth, then they're fools not to pay that. But lowballing is short-sighted and foolish because it sets up the employee to find out that holy shit, they could be making $60K but these guys are only paying me $50K. If people are really the most important asset to a company, then setting up their new hires for turnover is stupid.

Anyone who gives over their salary history should know what that is setting up as a relationship with their employer. They should know that they're trying to work for a company that is dumb enough to believe that salary history means anything. They should know that they're going to work for a company that wants to do whatever is possible to squeeze as much out of the employee as possible.

I can't tell you how many times I've talked to people about salary history and they're amazed that the world won't end if they don't fill in that little box on an application. It's like telling a band "There are alternatives to getting fucked by a major label."

There's no requirement to give over salary history. It's only inertia and the hiring company holding the strings that require you to do so. There are plenty of right-thinking companies out there that are able to determine employee value without requiring history.

But it's each person's choice to give it up or not.
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Re: The Fearsome And Mammoth Résumé/Cover Letter Help Thread

Postby madmanmunt on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:20 pm

deep.BTUz wrote:Terrible advice. Yes, salary history and salary requirements are different things, but failing to disclose your current salary is considered shady. Many of my clients won't deal at all with people who won't disclose their salary. Many of my top tier companies want the last three years compensation history (base/bonus). I have clients who ask to see a recent pay stub before they make an offer, and if that pay stub does not match what the candidate wrote on his initial application they will reascend their candidacy. These are Global Fortune 500 companies.

It's important to remember in a job search that it's not about how you think things should be done. When you're the one signing the checks you can do it that way. Your free to value your work at whatever you want to, but withholding information when directly asked is a mistake. I understand that is surrendering leverage in terms of a bargaining position, but frankly you are doing yourself far more harm by dodging the question.


Would you divulge your billing rates for the last three years for a potential new client? The times you pulled your pants down and the other times you stuck it to them?
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Re: The Fearsome And Mammoth Résumé/Cover Letter Help Thread

Postby Marsupialized on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:21 pm

Is it proper to alert a prospective employer to a medical condition you suffer from? Say you, like most people these days, suffer from priapism, is this something that should be brought up on the resume or during conversation in the interview? Does it need to be brought up at all if it's obvious to the eye what the issue is? Could you possibly word it in such a way that it appears to be a selling point, or does that cross some sort of line, it being a disability and all? Could I sue them if they DON'T hire me? Could I sue them for simply agreeing to interview me? It seems like I should be able to. Is it proper to threaten a suit during the interview? On the phone while arranging the interview? If not threaten, elude to the fact you have sued other prospective employers for not handling your disability properly? Is it ok to ask the racial makeup of the person interviewing you? Possibly using slur, attempting to draw them into an argument where they might insult you, thus giving you grounds for another lawsuit on top of the original one?
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Re: The Fearsome And Mammoth Résumé/Cover Letter Help Thread

Postby deep.BTUz on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:34 pm

First of all employment negotiations are not the time or place to get existential.

What if the employer took the same stance as you are and were unwilling to disclose anything about the compensation for any given position? Would you like to take three days off work to interview for a position that is budgeted to pay 20% less than you are currently making? There are practical reasons things are done the way they are done.

There are people who take the stance you advocate. However if you plan on going this route I hope you're a swaggering bad ass. Like grade A credentials, top of your field, smartest guy in the room type of bad ass.

Withholding your salary history isn't the great masterstroke you think it is. I don't really care about the abstract philosophy behind it and neither will the people you are dealing with. There are people who do this all day everyday. Guys like me know what you are making. Not to the dollar, but we have a a pretty good idea. If you're a java developer with 10 years of experience working at AIG and applying for a job at MetLife; news flash: they have a pretty good idea what you're making. The job market is a market. It moves and balances out like any other market. It's not just some random thing. And the people who work in that market for any substantial amount of time know it well. So ask yourself, given that, is taking the stand you are advocating really worth turning the relationship adversarial?

All that "it's none of their business" stuff is nonsense. It's a concern from another sphere. Is it any of their business if I smoke pot? Of course not, but refuse a drug test and let me know how that works out for you.
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Re: The Fearsome And Mammoth Résumé/Cover Letter Help Thread

Postby deep.BTUz on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:37 pm

madmanmunt wrote:
deep.BTUz wrote:Terrible advice. Yes, salary history and salary requirements are different things, but failing to disclose your current salary is considered shady. Many of my clients won't deal at all with people who won't disclose their salary. Many of my top tier companies want the last three years compensation history (base/bonus). I have clients who ask to see a recent pay stub before they make an offer, and if that pay stub does not match what the candidate wrote on his initial application they will reascend their candidacy. These are Global Fortune 500 companies.

It's important to remember in a job search that it's not about how you think things should be done. When you're the one signing the checks you can do it that way. Your free to value your work at whatever you want to, but withholding information when directly asked is a mistake. I understand that is surrendering leverage in terms of a bargaining position, but frankly you are doing yourself far more harm by dodging the question.


