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Recommend a... (Tech Room edition)

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Re: Recommend a... (Tech Room edition)

Postby Riff Magnum on Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:13 pm

numberthirty wrote:While I don't wanna be the "Why you gotta be a Grinch, dad?" voice when it comes to this "Board" discussion...

- I take it we are talking in terms of "Sticking With The Current Interface."?

- Does the computer throw a fit at all recording four tracks? If not, I'd want to figure out if it would with eight before thinking in terms of adding a board to the equation.

- What is the space recordings would be happening in?

- What is the current state of the overall setup?



How dare you!! Come in here and ask totally logical and sensible questions.

Yeah man, like most musicians i'm constantly intrigued by how awesome things are GONNA be. Dream setup one of these days!!
So, my current setup is fine for demoing stuff. We moved to a new rehearsal room thats smaller and cheaper, but cleaner/safer/cooler i suppose. No room for a big board at all, but I'm looking to move out of my apartment and into a house in the next year or so and a big priority is having a home "studio" of some sorts. Whether that be a soundproofed garage, shed out back or converting a room in the house.
My computer seems to handle 4 tracks just fine. I've got a few songs with 25-30 tracks and lots of plugins running that have given it some trouble at times, but for the most part smooth sailing.
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Re: Recommend a... (Tech Room edition)

Postby Riff Magnum on Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:17 pm

n.c. wrote:^ i agree with randy. you need to ditch the interface and get a 1/2" 8 track to go with that board. didn't someone recently post an otari in the ebay etc alerts thread?



Yeah, my total wet dream fantasy would be a badass room, solid mic selection, decent board, old tape machine (that I know nothing about) and be able to make convincing recordings at home that I could then take to a local all analog studio "The Echo Lab" and have them mix it.
More than likely i'll just keep making half ass demos and then do the whole record at the Echo lab. Probably cheaper in the long run, but not as fun. Maybe.
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Re: Recommend a... (Tech Room edition)

Postby numberthirty on Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:17 pm

Riff Magnum wrote:More than likely i'll just keep making half ass demos and then do the whole record at the Echo lab. Probably cheaper in the long run, but not as fun. Maybe.


See, now? Now, we're talking sense. It's hard to make a case against that place's results.

As for the setup, it seems like going...

- Smaller board with direct outs

might be where I'd try to start. There are some pretty solid options there, and those direct outs and the interface's line inputs would get you eight tracks.

Starting there, you might be able to get something along the lines of what your "Ideal Setup" would be without tossing too much cash into gear where it might not take.
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Re: Recommend a... (Tech Room edition)

Postby numberthirty on Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:22 pm

Reasoning being that most of the "Close Mic" sort of stuff you'd pick up(if you like that big Peavey microphone on the batter side of a kick, for instance) would carry over if you did wind up in a better situation down the line.
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Re: Recommend a... (Tech Room edition)

Postby bassdriver on Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:40 am

Riff Magnum wrote:So the "Steve Albini Drum resource" thread has got me curios about these old Soundcraft mixers or any old mixer that is considered solid and can be had a little cheaper these days. I use a little 4 channel focus rite to do demos, but it might be nice to have more preamps to record the whole band properly. I'm totally ignorant on how that piece of gear would be integrated with an old mixer like that. I'm also ignorant on how the whole signal path flow moves in totality, like in a "real" studio. I see these vids of Steve miking a drum then the cable goes into the wall, then comes out of the wall in the control room, then goes into the mixer, then goes into a tape machine but also has sends and returns for effects and using other preamps. The whole thing gets confusing to me. I know I just asked like 40 involved questions, so to sum up:
Recommend me some cool old mixers 18-32 channels under $1500.
Should I do that or just buy a bigger Focusrite? They have those Octopres that you can daisy chain.
Recommend some books of videos that really explain signal path and studio design.


old Tascam mixers are pretty good too. especially the M series (M3500 M3700). I would not pay more than a couple of 100 bucks for an old mixer if it's not been recapped recently. bring a cd player/ ipod when you go to check one out, to be able to check all the faders and pots. get something modular, so you can remove the channel strips and repair them if necessary.
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Re: Recommend a... (Tech Room edition)

Postby Adam P on Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:39 am

So many things to consider with a mixer...

