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Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby bishopdante on Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:19 pm

Bubber wrote:
bishopdante wrote:OSB can be relatively fire retardant, is cheap, dimensionally stable and pretty stiff. It also looks quite cool.

It's garbage, though: also horrible with damp (basically turns to oatmeal as it's heavily made of glue), has no minimum requirements for permeability, can off-gas significantly, would strongly not recommend.


I would not be surprised to hear that, it is a chipboard. Can't honestly say I have used/met a great deal of the stuff, and I would not be surprised if not all OSB is the same. Did some speaker boxes with it (was nice and light weight, and they got polyurea inside & out, worked fine, and much cheaper+lighter than birch ply. 4 years later they're reportedly still on the road unscathed).

Pure L wrote:Price is just usually associated with how rugged something is and how long it'll last.


Um... not so much, no.

Obviously the cheapest = the shittest, that's inevitable.

However, most expensive = usually the most rip-off / over-traded / gold plated, not the most industrial quality. It should also be noted that prices can vary enormously with *labour costs* and *factory premises*, and that made in germany is a very different set of costs compared to made in china or brazil. Often for almost exactly the same device a price ratio of 20:1 is not unusual for exactly the same thing.

This is partly due to welfare and environmentalism, but the biggest factor is the currency-rigging.

In terms of electric fans or air movement systems, there are many ways to skin the proverbial cat.

Most air circulation systems are done with fans, which can be axial or radial flow, connected to a motor or propulsion system.

In terms of the various sources of electric motors and fans, ultimately fans can be stuck onto motors.

one device that would be brilliant but would have to be cnc machined or 3d printed, but could equally be hand carved from wood would be a multi'stage axial fan which was inserted into a pipe with sound absorbing stators placed between the stages. The motor to drive that with could be pulled out of almost anything.

Another idea that could be interesting would be to employ a pneumatic pump and a compression chamber, which would fully isolate the inlet from the exterior, and the extra pressure would potentially allow for particulate filtering.

A double helical screw or radial centrifugal compressor for air could be fashioned from CNC ally or even quite plausibly engineered wood. A large-bore piston system could also be built.

The ideal system to my mind would supply pressure by pumping and exhaust using fans.
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby evanrowe on Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:50 am

benadrian wrote:3. Has anyone here built unattractive, soundproof rooms? If so, is there a blog or journal of your experience that I can check out?

And so on.

Thanks!
Ben


Yes, as mentioned by others I did this a couple years back. In the end my desire to preserve as much sound isolation as possible has outweighed my desire to climate control the room, so we keep the portable AC unit running in the shop space and take breaks when we can no longer bear the heat/start feeling faint. We've been very happy with the room overall and have yet to receive a complaint from a neighbor, which is still pretty incredible to me.

One piece of advice I'd offer is to not underestimate the room a band takes up. The interior dimensions of our room are 9'x11'-4" and on paper that was bigger than it is now that there's a drum kit and amps in there. That's about as tight as I think we could go, even as a three-piece. Were I doing it again I might go for a foot or two more in each direction on the building itself.

The WhisperRoom is a great option since you can take it with you if you move, if the cost isn't prohibitive. The 8-1/2'x12' with double walls is over $20K new, though. Construction and electrical materials, tools, and whatever else I needed for both the shop and the rehearsal sides of the shed came to under $3500, so if you have some willing friends and are OK with the room being a more permanent thing, it can be a comparatively inexpensive route.

Feel free to PM me if I can answer any questions! Whatever way you go about this it is so great to practice at home.
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby Bubber on Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:14 pm

evanrowe, those installation details are pretty wild. I'm curious (and am assuming this will be relevant for benadrian when he does his install) if there's a reason you couldn't have run two circuits on shielded 12/3 between a breaker outside your house on out to a subpanel, in which case your trench could have legally probably been much shallower. For example, here in MN, one can run 12/3 to code as high as 12" below grade provided it's inside rigid conduit (such as the flexible grounded exterior stuff).
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby evanrowe on Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:11 am

Bubber wrote:evanrowe, those installation details are pretty wild. I'm curious (and am assuming this will be relevant for benadrian when he does his install) if there's a reason you couldn't have run two circuits on shielded 12/3 between a breaker outside your house on out to a subpanel, in which case your trench could have legally probably been much shallower. For example, here in MN, one can run 12/3 to code as high as 12" below grade provided it's inside rigid conduit (such as the flexible grounded exterior stuff).


Couple reasons, one being the distance of just over 100 feet from house panel to shed. I wanted three separate healthy 20A circuits available at the shed for band receptacles, shop receptacles, and lighting/utilities. Pushing 20A that far required a larger cable. And the two feet I dug for the trench was mostly to be sure I was the required 18" down for the whole length, what with all the roots and bricks and glass and clothing I was digging up.
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby Bubber on Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:43 am

evanrowe wrote:Couple reasons, one being the distance of just over 100 feet from house panel to shed. [...] And the two feet I dug for the trench was mostly to be sure I was the required 18" down for the whole length, what with all the roots and bricks and glass and clothing I was digging up.

