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tvshow: twin peaks

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tvshow: twin peaks

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Re: tvshow: twin peaks

Postby Anthony Flack on Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:25 pm

Auntie Ovipositor wrote:It is overwhelmingly committed to the soap opera trope. If those things are what you value, this is not going to make you happy. The show is willfully committed to not having things like acting and exposition.


Man, I can't agree with that. In terms of exposition they don't always spell everything out, for sure (although they do actually provide more answers than might be expected).

But The Return has the most extraordinary acting. Some naturalistic and raw, some peculiar and mannered, some of that kind of over-the-top facial gymnastics that Kubrick liked so much. I also think the soap opera business is almost entirely absent. There's no Invitation to Love, no tangled love triangles, no pining after anybody. It's more of a supernatural crime drama this time. Sort of.

But it's a lot of things. So much contrasting material. Some parts ridiculously fake, some unbearably real.
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Re: tvshow: twin peaks

Postby Anthony Flack on Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:35 pm

Redline wrote:I still plan to binge watch the new show, but I'm sure I have a ton of other things to do before that happens.


I couldn't do it, not for a first viewing at least. One hour is plenty enough to digest in a sitting.

It's worth checking out some of the recaps online as you go too. The Entertainment Weekly ones are particularly comprehensive. Ignore all the nerdilising speculation and fan-gushing they do, that's not important, but it will connect all the dots to the original show that you might have missed or forgotten.
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Re: tvshow: twin peaks

Postby Auntie Ovipositor on Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:13 pm

Anthony Flack wrote:There's no Invitation to Love, no tangled love triangles, no pining after anybody.


Pretty much everything that happens in the town is love triangles (the diner owner and.. Ed?) and pining (whatsername for golden shovel dude). Troubled daughter dating a bad boy? Check. Powerful hotel owner courting his assistant with her crippled husband at home? Check. Dougie is entirely the sort of plot mechanism that gets used in soaps, along the lines of long-lost twin brothers and people with amnesia who Hold The Secret to something or other. Music cues like the theme coming in when Coop comes back. Civil War dude from season 2 as well. And most important of all, a seemingly endless stream of conflicts that seem all encompassing until something else suddenly shows up and everyone moves on to something else, allowing an endless stream of arcs that can carry a show along for decades without ever having to resolve anything.

These ideas, with their mix of melodrama and mechanisms of fate, are all culled from soaps, regardless of how quirky their execution. It's an interesting idea, it just doesn't work for me in execution.

Some parts ridiculously fake, some unbearably real.


Which parts did you find unbearably real?

[Please please please say it's the Over The Top homage]
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Re: tvshow: twin peaks

Postby Anthony Flack on Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:39 pm

If you listen to the Mark Frost interview, his motivations are very different from the "endless stream of arcs"; he talks about having one definite story in mind, with a start and end point, while determining that they would take the time to visit anything interesting they passed along the way. His comparisons were that it was like a road movie, or The Odyssey.

A lot of the other characters' stories are very small; just a scene or two. All the business with Norma and Ed, Ben and his assistant, Jacoby and Nadine that you mention, that all takes up almost no screen time. Ditto with the melodramatic music cues... they were all over the original series but this time they're almost completely absent. Remember how after episode 1 & 2, everybody was saying "where's the music?"

Which parts did you find unbearably real?

Please please please say it's the Over The Top homage


Yeah, that's the one, for sure.

I'll answer that properly when I have more time to reply.
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Re: tvshow: twin peaks

Postby Auntie Ovipositor on Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:37 pm

Anthony Flack wrote:If you listen to the Mark Frost interview, his motivations are very different from the "endless stream of arcs"; he talks about having one definite story in mind, with a start and end point, while determining that they would take the time to visit anything interesting they passed along the way. His comparisons were that it was like a road movie, or The Odyssey.

Meh. I've seen a lot of road movies and read The Odyssey, and this has a lot more in common with General Hospital.

A lot of the other characters' stories are very small; just a scene or two. All the business with Norma and Ed, Ben and his assistant, Jacoby and Nadine that you mention, that all takes up almost no screen time. Ditto with the melodramatic music cues... they were all over the original series but this time they're almost completely absent. Remember how after episode 1 & 2, everybody was saying "where's the music?"