Would you divulge your billing rates for the last three years for a potential new client? The times you pulled your pants down and the other times you stuck it to them?


I work contingency, but in my field, billing rates are very standardized.
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Re: The Fearsome And Mammoth Résumé/Cover Letter Help Thread

Postby Andy on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:44 pm

deep.BTUz wrote:Guys like me know what you are making. Not to the dollar, but we have a a pretty good idea. If you're a java developer with 10 years of experience working at AIG and applying for a job at MetLife; news flash: they have a pretty good idea what you're making.


All the more reason that it is unnecessary to ask.

deep.BTUz wrote:So ask yourself, given that, is taking the stand you are advocating really worth turning the relationship adversarial?


It's adversarial for the hiring company to say to me "Tell us how much you make." Just because it's Business As Usual doesn't make it less adversarial. Politely declining is just keeping things even.

deep.BTUz wrote:All that "it's none of their business" stuff is nonsense. It's a concern from another sphere. Is it any of their business if I smoke pot? Of course not, but refuse a drug test and let me know how that works out for you.


Yes, you're right, drug testing is another case of giving up privacy for no reason (in most cases).

If you're willing to say "I give up this privacy and set up a master/slave relationship with an employer", that's fine. If going to work for a company that is willing to do that counts as "works out", then go ahead.

People need to know it's a choice.
Last edited by Andy on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Fearsome And Mammoth Résumé/Cover Letter Help Thread

Postby madmanmunt on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:45 pm

deep.BTUz wrote:What if the employer took the same stance as you are and were unwilling to disclose anything about the compensation for any given position?


I don't think that is what he said.

The equivalent would be to ask the employer to give you the compensation package (base/bonus) of every person they hired for the position in question over the last three years.
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Re: The Fearsome And Mammoth Résumé/Cover Letter Help Thread

Postby deep.BTUz on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:58 pm

Andy wrote:
All the more reason that it is unnecessary to ask.


Didn't you write a book trying to help people with the process? Almost all companies ask. You're advice of refusing to answer is not a good idea for 99% of the workforce. I'm not really interested in discussing the abstract right or wrong of the interaction, I'm telling you from tens of thousands of hours of experience that handling the inquiry the way you propose probably isn't going to work out for the overwhelming majority of people.

Andy wrote:
It's adversarial for the hiring company to say to me "Tell us how much you make." Just because it's Business As Usual doesn't make it less adversarial. Politely declining is just keeping things even.



They are the ones signing the checks. If I'm going to pay someone thousands of dollars a year I wouldn't be real into the person I'm going to pay it to refusing to answer my questions or disclose facts. Like I said if you are a swaggering bad ass go for it, but it's terrible advice for 99% of job applicants.
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Re: The Fearsome And Mammoth Résumé/Cover Letter Help Thread

Postby deep.BTUz on Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:00 pm

madmanmunt wrote:
deep.BTUz wrote:What if the employer took the same stance as you are and were unwilling to disclose anything about the compensation for any given position?


I don't think that is what he said.

The equivalent would be to ask the employer to give you the compensation package (base/bonus) of every person they hired for the position in question over the last three years.


The employer in the overwhelming majority of scenarios is in the power position. They're the employer. Almost always they set the rules.
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Re: The Fearsome And Mammoth Résumé/Cover Letter Help Thread

Postby Andy on Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:18 pm

deep.BTUz wrote:Didn't you write a book trying to help people with the process?


No, I wrote a book to help people get jobs that they love. There's more to that than getting a job at any expense.

I always tell people that it's their choice about giving up their salary history.

I always explain that some companies will stop the process right there if you don't give up that information.

It's all about choice. If it doesn't bother you to piss in a jar or to give all your negotiating power to the company, that's fine. If it does bother you, but your circumstances dictate that it's more important that you get a paycheck, that's fine. We all make those choices.

If I may adapt from another work written by someone else on this board:

"I imagine these job seekers, at one end of this trench filled with runny, decaying shit. I also imagine a faceless corporate HR drone at the other end holding a fountain pen and a contract waiting to be signed. Nobody can see what’s printed on the contract. It’s too far away, and besides, the shit stench is making everybody’s eyes water. Everybody dives in the trench and they interview furiously to get to the other end. Eventually, there’s only one candidate left. He reaches for the pen, but the HR drone says 'Actually, I think you need to tell me how much you made at your last three employers. With pay stubs.' And he does of course."

I'm raising awareness. What people do with that is up to them.
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Re: The Fearsome And Mammoth Résumé/Cover Letter Help Thread

Postby deep.BTUz on Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:44 pm

Andy wrote:
deep.BTUz wrote:Didn't you write a book trying to help people with the process?


No, I wrote a book to help people get jobs that they love. There's more to that than getting a job at any expense.

I always tell people that it's their choice about giving up their salary history.

I always explain that some companies will stop the process right there if you don't give up that information.

It's all about choice. If it doesn't bother you to piss in a jar or to give all your negotiating power to the company, that's fine. If it does bother you, but your circumstances dictate that it's more important that you get a paycheck, that's fine. We all make those choices.

