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Fearsome and mammoth cults thread

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Re: Fearsome and mammoth cults thread

Postby oswaldwen on Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:44 pm

biscuitdough wrote:
oswaldwen wrote:Your probably correct on this. Ive always been fascinated by the minds of cult leaders. Alot of followers of cult leaders are just normal people being abused and exploited. But there something different about the mind of a cult leader. Like Manson did some shit before the murders that was incredibly ballsy.


Like pimping out teenage girls?


Not really thats just usual scumbag behavior. I was more referring to an incident were a father of one of Mansons followers put a shotgun to him told him he was about to die only for Manson to invite him to shoot. Manson then proceeded to talk to the guy about love and persuaded him to take LSD and accept the situation.
Last edited by oswaldwen on Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fearsome and mammoth cults thread

Postby Clyde on Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:50 pm

enframed wrote:
Clyde wrote:For example, while most Christian denominations are not cults


Sure they are, they are the accepted cults, currently. All religions are cults, an all began as what we consider "cults" these days.


I find a lot of atheists or the anti-religious hold this sentiment. There is a much larger conversation to be had but let me explain briefly why I don't agree.

Firstly, I don't think anybody knows or can know how all religions began. Perhaps we can looks at relatively young religions not generally regarded as cults like Mormonism or Rastafari and find cultic roots. It wouldn't surprise me a bit, honestly, although I don't know enough about either to have an opinion on the matter. But even if they (or even religions) started as cults, it doesn't follow that they all remain cults. What defines a cult is not a belief in supernatural beliefs and not all cults are religious.

A few key differences between a cult and a non-cultic religion.

-Cults are basically long term scams. They use deceptive recruiting to get people involved. If you're interested in converting to Judaism, for example, you could go to a rabbi or a practitioner and ask her what the tenets of the religion are, the practices, the costs, the expectations etc. Cults will not do this. They are vague about the beliefs or even outright lie. They may try to literally seduce somebody into joining (Children of God's "flirty fishing, for example). Once you do get involved you discover there are different levels, which you are pressured to attain by spending a lot of money.

-There are no altruistic cults. I'm not saying all religions are altruistic. There are obviously plenty of hucksters and self-serving despicable people. But there can be no cult version of Martin Luther's reformation or Martin Luther King's civil-rights advocacy. Anything a cult does is only to further the cult.
An imperfect analogy might be compare non-cultic religions to slot machines which may be a rip-off and may be destructive are more-or-less above the board whereas cults are a game of thee card monte, something you can never win, no matter how much you try.
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Re: Fearsome and mammoth cults thread

Postby jimmy two hands on Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:35 pm

Three pages and no mention of Heaven's Gate?

Image
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Re: Fearsome and mammoth cults thread

Postby Redline on Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:13 pm

oswaldwen wrote:
Manson did some shit before the murders that was incredibly ballsy

...And not-so-ballsy...
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Re: Fearsome and mammoth cults thread

Postby oswaldwen on Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:22 pm

Redline wrote:oswaldwen wrote:
Manson did some shit before the murders that was incredibly ballsy

...And not-so-ballsy...
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Still better than Koresh's album

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Re: Fearsome and mammoth cults thread

Postby seanurban on Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:27 pm

Clyde wrote:
enframed wrote:
Clyde wrote:For example, while most Christian denominations are not cults


Sure they are, they are the accepted cults, currently. All religions are cults, an all began as what we consider "cults" these days.


I find a lot of atheists or the anti-religious hold this sentiment. There is a much larger conversation to be had but let me explain briefly why I don't agree.

Firstly, I don't think anybody knows or can know how all religions began. Perhaps we can looks at relatively young religions not generally regarded as cults like Mormonism or Rastafari and find cultic roots. It wouldn't surprise me a bit, honestly, although I don't know enough about either to have an opinion on the matter. But even if they (or even religions) started as cults, it doesn't follow that they all remain cults. What defines a cult is not a belief in supernatural beliefs and not all cults are religious.

A few key differences between a cult and a non-cultic religion.

