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Divorce Advice?

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Re: Divorce Advice?

Postby VaticanShotglass on Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:25 pm

So PRF, how do you know it's over? I mean purely hypothetically, let's say in a case where there's none of the super dramatic stuff like affairs or violence, and nothing has congealed to hate or spite, how do you know it is over? I got a friend.

Different question how old are people when they usually get divorced? Does it suck more younger or older?

Let's just say these sorts of things have been on my mind lately, what with that friend and all.
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Postby Mandroid2.0 on Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:46 pm

I was divorced at ages 25 and 34. The first time sucked less partially because it was a much more civil, amicable parting of ways rather than the soul-sucking emotional Hell that I am finally out of as of June 6th (but which I am still stuck in until I am officially moved back to the U.S. next week).

As far as the age thing goes, I think that psychologically it was easier being divorced at age 25 than 34. At 25, I still felt like I had all this opportunity to finish my degree, live all over the country/world, have crazy romances with interesting people, do whatever and have plenty of time to whittle out some more stable and permanent life for myself. I've done some of that stuff and had a lot of relationships and lived in California and England and been through a ton of shitty things and now I just feel kind of worn down by life and infinitely more pessimistic and jaded. By the time I get my shit together (mentally and physically, as I'm currently disabled and in need of surgeries), it feels like I'll be ancient and then all that I can look forward to is a lifetime of living with cats. Probably bankruptcy as well due to the surgery costs. It really does feel like I put all of my future-eggs in one basket with my last marriage and when that failed, my future went *POOF*.

As for the other question, I think "your friend" will just know if it's really over. That, or their spouse will know and make the decision for them, and then they'll be forced to acknowledge that the marriage is dead. Hopefully both parties will be in agreement about it, as was the case in my first marriage. It sounds dumb, but there just comes a point where one recognizes that the thing that once drew him or her to the other person is just no longer there and even though you might not be arguing or throwing plates at one another or cheating you've essentially become friendly roommates rather than spouses.
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Postby VaticanShotglass on Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:30 am

Thanks for the reply. I've read your posts on this recent break and it sound really rough. My sympathies really go out there to you. Best of luck with the move. I'm almost 30, but since I went into academia (still haven't finished my degree) I don't really have any lead on a career. I've only ever met 40 and up divorced folks, usually with kids. At least they tend to have an adult job to seem functional or whatever. I feel like I'd not be taken seriously by anyone, but that is really the least of my concerns, just something that I thought of.

"...and even though you might not be arguing or throwing plates at one another or cheating you've essentially become friendly roommates rather than spouses."

This is what I'm worried about. In my own beleaguered way, I'm still quite passionately attached and attracted to her, but I think she might be done with me. I can't blame her too much as I'm a depressed mess and the last year was a complete struggle for me to manage the basics of food and getting out of bed. Everyone has a breaking point of what they can tolerate. But I was working so hard that time to get myself back in shape. I went to therapy with lots of focus. I set goals. I manages to not (yet) get kicked out of school despite becoming nearly agoraphobic. And now, a year later I'm pretty damned functional (for myself). But I mostly went through that alone, with chimeric support from my wife. I just think it all blew her fuse. The entire time I worked so hard to be considerate and crash when she wasn't home and to make sure my anxiety didn't radiate out too much. But I don't know.

This is all heartbreaking for me, but the maddening part is that she won't come clean on what is going on with her side. I've tried to get her to go to counseling with me to help our communication, but she finds ways to postpone it or merely placate me but not follow through. I just get stonewalled. Normally, I'd think the other party was cheating or something like that. In this case I doubt it is the case. I worry that she really just doesn't want to be alone, isn't happy with me, but is willing to keep spinning the plates. Or it could be a reverse-vampire/alien conspiracy.
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Postby simmo on Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:54 am

VaticanShotglass wrote:This is what I'm worried about. In my own beleaguered way, I'm still quite passionately attached and attracted to her, but I think she might be done with me.