-Will it be used for tracking only or also for OTB mixing? If the latter, routing capabilities and inclusion of a tape return/mix B path may be things you want to consider.

-Age and ease of maintenance. How old is the board? Is it likely to need a re-cap? Does it use any obsolete ICs? Are the channel strips modular or if a channel goes bad will the whole board need to be decommissioned? This is a big area where doing the maintenance yourself vs using a tech factors in.

-As mentioned already, budget a lot for cabling. And be on the lookout for used cabling. Most importantly, learn how to make and maintain your own cables...the cost savings can be tremendous. Once you develop a routine, it becomes a pretty rote task and you can knock out a whole bunch of cables while watching a movie or ballgame or something.

-Along with cabling, you’ll also probably want at least a basic patchbay setup. That in turn means more cabling.

Quality of desk preamps notwithstanding, the value-add of a well-thought out mixer-based setup isn’t necessarily something you’ll hear but rather in keeping things moving along without a lot of downtime. That’s what I took away from Steve’s comments on using the board preamps even if “better” outboard is available.

Also, I’m not sure if fm n.c. was referring to me, but a few months ago I did post in the Gear Liquidation thread that I have an Otari MX-5050 8-track that I’m interested in selling.
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Re: Recommend a... (Tech Room edition)

Postby Space Hairdresser on Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:54 pm

Just wanted to drop by and thank people for the help I found here (ages ago!). I couldn't find an HH VS Musician for a sensible price, but I kept looking and recently found a similar amp for cheap - the HH IC100. I would totally reccommend old HH electronics models to anyone looking for something loud, not too expensive and pretty amazing sounding. Running keyboard through it sounds great too.
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Re: Recommend a... (Tech Room edition)

Postby weezy on Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:49 pm

Space Hairdresser wrote:Just wanted to drop by and thank people for the help I found here (ages ago!). I couldn't find an HH VS Musician for a sensible price, but I kept looking and recently found a similar amp for cheap - the HH IC100. I would totally reccommend old HH electronics models to anyone looking for something loud, not too expensive and pretty amazing sounding. Running keyboard through it sounds great too.


Me and FM Redline have shared ownership of an old HH Bass Machine head, and we like it.
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Re: Recommend a... (Tech Room edition)

Postby JohnnySomersett on Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:52 pm

weezy wrote:
Space Hairdresser wrote:Just wanted to drop by and thank people for the help I found here (ages ago!). I couldn't find an HH VS Musician for a sensible price, but I kept looking and recently found a similar amp for cheap - the HH IC100. I would totally reccommend old HH electronics models to anyone looking for something loud, not too expensive and pretty amazing sounding. Running keyboard through it sounds great too.


Me and FM Redline have shared ownership of an old HH Bass Machine head, and we like it.


I sourced one for FM elisha wiesner a while back and shipped it over stateside for him. To be honest, I put a shout-out on facebook and got offers of about 4 or 5 so I'm surprised you struggled to find one!

I tested it before I sent it over and it was indeed a great sounding bit of kit. I know Elisha loves it.
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Re: Recommend a... (Tech Room edition)

Postby weezy on Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:10 pm

weezy wrote:
Otherwise I'm looking at this Tascam US-16x08

http://tascam.com/product/us-16x08/


For anyone who cares, I got the Tascam above and it sounded ok, but I couldn't fix the pops/glitches I get every so often....not my first rodeo, so I suspect driver lameness or Win 10 compatibility issues, so off it goes.

Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 is now in hand and I get to plug it in tonight to see what's what.
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Re: Recommend a... (Tech Room edition)

Postby JohnnySomersett on Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:44 pm

Recommend an...


Amp that sounds the most like an old Orange OR120/80 but in a more manageable wattage format.

The Baxandall plays a big part in the sound, as does the nasty crossover distortion and phase inverter. I have mine down to 2 tubes and biased cold yet, through most cabs it's still blisteringly loud! I have a 4x10 with old inefficient speakers that works well for most gig's but I'd love to find something around the 20-25w range that will approximate it pretty accurately. Not opposed to combos either.
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Re: Recommend a... (Tech Room edition)

Postby llllllllllllllllllllllll on Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:02 pm

JohnnySomersett wrote:Recommend an...


