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*sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby pldms on Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:51 pm

Gramsci wrote:Americans and Brits complaining about Russia messing with other countries' elections is really fucking ironic.

I thought we were complaining about Russians / Cubans / Uzbeks / MI6 spraying nerve agent on Zizzi customers...?
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby OrthodoxEaster on Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:50 pm

Pasta wrote:
Anthony Flack wrote:Wikileaks itself seems
to be a wing of the Russian propaganda network these days.


This. Why are y'all defending a dictatorship?


Seems like this is increasingly becoming the thing to do on both the far right and the far left nowadays. It's a disturbing trend.

A lot of it stems from a sort of naive enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend mentality. Making excuses for Russia is like this knee-jerk, reactionary thing that communicates that you somehow oppose American foreign policy. I'm not in love w/American foreign policy, either. But historically and presently, Russia is a a country that--no matter who is sitting in Moscow--has always been as much of a colonialist aggressor and a warmongering entity (w/a chip on its shoulder, no less!) as any major world power you care to name. Perhaps even more so.

Speaking to everyday Russians about politics will yield some of the darkest, funniest, most paranoid and cynical conversations you'll ever hear. It's like massive corruption and the inability to reform anything are basically the norms, on a level that, even in the worst of times in America, is hard to comprehend. Outlandish conspiracy and paranoia are everywhere.

A second factor here is that Russia's sphere of influence is somewhat obscure in the West. Globally speaking, nobody really gives a shit what the average Ukrainian or Georgian thinks about his meddling superpower neighbor. So much of the American far left and far right media bought into ridiculous conspiracy theories, disinformation, and propaganda some years ago during the ousting of Yanukovych in Ukraine. (The anti-Yanukovych faction in Ukraine were all fascists! It was a CIA coup! The Ukrainians, not the Russians, shot down that passenger plane b/c they thought it was Putin's private jet!) Even some otherwise well-meaning people on this board fell for those lies. Mainly b/c whitewashing Russia plays into a political narrative that goes against American foreign policy. (Both hawkish Republicans and middle-of-the-road liberals despise Putin.) And so, those on the American political fringes tend to make excuses for quite sizeable and ongoing historical atrocities.

(Side note: Uzbekistan, at least under the Karimov family dictatorship, was rather cozy w/Moscow.)

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Right. But I've heard the same excuses made by American right-wing survivalist types, as well. Never mind Trump's supposed boner for all things Putin.

It's one of those areas in which factions of the far right and far left meet atop a circle of stupidity.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby numberthirty on Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:11 pm

OrthodoxEaster wrote:
Pasta wrote:
Anthony Flack wrote:Wikileaks itself seems
to be a wing of the Russian propaganda network these days.


This. Why are y'all defending a dictatorship?


Seems like this is increasingly becoming the thing to do on both the far right and the far left nowadays. It's a disturbing trend.


Seriously.

This shit sounds like a woman with a black eye trying to convince you that her boyfriend didn't actually mean it.

Sometimes, things are probably exactly what they seem like they are.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby Boombats on Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:22 pm

That's a straw man argument. Nobody in the thread is defending Russia. But they're no more corrupt than our own governments when you take all foreign intervention into consideration. The point is that to assume it's Russia is lazy thinking, considering that some parts of our governing structures want to at least maintain the war with them.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby blackmarket on Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:44 pm

Gramsci wrote:Americans and Brits complaining about Russia messing with other countries' elections is really fucking ironic.


Are you saying I had something to do with that?
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby Anthony Flack on Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:16 am

I despise Putin. I despise Trump. I think Theresa May is a bumbling stooge. And I'm plenty communist.

Putin is up to some proper dastardly fuckery. The US government has certainly also committed acts of dastardly fuckery in its day, although not under the auspices of an ersatz dictator-for-life. Don't we despise them both? Haven't we always?
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby Dudley on Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:10 am

What about the possibility that this is about resurrecting US/UK/NATO as the bogeyman again?

It's three days to presidential elections in Russia. Their press are lapping this up. A huge surge of national unity as all the previous-generation oppressors link hands and gang up on poor beleaguered Russia. In a similar way to increased sub activity in the Atlantic, NATO airspace infringements, and walking into Ukraine and the West does sweet fuck all, this is playing brilliantly at home.

The timing of this serves Putin and the current Russian regime way better than any other of the cited players. Why would any of the other possible culprits hand Putin a massive PR boost on a plate by doing this now? Rather than say, after the elections?

Without trying to be a dick about this, it's a very Merican response to presume that this incident is somehow "for" America, or orchestrated by America, or even gives a shit about America.

The UK is currently awash in this sort of distorted "we're at the centre of everything" thinking, and either by happy accident or design, it completely fuels a really disturbing and cynical attempt to distort truth.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby Boombats on Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:45 am

Dudley wrote:Without trying to be a dick about this, it's a very Merican response to presume that this incident is somehow "for" America, or orchestrated by America, or even gives a shit about America.