You need to ask her directly. It's scary but you need to know the answer to this question. You might even be reading her all wrong. The point is, you shouldn't be trying to read her, you should be asking her to tell you.

Good luck.
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Postby Dudley on Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:06 am

simmo wrote:You need to ask her directly. It's scary but you need to know the answer to this question. You might even be reading her all wrong. The point is, you should be trying to read her, you should be asking her to tell you.

Good luck.


I'd gently echo what simmo said. It's not like having an incurable illness, where they do a test and tell you if you are divorce-positive or not. It's not pre-ordained or written in your relationships's DNA. It's a dynamic thing. It's about you, and crucially, about how you and your other half react when things are tough. How you solve problems. How one's partner reacts to difficulty can in itself be a huge problem in a relationship. It can also be the thing that saves it.

I'd forcefully echo the "good luck" part. Stay calm. And remember, you don't get points for anything. Ultimately, it's about being happy - together or otherwise.

All the best

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Re: Divorce Advice?

Postby BobbyPeru on Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:31 am

Check out this forum.. it's helped me immensely since my divorce in 2011. Lots of people going through this shit, it sucks.


www.loveshack.org
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Postby VaticanShotglass on Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:44 am

Thanks folks. I had a pretty rough night. The bummer is that I have totally asked her directly. She denies wanting to end things, but completely stonewalls me about what is going on. This has been dragging on too long. I hate being in the position to have to read her.

Anyway thanks for being nice.
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Postby 1009 on Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:53 am

There's something about academia and divorce. The academy generally does bad things to people. Not always, but with impressive frequency. Or maybe it just unmoors folks enough to cause tensions to surface. I'm sure there's a thesis out there somewhere on this very topic.

I started a PhD program (still ABD!) about a decade ago and got divorced in summer 2011 (finalized the following spring). No kids, no common property, perfectly amicable, so I know I was lucky. I knew things were awful, but I'd become pretty nihilistic about everything, just watching while it all burned because I felt helpless to change anything. She brought up divorce, which hurt to hear at the time, but very quickly seemed like the right thing to do.

I was 32 and adjuncting, making horrible money and not having any time to finish the dissertation. I was definitely horrified about what was going to happen financially, but in retrospect I'm glad I didn't let those fears lead me into any stupid decisions.

I spent a few months playing tons of music, which was great. I was at four to five shows a month with these crazy PRF motherfuckers. I wasn't really dating at all, but that was just fine at that point. Eventually I met up with a (also recently-divorced) friend (I'd put a picture of her on the Heavy Bombers' previous record), and we hit it off. (I sometimes wonder if I'm the first musician to sleep with a cover model after putting her on the album.) We hit it off so well and so quickly that we amazed (and continue to amaze) each other, and now we're married and have our first (3-week-old) son.

I'm sure a lot of this boils down to good fortune, but I had to go through that shit of divorce to get here. Don't let yourself believe that you don't deserve to be happy, because you do. I definitely used to think that happy, loving relationships were for other folks, and I just had to reconcile myself to the situation I had, but that kind of thinking is for the fucking birds. No one is fated to unhappiness.

You owe it to yourself to clear the air between you and your wife -- make her understand the urgency of this. Maybe you guys will patch things up and move on, but you owe it to yourselves and to each other to allow yourselves to be happy. If she stonewalls, then (forgive the boldness of the suggestion) you need to tell her that you can't live with her that way. You can't fucking pretend forever.

(Forgive the messianic tone of this. I'm going to post it in spite of writing it on two hours of sleep after enjoying my son's antics from 12:30 to 5:30 this morning.)
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Postby Boombats on Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:49 pm

Tell her it's ok if she fucks other dudes, as long as you can still get some. See what she says. I'm not kidding.
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Postby Mandroid2.0 on Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:18 pm

1009 wrote:You owe it to yourself to clear the air between you and your wife -- make her understand the urgency of this. Maybe you guys will patch things up and move on, but you owe it to yourselves and to each other to allow yourselves to be happy. If she stonewalls, then (forgive the boldness of the suggestion) you need to tell her that you can't live with her that way. You can't fucking pretend forever.