I'm not willing to go back and time it, but those scenes take up plenty of screen time. Way too much I'd argue, since the only thing I see them adding to the whole is minutes. But regardless, Dougie and the whole Vegas thing goes on and on and on in a very soaps-like manner. The bits that aren't (that hint at something bigger or more complex than a stock-issue amnesia/evil twin/etc character) are few and far between. I'm going to assume that you thought a lot more of those scenes and found something deeper in them. That's cool - I'm all for people liking art and won't try to dissuade you. I just disagree.
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Re: tvshow: twin peaks

Postby Anthony Flack on Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:01 pm

Aww, you didn't like the Dougie? That's too bad cos there was certainly a lot of him. How about that part where he's pawing at the statue, and you're waiting for something to happen, and he just keeps doing it and doing it, and nothing happens, and then the credits roll. And then the next episode opens back onto the same scene! Haha.

The best joke was that after fans had spent 12 hours tearing their hair out waiting for Coop to wake up, when he finally does he reports that he was experiencing profound joy the whole time due to becoming a husband and father. Perhaps people need to stop being in such a hurry to get to somewhere else and learn to enjoy the moment.

Something Tarantino said recently - he wasn't going to think about having kids until he was done making films. I immediately thought when I read this, perhaps if he did have kids then his films might not be so emotionally shallow. The few times that children appear in his films, like in Kill Bill, he has no idea what to do with them and it's very obvious.

David Lynch has always been a dad as long as he's made films. He'd had a baby before he made Eraserhead, as everybody can tell. And he'd raised a teenage daughter before he made Twin Peaks. Twin Peaks The Return has a lot of young sons in it, and apparently it also has Lynch's own son playing in one of the bands there.

So. You've got that scene with the two Tarantino characters sitting in their van talking their pop-philosophical bullshit talk, hamburgers and torture, and then they brutally execute the warden outside his house. Ok, pretty nasty. And then, a moment later, his little boy who has been waiting for his dad to come home from work comes running out and we get to see two seconds of his world caving in before the scene ends.

It's a horrible little detail that makes the killing of the warden into a ghastly tragedy. It's the kind of detail Tarantino wouldn't include; it's antithetical to all his hard boilded tough-guy juvenilia.

Ok, so this is an example of the kind of painfully real details I said I was going to come back to. Lynch is pretty effective at sticking needles into all the exposed nerves of a parent's worst fears. Another example, say the bit where the other little boy was killed like he was, and his mother is holding his broken body and wailing and all these other people are standing around gawping and it goes on and on, that unrelenting moment. Unbearable.

And then abruptly shift gears to something non-naturalistic and artificial, and people sure aren't used to seeing that kind of presentation on TV either.

Some other different examples of abrupt shifts from mannered, absurdist presentation into painful reality - Ike the Spike's stabbing murders. Yeek, I felt that. Watching him squick that spike around with the camera right up close me feel like I was getting murdered.

Or a different sort again - Margaret Lanterman talking about dying, as performed by Catherine Coulson who was literally about to die, for actual real. In among the Log Lady's usual gnomic pronouncements, frank talk about death from somebody who was dying with dignity at that moment.

And a lot of the peripheral material was directly addressing the real-life 25 years that had passed. People had died, or were about to. Everybody was old. Carl said all-too accurately that at his age, he's just waiting for the hammer to fall. By the time I watched the episode where Carl plays the song, Harry Dean Stanton had indeed died. And seeing him singing and playing the guitar like that - beautifully - and looking every one of his 95 years, it takes you a bit closer to the real person than an actor playing a character you know? So that was another kind of way the show hit at real feels.

As a final blurring of the lines, the woman at the Palmer house claiming to be the owner at the end was the house's actual real-life owner.
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Re: tvshow: twin peaks

Postby ooop on Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:37 am

Redline wrote:That's good advice. The second season of Twin Peaks was brutal, especially in the pre-DVR days, when we were watching it live on TV, wading through tons of commercials and hoping something in the show would get going, and it didn't get going until the very end, you kids don't know how good you have it these days.