Amp that sounds the most like an old Orange OR120/80 but in a more manageable wattage format.

The Baxandall plays a big part in the sound, as does the nasty crossover distortion and phase inverter. I have mine down to 2 tubes and biased cold yet, through most cabs it's still blisteringly loud! I have a 4x10 with old inefficient speakers that works well for most gig's but I'd love to find something around the 20-25w range that will approximate it pretty accurately. Not opposed to combos either.


I think the Balls Twenty similar to an Orange in some respects, talk to that guy.
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Re: Recommend a... (Tech Room edition)

Postby numberthirty on Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:41 pm

JohnnySomersett wrote:Recommend an...

Amp that sounds the most like an old Orange OR120/80 but in a more manageable wattage format.


If "Something Priced Modestly That I Can Replace" is over on the left and "Will Actually Do A Great Job At This No Matter What" is over on the right, where are you standing?
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Re: Recommend a... (Tech Room edition)

Postby Dr Tony Balls on Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:48 pm

llllllllllllllllllllllll wrote:
JohnnySomersett wrote:Recommend an...


Amp that sounds the most like an old Orange OR120/80 but in a more manageable wattage format.

The Baxandall plays a big part in the sound, as does the nasty crossover distortion and phase inverter. I have mine down to 2 tubes and biased cold yet, through most cabs it's still blisteringly loud! I have a 4x10 with old inefficient speakers that works well for most gig's but I'd love to find something around the 20-25w range that will approximate it pretty accurately. Not opposed to combos either.


I think the Balls Twenty similar to an Orange in some respects, talk to that guy.


It is similar in terms of tone stack but it doesn't have a cathodyne phase inverter. I could easily just make a straight OR clone with a smaller back end, though. Shipping from the states is kind of a bummer though.

There's the Matamp Series 2000 maybe, but I'd wager those are pretty pricey even over there.
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Re: Recommend a... (Tech Room edition)

Postby JohnnySomersett on Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:28 am

numberthirty wrote:
JohnnySomersett wrote:Recommend an...

Amp that sounds the most like an old Orange OR120/80 but in a more manageable wattage format.


If "Something Priced Modestly That I Can Replace" is over on the left and "Will Actually Do A Great Job At This No Matter What" is over on the right, where are you standing?


Either/or, to be honest. I have no issue paying the right money for something that does it right. Obviously if I can find something that is cheap and does it, that's great, if not - well - so be it... I'll just stump up the cash.



Dr Tony Balls wrote:
llllllllllllllllllllllll wrote:
JohnnySomersett wrote:Recommend an...


Amp that sounds the most like an old Orange OR120/80 but in a more manageable wattage format.

The Baxandall plays a big part in the sound, as does the nasty crossover distortion and phase inverter. I have mine down to 2 tubes and biased cold yet, through most cabs it's still blisteringly loud! I have a 4x10 with old inefficient speakers that works well for most gig's but I'd love to find something around the 20-25w range that will approximate it pretty accurately. Not opposed to combos either.


I think the Balls Twenty similar to an Orange in some respects, talk to that guy.


It is similar in terms of tone stack but it doesn't have a cathodyne phase inverter. I could easily just make a straight OR clone with a smaller back end, though. Shipping from the states is kind of a bummer though.

There's the Matamp Series 2000 maybe, but I'd wager those are pretty pricey even over there.


Yeah, the Matamps are expensive but not wholly out of reach - they're about £1400/$1900. I wouldn't be opposed to a custom unit either - and not scared of a little shipping expense

What output tubes would you look to load into something like this? EL84? Or is there something smaller?
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Re: Recommend a... (Tech Room edition)

Postby Dr Tony Balls on Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:49 am

On the Twenty I used 6V6s. I think they tend to sound more midrangey like an EL34. You could certainly get the power-shedding job done similarly with EL84s, though. I did the Twenty with 2x6V6, fixed bias with relatively high-ish plate voltages for ~20W. If you really wanted to cover all bases you could do a switchable 2/4 x6V6 backend and have a ~20W/40W duder.