YES.

If she doesn't know what's wrong well enough to articulate it to you so you can work on it or formulate some sort of plan for dealing with it and isn't willing to put the work into figuring it out through therapy or other means, there's no point continuing on, no matter how much you might love that other person and cling to the belief that things will work themselves out. You're just going to be beating your head against a wall for an unnecessarily extended period of time and will probably arrive at the same result, which is essentially what happened to me with my last marriage.

I should have told my ex-husband that I wanted a divorce before I ever moved to England (in my case, we had a stormy relationship prior to even getting married). I knew things were not at all right between us but clung to this belief that if we could just live together in the same country the communication issues would be different and we'd be happy. I convinced myself that if I tried hard to dig myself out of my mental health issues and straighten myself out with his help and attention, we'd be fine as a couple and our relationship would be stronger for it.

Instead, everything got much, much worse and by that time I felt trapped by financial constraints, having moved to another country to a city I hated where employment prospects were dim, and having convinced myself that I was truly in love with him and had to do everything in my power to save the marriage. Anytime I did try to suggest couples counseling, he refused. Anytime I'd try my best to control my mood swings/depression/anxiety/eating disorder with meds and sheer willpower, he'd seem to go out of his way to be aloof and then do something to set me off and say, "well, fuck it all then," and my progress was all cast away. Everyone that I knew pleaded with me to get a divorce but I was so delusional about things that I wouldn't listen or would make excuses why I couldn't leave him or I needed him. Up until the very end where he finally moved out of the house (while I was in the hospital, but that's another story...), I thought that I would rather be dead than have the marriage end and deal with the consequential feelings of loss and failure and being alone.

Looking back at it now, it seems rather silly. He was an emotionally manipulative prick to me, whether intentional or not. I had existing issues (diagnosed as bipolar while married, previously eating disordered since 16, self-destructive streak a mile long, etc.) before which were worsened by his behaviour, and we played off of each other like this for years. I could have just severed the limb when the notion of a divorce first popped into my head, admittedly gone through a lot of pain and hassle at the time, but overall saved myself a lot of wasted life/money/mental and physical wreckage that was all drawn out for an unneeded span of time where I could have been happy rather than constantly tortured. The last year or two of my life? I've pretty much had to come to terms to sloughing them off as a self-imposed prison term. I didn't need to do that to myself and most of all, I didn't deserve that.

No one should go through life like I did---pretending that if enough patience or effort or apologies or sacrifice could be given, it would all work out. Pretending that everything is normal when it is obvious it isn't is terrible and will eventually start to devour you like it did me. Don't do that to yourself.
"To be stupid, selfish, and have good health are three requirements for happiness, though if stupidity is lacking, all is lost."

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Re: Divorce Advice?

Postby turnbullac on Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:55 pm

I think my parents' divorce finalized sometime in 2004, so my dad was over 80 years old and my mom would have been in her 60s. It's never too late!
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Postby Awesome_Komodo on Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:15 pm

Do not get married.
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Postby howiemarx on Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:54 pm

:smt015
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Postby Mandroid2.0 on Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:41 pm

Lovepet
Was it an animal was it a bird?
She stroked it. He spoke to it softly.
She made her voice its happy forest.
He brought it out with sugarlump smiles.
Soon it was licking their kisses.
She gave it the strings of her voice which it swallowed
He gave it the blood of his face it grew eager
She gave it the liquorice of her mouth it began to thrive
He opened the aniseed of his future
And it bit and gulped, grew vicious, snatched
The focus of his eyes
She gave it the steadiness of her hand
He gave it the strength of his spine it ate everything
It began to cry what could they give it
They gave it their calendars it bolted their diaries
They gave it their sleep it gobbled their dreams
Even while they slept
It ate their bodyskin and the muscle beneath
They gave it vows its teeth clashed its starvation
Through every word they uttered
It found snakes under the floor it ate them
It found a spider horror
In their palms and ate it
They gave it double smiles and blank silence
It chewed holes in their carpets
They gave it logic
It ate the colour of their hair
They gave it every argument that would come
They gave it shouting and yelling they meant it
It ate the faces of their children
They gave it their photograph albums they gave it their records
It ate the colour of the sun
They gave it a thousand letters they gave it money
It ate their future complete it waited for them
Staring and starving
They gave it screams it had gone too far
It ate into their brains
It ate the roof
It ate lonely stone it ate wind crying famine
It went furiously off
They wept they called it back it could have everything
It stripped out their nerves chewed chewed flavourless
It bit at their numb bodies they did not resist
It bit into their blank brains they hardly knew
It moved bellowing
Through a ruin of starlight and crockery
It drew slowly off they could not move
It went far away they could not speak.