If I may adapt from another work written by someone else on this board:

"I imagine these job seekers, at one end of this trench filled with runny, decaying shit. I also imagine a faceless corporate HR drone at the other end holding a fountain pen and a contract waiting to be signed. Nobody can see what’s printed on the contract. It’s too far away, and besides, the shit stench is making everybody’s eyes water. Everybody dives in the trench and they interview furiously to get to the other end. Eventually, there’s only one candidate left. He reaches for the pen, but the HR drone says 'Actually, I think you need to tell me how much you made at your last three employers. With pay stubs.' And he does of course."

I'm raising awareness. What people do with that is up to them.



Of course it's a choice. Everyone knows that. I don't deal with wet behind the ears idealistic 20 somethings with stars in their eyes and no idea how business works. Steve's article is/was only relevant to the uninitiated.

Beyond that what you're doing might suck. If it's you goal to pontificate abstractly about the conditions of labor than fine; but to package it as practical advice for your everyday job applicant is ignorant and irresponsible. At least a few times a month I have to deal with someone who believes in the advice given by some dipshit author or columnist who isn't in the industry and doesn't know what they are talking about. It's always painful, and in my experience never works out for them.
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Re: The Fearsome And Mammoth Résumé/Cover Letter Help Thread

Postby deep.BTUz on Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:26 am

Angus Jung wrote:
deep.BTUz wrote: There is a general trajectory/timeline that underpins American careers, and the more you are aware of that the better off you are.

This reads like F. Scott Fitzgerald in community college, and says exactly nothing.



I should be more clear about this. Resumes, in the way this thread seems to approach them, don't mean much. There is no way of formatting a resume, in design or language, that is going to make a University of Phoenix degree not a University of Phoenix degree. Conversely there is no mistake in writing or formatting your resume (unless you severely fuck up) that is going to make a Yale degree not a Yale degree. Resumes are just a reflection of reality. Onto themselves, they mean very little. There is no way to spin experience at Jetro Cash & Carry into experience at Goldman Sachs. Worry about your career and your resume will take care of itself.

There really is a trajectory, or standardized career arch, to American professional life. Employers know what the person they want was doing at 22. They also know where they should be at 30. The fact that discussing this simple reality is illegal seems absurd to me. Everyone does it anyway, so who does it actually benefit? Yes, if you fall out of pocket, or take some sort of sabbatical or whatever, it is going to be questioned and judged. Are there exceptions? Of course, but they're exceptions. Keep in mind, real mavericks aren't applying for jobs.
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Re: The Fearsome And Mammoth Résumé/Cover Letter Help Thread

Postby Jodi S. on Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:59 am

LinkedIn people:

How important is it to have your photo on your profile?

I feel sort of weird about having one (because this is not a dating site) but maybe I shouldn't.

Thoughts?
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Re: The Fearsome And Mammoth Résumé/Cover Letter Help Thread

Postby motorbike guy on Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:25 pm

Jodi S. wrote:LinkedIn people:

How important is it to have your photo on your profile?

I feel sort of weird about having one (because this is not a dating site) but maybe I shouldn't.

Thoughts?



as you know, I don't have one, but I am neither in sales, nor am I currently looking for a job. I think linked in is good for throwing your resume up there and it gives you more room to expand on the job descriptions if your resume is getting tight on one page. I see no real benefit to having a photo there. Would you send a photo in the mail along with your resume and cover letter? probably not.
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Re: The Fearsome And Mammoth Résumé/Cover Letter Help Thread

Postby ginger on Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:47 pm

Yeah, unless you are an actor or model it isn't necessary.
But how about using one of your art photos instead?

Has anyone tried sending out one of these infographic style resumes?

http://vizualize.me/

http://inforesume.heroku.com/

Would this cut through the clutter or just be weird and confusing?
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Re: The Fearsome And Mammoth Résumé/Cover Letter Help Thread

Postby Ben Abraham on Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:24 pm

ginger wrote:Yeah, unless you are an actor or model it isn't necessary.
But how about using one of your art photos instead?

Has anyone tried sending out one of these infographic style resumes?

http://vizualize.me/

http://inforesume.heroku.com/

Would this cut through the clutter or just be weird and confusing?


These are cool concepts. I personally think these are cool, but I don't know how non artsy HR people would feel.
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Re: The Fearsome And Mammoth Résumé/Cover Letter Help Thread

Postby kerble on Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:15 pm

ginger wrote:Yeah, unless you are an actor or model it isn't necessary.
But how about using one of your art photos instead?

Has anyone tried sending out one of these infographic style resumes?

http://vizualize.me/

http://inforesume.heroku.com/

Would this cut through the clutter or just be weird and confusing?



I haven't used the sites listed above, but I did make an infographic resume for my work last year that covered quite a bit:
Image
Depending on where I had to send it, I clipped portions of it out so I wasn't talking about projects or work that had nothing to do with the job at hand. It could easily get weird or confusing, so the edited versions helped in clarity. It worked, I think. I mean, I got the job. Also, it was super fun to make.

and yes, the prf is on my resume.
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