-Cults are basically long term scams. They use deceptive recruiting to get people involved. If you're interested in converting to Judaism, for example, you could go to a rabbi or a practitioner and ask her what the tenets of the religion are, the practices, the costs, the expectations etc. Cults will not do this. They are vague about the beliefs or even outright lie. They may try to literally seduce somebody into joining (Children of God's "flirty fishing, for example). Once you do get involved you discover there are different levels, which you are pressured to attain by spending a lot of money.

-There are no altruistic cults. I'm not saying all religions are altruistic. There are obviously plenty of hucksters and self-serving despicable people. But there can be no cult version of Martin Luther's reformation or Martin Luther King's civil-rights advocacy. Anything a cult does is only to further the cult.
An imperfect analogy might be compare non-cultic religions to slot machines which may be a rip-off and may be destructive are more-or-less above the board whereas cults are a game of thee card monte, something you can never win, no matter how much you try.

well said.

you all got some scary stories. i'm in love w/ this thread.
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Re: Fearsome and mammoth cults thread

Postby Redline on Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:46 am

Still better than Koresh's album

I didn't even know that existed.
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Re: Fearsome and mammoth cults thread

Postby Clyde on Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:12 am

Image

People Unlimited founders Charles Paul Brown, his wife BernaDeane Brown and James Russell Strole (or CBJ as they liked to be called) figured out how to live forever. Well,maybe Charles forgot about that because he died and CBJ is now just BJ. Oops!

Image

They will helpfully explain why they are not a cult in ways that don't actually explain why they are not a cult: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013/4/prweb10665075.htm
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Re: Fearsome and mammoth cults thread

Postby The MayorofRockNRoll on Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:14 pm

This nugget of people from my Austin years just came to mind:

http://blog.purplearth.net/1549/marketing-the-revolution-my-13-years-at-zendik-farm

http://emeraldimajia.livejournal.com/149140.html

I remember hanging out with one girl who was excited to be moving to the commune, and another who grew up living on it. Both were weird in a not-so-great, annoying way.
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Re: Fearsome and mammoth cults thread

Postby enframed on Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:22 pm

Clyde wrote:
Image



"Lift everything but the eyes, Doc. Thanks."

Actually, I can't tell if it was a lift, Botox, or both with that guy.
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Re: Fearsome and mammoth cults thread

Postby jimmy spako on Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:59 am

Redline wrote:
Still better than Koresh's album

I didn't even know that existed.


is there any audio of koresh playing his guitar along with the feds' noise terror during the siege? this is supposed to have happened.
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Re: Fearsome and mammoth cults thread

Postby Redline on Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:12 am

This thread is boss...
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Re: Fearsome and mammoth cults thread

Postby Clyde on Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:14 am

big_dave wrote:Image

The Theosophical Society, it's like they couldn't decide which kind of religion they wanted like an impatient Subway customer and just went "eh, fuck it, just stick it all in there somehow"


It gets more convoluted. A number of well-known cults are offshoots or have drawn from TTS, including Heaven's Gate and the Church Universal & Triumphant.
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Re: Fearsome and mammoth cults thread

Postby skoz on Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:33 am

Clyde wrote:
big_dave wrote:Image

The Theosophical Society, it's like they couldn't decide which kind of religion they wanted like an impatient Subway customer and just went "eh, fuck it, just stick it all in there somehow"


It gets more convoluted. A number of well-known cults are offshoots or have drawn from TTS, including Heaven's Gate and the Church Universal & Triumphant.


Summit Lighthouse/Church Universal and Triumphant were influenced by theosophy but more specifically and directly the "I AM" movement.
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Re: Fearsome and mammoth cults thread

Postby Redline on Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:29 pm

And no one heard at all, not even the chair.
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Re: Fearsome and mammoth cults thread

Postby Clyde on Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:34 pm

skoz wrote:
Clyde wrote:
big_dave wrote:Image

The Theosophical Society, it's like they couldn't decide which kind of religion they wanted like an impatient Subway customer and just went "eh, fuck it, just stick it all in there somehow"


It gets more convoluted. A number of well-known cults are offshoots or have drawn from TTS, including Heaven's Gate and the Church Universal & Triumphant.


Summit Lighthouse/Church Universal and Triumphant were influenced by theosophy but more specifically and directly the "I AM" movement.


Aha. I knew the I AM stuff was also an offshoot but I didn't realize CUT was an offshoot of I AM. I mistakenly thought they were contemporaneous.