-Ted Hughes

That right there is what divorce will feel like.
"To be stupid, selfish, and have good health are three requirements for happiness, though if stupidity is lacking, all is lost."

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Re: Divorce Advice?

Postby John W. on Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:24 pm

Divorce advice? Let yourself crumple into a miserable heap. When you're ready, rearrange your domicile/do a little housework. Go to a cafe or whatever - have a cup of coffee and some pie. Go easy on the sauce. Make a to-do list and try to cross some things off it.

I've got a dog and she really helps, too.

Hang out with those in your family that make you feel alright - hang out with good old friends, too. Unless you're in dire need, don't bum them out by being a drag - tough it out alone a little bit, too. Pace around and figure out what you want to do - write it down.

Get some pills from the doctor or see a shrink if you can't keep it together. Think about a time in the future when things might start to get better (e.g., the divorce is finalized, the house is sold, you fly/drive somewhere to see a good old friend). Focus on that time.

Make an escape plan. I'm planning on getting a second job this fall so I can fix up the house, sell it, and move on. Thinking about all your options helps you feel more in control - at least it does for me. Learn about who you are and why you got here.

Oh! And watch funny stuff or comfy old shows/movies on the internet & on TV. Don't be afraid to go to the movies alone. Or read a favorite book if that's your bag. immerse yourself in music. Listen to/dig through your whole collection all over again. If there's any hobby or something that makes you feel directed and distracted, try to break through the membrane, get out of bed, and fuck around a bit doing the stuff that you liked to do on your own when you were still kind of a kid.

That's all I got. Everything might not all be magically okay one day, but at least you can make the best of it.

Hope this is helpful,
John
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Postby noise&light on Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:57 am

John W. wrote:Divorce advice? Let yourself crumple into a miserable heap. When you're ready, rearrange your domicile/do a little housework. Go to a cafe or whatever - have a cup of coffee and some pie. Go easy on the sauce. Make a to-do list and try to cross some things off it.

I've got a dog and she really helps, too.

Hang out with those in your family that make you feel alright - hang out with good old friends, too. Unless you're in dire need, don't bum them out by being a drag - tough it out alone a little bit, too. Pace around and figure out what you want to do - write it down.

Get some pills from the doctor or see a shrink if you can't keep it together. Think about a time in the future when things might start to get better (e.g., the divorce is finalized, the house is sold, you fly/drive somewhere to see a good old friend). Focus on that time.

Make an escape plan. I'm planning on getting a second job this fall so I can fix up the house, sell it, and move on. Thinking about all your options helps you feel more in control - at least it does for me. Learn about who you are and why you got here.

Oh! And watch funny stuff or comfy old shows/movies on the internet & on TV. Don't be afraid to go to the movies alone. Or read a favorite book if that's your bag. immerse yourself in music. Listen to/dig through your whole collection all over again. If there's any hobby or something that makes you feel directed and distracted, try to break through the membrane, get out of bed, and fuck around a bit doing the stuff that you liked to do on your own when you were still kind of a kid.

That's all I got. Everything might not all be magically okay one day, but at least you can make the best of it.

Hope this is helpful,
John


This is really good advice.
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Postby enframed on Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:55 am

noise&light wrote:
John W. wrote:Divorce advice? Let yourself crumple into a miserable heap. When you're ready, rearrange your domicile/do a little housework. Go to a cafe or whatever - have a cup of coffee and some pie. Go easy on the sauce. Make a to-do list and try to cross some things off it.