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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby morespaceecho on Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:23 am

what i would do:

assuming the garage is unfinished inside, i.e. it's just studs and exterior plywood sheathing

1. 2 layers of 5/8" drywall cut into strips and fastened to the exterior plywood (between the studs)
2. a ton of insulation
3. inner frame with 2 layers of 5/8" drywall
4. inner ceiling mounted on inner wall frame. another 2 layers of drywall on that.

2 layers of drywall would be the minimum, if you're trying to contain a loud rock band you will probably need more. you might well need a lot more.

but mass-air-mass is tried and true, it's what you do. easiest way to add mass is more layers of drywall. i wouldn't mess with concrete blocks or anything. keep it simple.
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby bishopdante on Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:37 pm

This is quite an interesting industrial module from aus:
http://flexshield.com.au/products/modul ... ng-panels/

Acoustic enclosures, acoustic rooms and soundproof walls are simply erected by sliding and clipping the Sonic System acoustic panels into steel capping profiles. Their versatility also allows for windows, doors and ventilation to be incorporated. Being a modular `clip together` system, soundproof panels are easily disassembled and moved in the event of a re-arrange or shift.

All of Flexshield’s Sonic System acoustic panels have NATA accredit test results for Noise Transmission Loss and Noise Absorption. There are several different style designs, thicknesses and acoustic performances available.


_______

One of the easier methods of uprating the sound transmission loss would be to lag the existing garage building with mass loaded vinyl before building the inner room, either from permanent or transportable module construction.

Would suggest that the quilted system would be more transportable but that a taped semi-permanent mlv lagging might be cheaper.

MLV quilt can also be applied to the outer skin of a soundproof booth as well as the inside of the existing structure.
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby morespaceecho on Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:45 pm

i don't think MLV is gonna help with soundproofing any. its use in room construction would be to dampen the resonance of the drywall. i.e. you'd have studs with insulation between them, a layer of MLV, then the drywall.

doing a whole room like that would be really expensive. and it would likely be a foolish thing to do for a room that's intended for a practice space. you'd do that if you were building a zillion dollar mastering room and wanted it as perfect as you could make it.

mass air mass. there's not really any reason to make it more complicated than that.
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby bishopdante on Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:53 pm

I am talking about the heavy duty quilt stuff used in industrial soundproofing. Each layer of that can knock out 50-60dB. Can be applied fairly indiscriminately using various fixings, and is potentially a non-permanent / transportable solution.

Image

Have been using the stuff loads in venues. Pretty basic in application, if you want to make a wall / door / window soundproof... cover it either temporarily or permanently with quilt. Velcro is often all that is required to secure it. Very heavy stuff, 2m x 1m sections require a couple of people to lift.

bishopdante wrote:
Image

Again, the stuff is used for quietening industrial machinery.

Image.


Image

Image
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby morespaceecho on Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:10 pm

if it's super heavy, which i'm sure it is, how do you secure it with only velcro?
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby bishopdante on Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:53 pm

How to velcro the stuff to an object? Get the panels custom built with velcro built into them & apply the correspoding velcro tape (usually a good few inches wide)
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby TylerSavage on Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:40 pm

bishopdante wrote:How to velcro the stuff to an object? Get the panels custom built with velcro built into them & apply the correspoding velcro tape (usually a good few inches wide)



yeah no problem! Just get everything custom built. That stuff isn't cheap to begin with; not even close.
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby bishopdante on Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:52 pm

Getting quilt made to measure is normal, is usually no extra expense. The usual off the shelf industrial panel format is 8ft x 4ft with velcro edges to make a seal rather than physically secure the panels. 80-90% of the time the panels are made to measure rather than 8x4, and the companies supplying the stuff do not find it annoying or prohibitively expensive, and can clad most objects including non-flat surfaces and large bits of complex air conditioning equipment. The ordering lead time I am used to for the stuff is a couple of days. Have found it indispensable for venues that can't be shut for weeks to install soundproofing.

The cheapest option for lagging is the most basic non-quilted grade of MLV, which costs about $1.25 per square foot, and can be appiled like very ugly black wallpaper. Treating the shell of a building with the stuff is very common practise these days.

Image

It has loads of uses, it can be applied over or bonded onto surfaces, or laminated into various panels as a general purpose decoupling / mass / damping component. Typically combined with drywall, plywood, steel sheeting etc in various thicknesses.

The fiberglass-decoupled quilt panels cost a bit more, but for a small space, I would estimate that total coverage of the exterior of the inner shell would not cost significantly more than a couple of thousand dollars for a small room, and minimises the requirement for labour when fitting it into a constrained void space between the existing structure and the proposed prefabricated / modular shell.