Who said anything about America?
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby blackmarket on Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:48 am

Boombats wrote:
Dudley wrote:Without trying to be a dick about this, it's a very Merican response to presume that this incident is somehow "for" America, or orchestrated by America, or even gives a shit about America.

Who said anything about America?


Umm...you did. :smt006

Boombats wrote:That's a straw man argument. Nobody in the thread is defending Russia. But they're no more corrupt than our own governments when you take all foreign intervention into consideration. The point is that to assume it's Russia is lazy thinking, considering that some parts of our governing structures want to at least maintain the war with them.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby jimmy two hands on Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:09 pm

OrthodoxEaster wrote:
Pasta wrote:
Anthony Flack wrote:Wikileaks itself seems
to be a wing of the Russian propaganda network these days.


This. Why are y'all defending a dictatorship?


Seems like this is increasingly becoming the thing to do on both the far right and the far left nowadays. It's a disturbing trend.


The far left kinda has 2 different main viewpoints on the Russia stuff lately. One side thinks the Russian election interference news is overblown and liberals are falling for unhinged conspiracy theories where anyone who disagrees with their narrative is a Russian spy, another smaller side is made up of tankie whackaloons who believe Putin is an anti-imperialist hero of the working class. And there are a whole lot of other takes on the left that aren't as popular and I won't even get into those.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby sulfur)addict on Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:35 pm

Yeah, stateside, the "Russia hacked the election" thing is the Democrats answer to "Obama's birth certificate" - something to keep their base salivating over the "fraudulency" of a very real presidency. Sour grapes. Great for the ratings though!

Is an assassination on foreign soil using chemical agents a declaration of war? Or is it just old KGB tactics, making a point to kill your opponent openly, horribly, exactly where they think they're the safest? If anything, the sheer gall of doing it in the UK likely means Russia doesn't believe the Brits would retaliate, calling their bluff so to speak. Takes a lotta arrogance to kill someone on foreign soil! But Putin is always up to his neck in UN sanctions, why would he risk starting a total war if the Novichok could be so easily traced back to Russia?
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby blackmarket on Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:44 pm

sulfur)addict wrote:Yeah, stateside, the "Russia hacked the election" thing is the Democrats answer to "Obama's birth certificate" - something to keep their base salivating over the "fraudulency" of a very real presidency. Sour grapes. Great for the ratings though!


That's a bit of false equivalence. There is no question that Russian agents attempted to sway our election through social media disinformation. The question comes down to what degree and whether or not there was coordination with a party candidate. Birther-ism was a racist attack on our first AA precedent that had no merit whatsoever. The two are obviously not the same. Not even close.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby Boombats on Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:49 pm

blackmarket wrote:
Boombats wrote:
Dudley wrote:Without trying to be a dick about this, it's a very Merican response to presume that this incident is somehow "for" America, or orchestrated by America, or even gives a shit about America.

Who said anything about America?


Umm...you did. :smt006

Boombats wrote:That's a straw man argument. Nobody in the thread is defending Russia. But they're no more corrupt than our own governments when you take all foreign intervention into consideration. The point is that to assume it's Russia is lazy thinking, considering that some parts of our governing structures want to at least maintain the war with them.

I said "our own governments" which includes the UK. I never said this poisoning had anything to do with the US, which should be clear to anyone who is not trying to intentionally misunderstand my words.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby blackmarket on Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:00 pm

Boombats wrote:
blackmarket wrote:
Boombats wrote:
Dudley wrote:Without trying to be a dick about this, it's a very Merican response to presume that this incident is somehow "for" America, or orchestrated by America, or even gives a shit about America.

Who said anything about America?


Umm...you did. :smt006

Boombats wrote:That's a straw man argument. Nobody in the thread is defending Russia. But they're no more corrupt than our own governments when you take all foreign intervention into consideration. The point is that to assume it's Russia is lazy thinking, considering that some parts of our governing structures want to at least maintain the war with them.

I said "our own governments" which includes the UK. I never said this poisoning had anything to do with the US


You sound really confused. Don't you live in New York state? "Our own governments", obviously would include the U.S., unless you have split-personality-Ukrainian-resident also living inside your head.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby sulfur)addict on Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:01 pm

blackmarket wrote:
sulfur)addict wrote:Yeah, stateside, the "Russia hacked the election" thing is the Democrats answer to "Obama's birth certificate" - something to keep their base salivating over the "fraudulency" of a very real presidency. Sour grapes. Great for the ratings though!


That's a bit of false equivalence. There is no question that Russian agents attempted to sway our election through social media disinformation. The question comes down to what degree and whether or not there was coordination with a party candidate. Birther-ism was a racist attack on our first AA precedent that had no merit whatsoever. The two are obviously not the same. Not even close.


MSNBC went to #1 in the ratings on that story. It's a hit TV show.