I've got a dog and she really helps, too.

Hang out with those in your family that make you feel alright - hang out with good old friends, too. Unless you're in dire need, don't bum them out by being a drag - tough it out alone a little bit, too. Pace around and figure out what you want to do - write it down.

Get some pills from the doctor or see a shrink if you can't keep it together. Think about a time in the future when things might start to get better (e.g., the divorce is finalized, the house is sold, you fly/drive somewhere to see a good old friend). Focus on that time.

Make an escape plan. I'm planning on getting a second job this fall so I can fix up the house, sell it, and move on. Thinking about all your options helps you feel more in control - at least it does for me. Learn about who you are and why you got here.

Oh! And watch funny stuff or comfy old shows/movies on the internet & on TV. Don't be afraid to go to the movies alone. Or read a favorite book if that's your bag. immerse yourself in music. Listen to/dig through your whole collection all over again. If there's any hobby or something that makes you feel directed and distracted, try to break through the membrane, get out of bed, and fuck around a bit doing the stuff that you liked to do on your own when you were still kind of a kid.

That's all I got. Everything might not all be magically okay one day, but at least you can make the best of it.

Hope this is helpful,
John


This is really good advice.


Very good. I did nearly exactly that. Saw a therapist not about the loss of my wife but the loss of "the family." Used Flurazipam to sleep a few nights a week, never two days in a row. Changed my routine a lot. It hurt for a while, then it didn't. Then I stopped seing the therapist and taking the drugs, about six-eight months later.

As to when you know, you just do.

1009 wrote:There's something about academia and divorce. The academy generally does bad things to people. Not always, but with impressive frequency.


There's something to this. In my experience it seems to stunt people's emotional growth, or it just attracts those kinds of people. Not the majority, certainly, but as you wrote, with impressive frequency. David Foster Wallace has a nice line about this in Infinite Jest.
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Postby Dave N. on Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:09 am

1009 wrote:There's something about academia and divorce. The academy generally does bad things to people. Not always, but with impressive frequency. Or maybe it just unmoors folks enough to cause tensions to surface. I'm sure there's a thesis out there somewhere on this very topic.


I would imagine it has something to do with having to place other commitments before the relationship, or immersing one's self in an interest that isn't shared between both parties. My interests (non-academic) have nearly killed my marriage a couple of times, and it had everything to do with my wife not relating to my interests, or being intimidated, or feeling excluded.
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Postby Tom on Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:11 am

So, I have a relatively close relative that is getting a divorce. But that's a side note.
Here's the whole story in a nut shell:

She was diagnosed as a schizophrenic 20 or so years ago and had been on medication. The meds helped her tremendously, she was able to live a normal life. Well, due to circumstances out of her control, she was forced to see a different psychiatrist who decided (after a 5 minute visit) that she wasn't schizophrenic and started reducing her meds. She started to slip, and quit seeing the doctor and quit taking taking her meds entirely.

Now, she's hearing voices in her had and is divorcing her husband who has stuck by her for 20 years and is the only stability she has any hope of having. He doesn't want to get a divorce, but he's worn down. She is planning on moving into a trailer park. She can't drive, has no friends, and is effectively dooming herself.

My wife and I have been pleading with her to slow down on the divorce and get back on her meds, but she is adamantly refusing both.

We looked into having her institutionalized, but from what we've talked to doctors and they've basically said that has enough clarity to realize what she's doing, and that she would have to be willing to go her self, which she's not.

I have no experience with this stuff. I have no idea what to do. I can't consider giving up and leaving her to fend for herself as an option, but what else can be done? Seriously?

I want to rip that psych's face off.
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Postby John W. on Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:25 am

Me too - that's horrible. I wish your family the best in this. I wish I knew what to tell you, but short of some sort of court order (which seems impossible), I don't know what can be done. Maybe others here might have a better idea.
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