Also, fwiw, custom from me +UK shipping should still be less than £1400/$1900.
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Re: Recommend a... (Tech Room edition)

Postby JohnnySomersett on Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:02 am

Dr Tony Balls wrote:On the Twenty I used 6V6s. I think they tend to sound more midrangey like an EL34. You could certainly get the power-shedding job done similarly with EL84s, though. I did the Twenty with 2x6V6, fixed bias with relatively high-ish plate voltages for ~20W. If you really wanted to cover all bases you could do a switchable 2/4 x6V6 backend and have a ~20W/40W duder.

Also, fwiw, custom from me +UK shipping should still be less than £1400/$1900.


Yeah, it turns out we spoke about this a year ago! I found this in my PM box:

Dr Tony Balls wrote:
JohnnySomersett wrote:Go on then, you piqued my interest....

Could you roughly price up a 40/20w OR-alike for me?

Standard OR120 circuit/layout (bandaxall, FAC control, Hi/Lo inputs)
Good for 4/8/16ohm (I guess the transformer would have to do 2/4/8 also for when the 2 tubes are dropped out? or is there some electronics wizardry that can overcome this?)
Maybe a defeatable MV at the rear?
240v (or multivolt) trannies
Standby switch.

Just in a plain black tolex sleeve, chrome corners.

JS


So the total im getting is $**** USD, plus shipping. Im really not sure what shipping will be overseas....do you know who a good carrier would be? I've looked at US Postal and get a quote of ~$150, and FedEx is even more.

The transformer I selected currently is set for 4/8/16 @ 4 tubes, which would change to 8/16/32 @ 2 tubes, which a least means you get 8 and 16 covered.

Basically everything ive been doing lately has been in a plain black tolex sleeve with a wood front, like those pictured in the thread. I can accomodate chrome corners, I think.

T


Having spent more & more time with my amp I've realized that the FAC is irrelevant to me (as it stays on full-left forever) - as is any kind of presence control (always on zero) - so it'd need just a Bass, Treble & Volume knob (and maybe the sneaky master volume around the back) and only 1 guitar input!

It might be an option to go 20w/10w so it could get some home-use but I don't know if any regular power tubes can be configured to run like that without it getting really complicated!
Last edited by JohnnySomersett on Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Recommend a... (Tech Room edition)

Postby Dr Tony Balls on Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:15 am

HA. My memory is shit.

Eliminating the FAC and presence is easily doable, but doesnt do much for cost savings. Making a two tube 20W amp drop to ~10W is *possible* but its not gonna sounds the same. If you're making that concession you might as well just add a master volume control, as you say, and dial that back for home use.
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Re: Recommend a... (Tech Room edition)

Postby JohnnySomersett on Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:31 am

Dr Tony Balls wrote:HA. My memory is shit.

Eliminating the FAC and presence is easily doable, but doesnt do much for cost savings.


It's not about cost but more to do with the beautiful simplicity of a 3-knob Amp!

Dr Tony Balls wrote:Making a two tube 20W amp drop to ~10W is *possible* but its not gonna sounds the same. If you're making that concession you might as well just add a master volume control, as you say, and dial that back for home use.


Valid point well made. I'm guessing a MV can be put in that is out-of-circuit at full tilt?

If all of this can be slammed into a small/medium-format head then I might be game. I have a chunk of change coming to me mid-March and a little treat might be in order!
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Re: Recommend a... (Tech Room edition)

Postby Dr Tony Balls on Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:47 am

JohnnySomersett wrote:
Dr Tony Balls wrote:HA. My memory is shit.

Eliminating the FAC and presence is easily doable, but doesnt do much for cost savings.


It's not about cost but more to do with the beautiful simplicity of a 3-knob Amp!

Dr Tony Balls wrote:Making a two tube 20W amp drop to ~10W is *possible* but its not gonna sounds the same. If you're making that concession you might as well just add a master volume control, as you say, and dial that back for home use.


Valid point well made. I'm guessing a MV can be put in that is out-of-circuit at full tilt?

If all of this can be slammed into a small/medium-format head then I might be game. I have a chunk of change coming to me mid-March and a little treat might be in order!


Yeah there's a few ways of doing a MV and any of them at full volume should sound just as good as if they werent there. One of which is the standard way that Orange did it on the later OD120 models, which is what i've done before and it sounds brilliant. And unless something odd is happening all of my heads are 21"x9"x8.25", which is pretty small.
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