"Social media disinformation" is hilarious. The very fabric of democracy is at stake because Uncle Ted couldn't snopes a Facebook story. Is this a coordinated attack from foreign agents? Is Trump's entire presidency founded on a lie? Why didn't she go to Wisconsin, hmm hmm hmm?

Yes, the birthers angle was racist, it appealed to a racist fanbase. So what does Russiagate say about the Democratic base?

I don't want to distract from the Chemical Warfare on Foreign Soil aspect of this thread though. For Russia to have committed it so brazenly is either arrogance or stupidity (or both, I suppose)
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby blackmarket on Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:05 pm

sulfur)addict wrote:
blackmarket wrote:
sulfur)addict wrote:Yeah, stateside, the "Russia hacked the election" thing is the Democrats answer to "Obama's birth certificate" - something to keep their base salivating over the "fraudulency" of a very real presidency. Sour grapes. Great for the ratings though!


That's a bit of false equivalence. There is no question that Russian agents attempted to sway our election through social media disinformation. The question comes down to what degree and whether or not there was coordination with a party candidate. Birther-ism was a racist attack on our first AA precedent that had no merit whatsoever. The two are obviously not the same. Not even close.


MSNBC went to #1 in the ratings on that story. It's a hit TV show.

"Social media disinformation" is hilarious. The very fabric of democracy is at stake because Uncle Ted couldn't snopes a Facebook story. Is this a coordinated attack from foreign agents? Is Trump's entire presidency founded on a lie? Why didn't she go to Wisconsin, hmm hmm hmm?

Yes, the birthers angle was racist, it appealed to a racist fanbase. So what does Russiagate say about the Democratic base?

I don't want to distract from the Chemical Warfare on Foreign Soil aspect of this thread though. For Russia to have committed it so brazenly is either arrogance or stupidity (or both, I suppose)


I am not addressing the merit of the current narrative, only the false equivalence you posted. If one thing is true (by matter of degrees) and the other is false - the two scenarios cannot possible be said to be the same.

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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby Boombats on Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:07 pm

blackmarket wrote:
Boombats wrote:
blackmarket wrote:
Boombats wrote:
Dudley wrote:Without trying to be a dick about this, it's a very Merican response to presume that this incident is somehow "for" America, or orchestrated by America, or even gives a shit about America.

Who said anything about America?


Umm...you did. :smt006

Boombats wrote:That's a straw man argument. Nobody in the thread is defending Russia. But they're no more corrupt than our own governments when you take all foreign intervention into consideration. The point is that to assume it's Russia is lazy thinking, considering that some parts of our governing structures want to at least maintain the war with them.

I said "our own governments" which includes the UK. I never said this poisoning had anything to do with the US


You sound really confused. Don't you live in New York state? "Our own governments", obviously would include the U.S., unless you have split-personality-Ukrainian-resident also living inside your head.

Stop being deliberately thick, man. I include the US and UK in "our own governments" because they are our (read: the West, Allies, what have you) own governments. I said our own governments are as corrupt as Russia's. I never said "MY government is responsible for this." Stop trolling and contribute to the discussion or piss off.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby blackmarket on Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:12 pm

Boombats wrote:
blackmarket wrote:
Boombats wrote:
blackmarket wrote:
Boombats wrote:
Dudley wrote:Without trying to be a dick about this, it's a very Merican response to presume that this incident is somehow "for" America, or orchestrated by America, or even gives a shit about America.

Who said anything about America?


Umm...you did. :smt006

Boombats wrote:That's a straw man argument. Nobody in the thread is defending Russia. But they're no more corrupt than our own governments when you take all foreign intervention into consideration. The point is that to assume it's Russia is lazy thinking, considering that some parts of our governing structures want to at least maintain the war with them.

I said "our own governments" which includes the UK. I never said this poisoning had anything to do with the US


You sound really confused. Don't you live in New York state? "Our own governments", obviously would include the U.S., unless you have split-personality-Ukrainian-resident also living inside your head.

Stop being deliberately thick, man. I include the US and UK in "our own governments" because they are our (read: the West, Allies, what have you) own governments. I said our own governments are as corrupt as Russia's. I never said "MY government is responsible for this." Stop trolling and contribute to the discussion or piss off.


You wrote that some parts of the U.S. government want to maintain a war with Russia as a potential reason for involvement, thus including them in the speculation that this is a false-flag incident perpetrated by a the UK or an ally. If you didn't mean to write that, cool. Be more concise next time. I think we both agree that the U.S. gov has little to gain. I say Britain does as well.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby OrthodoxEaster on Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:14 pm

blackmarket wrote:That's a bit of false equivalence. There is no question that Russian agents attempted to sway our election through social media disinformation. The question comes down to what degree and whether or not there was coordination with a party candidate. Birther-ism was a racist attack on our first AA precedent that had no merit whatsoever. The two are obviously not the same. Not even close.


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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby Boombats on Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:14 pm

blackmarket wrote:Be more concise next time.

Your lack of comprehension, whether by intent or genuine handicap, is not my responsibility.
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