The primary advantage of using an industrial module system clad with quilt would be in the ability to construct & deconstruct it quickly, and move it to another location.

Industrial system in short: clad the inside of the existing garage structure with the basic & cheapest 1lb weight vinyl off the roll, then build the inner room using industrial soundproofing modules with the exterior of the inner modular structure clad with fiberglass/mlv quilt.

Building any sort of soundproof space has material and labour costs. There's no way of escaping that, and it is a great idea to make removable modules if possible to preserve the investment.

Whisper rooms modular rooms could also be lagged with quilt, and the containing room lagged with MLV to produce more isolation.

MLV is favourable because it is cheap, heavy, limp, and thin, enabling a soundproof wall which does not have to be 4ft thick.

_____

Can't seem to find out terribly much about how whisper rooms have made their units, but it seems to be CNC 3/4" MDF covered in grey carpet, so better can surely be done.

Would not be terribly hard to build something similar using water jet cut plywood that would perform better.

______

The basic problem with building a modular system is the weight handling. Concrete blocks are of a certain size that a person can handle, and making a sound proof wall unit that a person can lift is not a totally simple task.

This steel and fiberglass industrial modular wall panel unit's basic design is quite good:

Image

Image

A similar sort of construction could be done with plywood w/heavy duty backing including mass loaded vinyl + MDF + green glue + polyurethane foam etc, and faced either with water jet cut plywood or canvas panels.

(Then externally clad with quilt)
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby morespaceecho on Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:59 pm

or you could build isolated walls with drywall like everyone else.
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby Bubber on Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:07 pm

morespaceecho wrote:mass air mass. there's not really any reason to make it more complicated than that.


Your double-stud approach is good! Except you forgot the air-sealing step—sealing cracks, which is a step more complicated, because sound passes that way, which is a reason.

Worth dropping $30 on aggressive tape and doing it right before those most-tapeable surfaces get buried in insulation and walled in.

I'm repeating myself, so carry on.
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby benadrian on Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:39 pm

I'm still appreciating the debate and discussion. Personally, I think I have enough info for the moment. Also, I'm probably at least six months from even starting and now I'm not even sure it needs to be as aggressively as "sound tight" as I'd thought. Blergh.
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby morespaceecho on Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:17 pm

Bubber wrote:Except you forgot the air-sealing step—sealing cracks


i didn't forget, i was just being brief. of course you need to seal the thing up tight if you want it to work right.

ben, how big is your garage?
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby eliya on Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:10 am

Bubber wrote:
morespaceecho wrote:mass air mass. there's not really any reason to make it more complicated than that.


air-sealing step—sealing cracks


These are the cracks between sheets of drywall? Between the floor and walls and walls and ceiling?

Bubber wrote:Worth dropping $30 on aggressive tape and doing it right before those most-tapeable surfaces get buried in insulation and walled in.


What is this tape you speak of?
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby Adam P on Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:20 am

My understanding is that you don't want the walls, floor, and ceiling to be in physical contact. So anywhere you have a corner, you'd leave a small gap, like 1/8", seal the gap with caulk, and tape it.
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby greg on Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:44 am

Probably echoing some people here, sorry if so, but a < $2k simple option -

2x4 stud walls and 2x6 or 2x8 ceiling joist room built about 10" inside the exterior walls/ceiling. Nothing tied to the existing structure. Open face insulation on walls and ceiling of garage, and exterior of the new room (do not sheet with drywall). On the inside of the room, 2-4 sheets of drywall, caulk all seams and cracks of each layer with resilient "sound" caulk, so it stays flexible forever. Sheet over seams on the prior layers with each additional layer. Surface mount electrical boxes and lights (try to keep penetrations to a minimum). Use a wood, solid core door, with semi rigid weatherstripping for the door stops.
If you want to go an extra step, putting a layer of drywall between the garage studs/ceiling joists and caulk the fuck out of the seams before putting up insulation. Just make it air tight. Most garages have all sorts of air leaks
Loud bass will get through, but hopefully at an acceptable level.

Depending on how your garage is built, it might have a slight grade on the part of the floor you're building on. If you don't plan on building a new level floor, just make sure you build everything proper and level. This might mean a bit of a pain in the butt framing properly. Resist the instinct to do things quickly.

If you want to have heat or ac (good idea), I'd get the smallest mini-spit air conditioner.
If you want fresh air, you can put vents on either side of the room. Build plenum boxes out of 3/4" plywood, and duct insulation on the exterior side with a duct fan sucking air out into the rest of the garage (drawing air through the other plenum).

If there's an unused garage door or window where you're doing this, remove and wall the openings off first. Everything's reversible if you end up selling your house down the road.
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