I don't mean to impose but, if you're comfortable, would you mind telling us a little more about your experience in CUT? How your family got involved/got out, for example? Or any positive memories you have of the experience? Or anything you think is worth telling. Again, if you'd rather not, I understand completely.
NewDarkAge wrote:Dialectics, mate. No easy answers.
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Re: Fearsome and mammoth cults thread

Postby skoz on Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:00 pm

Clyde wrote:Aha. I knew the I AM stuff was also an offshoot but I didn't realize CUT was an offshoot of I AM. I mistakenly thought they were contemporaneous.

I don't mean to impose but, if you're comfortable, would you mind telling us a little more about your experience in CUT? How your family got involved/got out, for example? Or any positive memories you have of the experience? Or anything you think is worth telling. Again, if you'd rather not, I understand completely.

The I AM movement stared in the 30's and Mark Prophet started the Summit in the 50's I believe drawing from an interest in the I AM movement.

In regards to my family and Summit Lighthouse/CUT, it's a pretty long involved topic but I'll summarize. My parents joined the organization in the early 70s and worked for the leaders Mark and Elizabeth Prophet. As staff members they lived in poverty gave all of there assets to the church and cut off contact with there family's. My dads income in 1974 was $200. After Mark prophet died in 73 things got dark. Elizabeth arranged marriages between staff members including my parents and encouraged them to have kids. She wanted them to "bring forth a new generation of avatars to balance the earths karma" or something like that. There were lots of rules governing all aspects of life including married couples sex lives. staff members were encouraged to rat one another out when rules were broken. Elizabeth started having staff members prepare for nuclear war my Dad was involved in stockpiling survivalist gear, weapons and gold. My Dad decided he couldn't deal and left.My parents split up. Ultimately he was exiled for 300,000 years in 76. My mom stayed involved but no longer was on staff. I do remember spending a lot of time at the church compound in Malibu when I was 4 or so. We moved to the east coast in 1979 and regularly attended church in DC. My Mom married a man who wasn't involved in the church so I while grew up with some of the crazy supernatural/social/political ideas it was sort of a watered down version. After my stepdad passed away in 88 my Mom and siblings moved close to the Montana headquarters and got much more involved building a bomb shelter and purchasing weapons. I had moved in with my Dad by this point and missed out on a lot of the Montana period but my siblings we pretty negatively affected by it. My mom got out for good in the late 90s but has a lot of friends who are former members. She looks back on a lot of it negatively. My dad who got out much earlier has plenty of criticisms but also credits the church for helping him develop discipline and a work ethic. He also for reasons I don't understand is still into various types gurus and spirituality. I don't have anything positive to say about my experiences with the church.
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Re: Fearsome and mammoth cults thread

Postby Clyde on Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:20 am

skoz wrote:
Clyde wrote:Aha. I knew the I AM stuff was also an offshoot but I didn't realize CUT was an offshoot of I AM. I mistakenly thought they were contemporaneous.

I don't mean to impose but, if you're comfortable, would you mind telling us a little more about your experience in CUT? How your family got involved/got out, for example? Or any positive memories you have of the experience? Or anything you think is worth telling. Again, if you'd rather not, I understand completely.

The I AM movement stared in the 30's and Mark Prophet started the Summit in the 50's I believe drawing from an interest in the I AM movement.

In regards to my family and Summit Lighthouse/CUT, it's a pretty long involved topic but I'll summarize. My parents joined the organization in the early 70s and worked for the leaders Mark and Elizabeth Prophet. As staff members they lived in poverty gave all of there assets to the church and cut off contact with there family's. My dads income in 1974 was $200. After Mark prophet died in 73 things got dark. Elizabeth arranged marriages between staff members including my parents and encouraged them to have kids. She wanted them to "bring forth a new generation of avatars to balance the earths karma" or something like that. There were lots of rules governing all aspects of life including married couples sex lives. staff members were encouraged to rat one another out when rules were broken. Elizabeth started having staff members prepare for nuclear war my Dad was involved in stockpiling survivalist gear, weapons and gold. My Dad decided he couldn't deal and left.My parents split up. Ultimately he was exiled for 300,000 years in 76. My mom stayed involved but no longer was on staff. I do remember spending a lot of time at the church compound in Malibu when I was 4 or so. We moved to the east coast in 1979 and regularly attended church in DC. My Mom married a man who wasn't involved in the church so I while grew up with some of the crazy supernatural/social/political ideas it was sort of a watered down version. After my stepdad passed away in 88 my Mom and siblings moved close to the Montana headquarters and got much more involved building a bomb shelter and purchasing weapons. I had moved in with my Dad by this point and missed out on a lot of the Montana period but my siblings we pretty negatively affected by it. My mom got out for good in the late 90s but has a lot of friends who are former members. She looks back on a lot of it negatively. My dad who got out much earlier has plenty of criticisms but also credits the church for helping him develop discipline and a work ethic. He also for reasons I don't understand is still into various types gurus and spirituality. I don't have anything positive to say about my experiences with the church.


Thank you so much for sharing that. It sounds like an amazing story that was pretty awful to live through. I have a ton of follow-up questions but I'll stop harassing you, at least for now.
NewDarkAge wrote:Dialectics, mate. No easy answers.
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Re: Fearsome and mammoth cults thread

Postby skoz on Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:22 pm

Clyde wrote:
skoz wrote:
Clyde wrote:Aha. I knew the I AM stuff was also an offshoot but I didn't realize CUT was an offshoot of I AM. I mistakenly thought they were contemporaneous.

I don't mean to impose but, if you're comfortable, would you mind telling us a little more about your experience in CUT? How your family got involved/got out, for example? Or any positive memories you have of the experience? Or anything you think is worth telling. Again, if you'd rather not, I understand completely.

The I AM movement stared in the 30's and Mark Prophet started the Summit in the 50's I believe drawing from an interest in the I AM movement.

In regards to my family and Summit Lighthouse/CUT, it's a pretty long involved topic but I'll summarize. My parents joined the organization in the early 70s and worked for the leaders Mark and Elizabeth Prophet. As staff members they lived in poverty gave all of there assets to the church and cut off contact with there family's. My dads income in 1974 was $200. After Mark prophet died in 73 things got dark. Elizabeth arranged marriages between staff members including my parents and encouraged them to have kids. She wanted them to "bring forth a new generation of avatars to balance the earths karma" or something like that. There were lots of rules governing all aspects of life including married couples sex lives. staff members were encouraged to rat one another out when rules were broken. Elizabeth started having staff members prepare for nuclear war my Dad was involved in stockpiling survivalist gear, weapons and gold. My Dad decided he couldn't deal and left.My parents split up. Ultimately he was exiled for 300,000 years in 76. My mom stayed involved but no longer was on staff. I do remember spending a lot of time at the church compound in Malibu when I was 4 or so. We moved to the east coast in 1979 and regularly attended church in DC. My Mom married a man who wasn't involved in the church so I while grew up with some of the crazy supernatural/social/political ideas it was sort of a watered down version. After my stepdad passed away in 88 my Mom and siblings moved close to the Montana headquarters and got much more involved building a bomb shelter and purchasing weapons. I had moved in with my Dad by this point and missed out on a lot of the Montana period but my siblings we pretty negatively affected by it. My mom got out for good in the late 90s but has a lot of friends who are former members. She looks back on a lot of it negatively. My dad who got out much earlier has plenty of criticisms but also credits the church for helping him develop discipline and a work ethic. He also for reasons I don't understand is still into various types gurus and spirituality. I don't have anything positive to say about my experiences with the church.


Thank you so much for sharing that. It sounds like an amazing story that was pretty awful to live through. I have a ton of follow-up questions but I'll stop harassing you, at least for now.



I'm fine with answering some specific questions about the church but don't really want to make this thread about my life story. Maybe PM me unless you think it might be in the general interest.
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Re: Fearsome and mammoth cults thread

Postby Clyde on Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:14 pm

skoz wrote:I'm fine with answering some specific questions about the church but don't really want to make this thread about my life story. Maybe PM me unless you think it might be in the general interest.


I really appreciate it, and I don't want to put you on the spot at all. If I think of general questions about CUT, I may post them here and if I think of other stuff I may PM you as long as you feel comfortable talking about it. Thank you again.
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