I still plan to binge watch the new show, but I'm sure I have a ton of other things to do before that happens.


I would strongly, strongly urge you against binging The Return. I say this as somebody who produced and hosted a pretty detailed recap podcast for every episode, so I think I might know what I am talking about. I'm not saying you have to wait a week between watching each episode (though that's certainly a good idea) and I'm definitely not saying you need to listen to my podcast, but this is the densest TV show I could imagine ever watching. Your enjoyment will benefit from taking some time off to let yourself absorb what you just saw. I think my brain would nearly explode if I binged more than 2-3 episodes of this show at a time. Binging several episodes in a sitting of Seasons 1-2 is much easier to do, if you want to do that.
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Re: tvshow: twin peaks

Postby Anthony Flack on Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:41 pm

Also, a lot of the scenes are quite striking and stick in the mind. Binge watch if you like but I found myself wanting to go slower.

There's an element of wanting to find out what happens next, but it's not all keyed up with suspense like say Breaking Bad which made people want to watch a season in a day. I think the natural instinct is more likely to be to want to stop and process after each one.
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Re: tvshow: twin peaks

Postby Redline on Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:05 pm

It may be awhile till I have time anyway, I'll watch at a leisurely pace then... :D
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Re: tvshow: twin peaks

Postby Anthony Flack on Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:37 pm

It's a bit like if a band I like suddenly put out an 18 disc album. I couldn't just sit down and bang them all into my brain one after the other. Maybe a better comparison would be like trying to watch all of David Lynch's films for the first time, back to back in one go.

I still find it hard to believe that this has happened actually. He's only made one extremely outré film since Mulholland Dr. at the beginning of the millennium, and for a long time it looked like he was not going to make any more and was going to stick to painting and music instead. And then suddenly he drops 18 hours worth of movie, which is just about as big as all his previous movies put together and no less diverse.
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Re: tvshow: twin peaks

Postby Limmo on Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:00 pm

I agree with 99% of what you say here, especially:

Anthony Flack wrote:
The best joke was that after fans had spent 12 hours tearing their hair out waiting for Coop to wake up, when he finally does he reports that he was experiencing profound joy the whole time due to becoming a husband and father. Perhaps people need to stop being in such a hurry to get to somewhere else and learn to enjoy the moment.


But:
Anthony Flack wrote:And then, a moment later, his little boy who has been waiting for his dad to come home from work comes running out and we get to see two seconds of his world caving in before the scene ends.

It's a horrible little detail that makes the killing of the warden into a ghastly tragedy. It's the kind of detail Tarantino wouldn't include; it's antithetical to all his hard boilded tough-guy juvenilia.


Not exactly true:
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Re: tvshow: twin peaks

Postby Anthony Flack on Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:06 pm

Aw man, I can't watch that as it's not available in my territory and I never saw Django because Tarantino has disappeared so far up his own ass that I have no desire to see another Tarantino movie until I hear something different.

Knowing how much Tarantino hated Fire Walk With Me I thought this was amusing.

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Re: tvshow: twin peaks

Postby Anthony Flack on Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:02 am

I just watched the Fire Walk With Me deleted scenes, and it makes me want to see it all together in its original long form. It seems like the extended version with all its different scenes would be closer in feel to The Return.

Plus the movie is a whole lot easier to follow with all those extra bits. There's all kinds of story beats and setups and resolutions. Theresa Banks being too clever for her own good. Chester Desmond's confrontation with the bar-bending sheriff. Doc Hayward telling Laura the angel would return to her. A proper David Bowie scene. It even explains the significance of Laura declaring "I am the muffin". It felt like all the cut sequences really should have been included and were only cut out to make the film feature length.
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Re: tvshow: twin peaks

Postby brephophagist on Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:04 pm

Anthony Flack wrote:I just watched the Fire Walk With Me deleted scenes, and it makes me want to see it all together in its original long form.

Not going to link here for what should be obvious reasons, but if you go search "Twin Peaks Fire Walk With Me Q2 Fanedit v2.1" on torrent-search sites, you'll find a fanedit that pretty much does exactly that.
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Re: tvshow: twin peaks

Postby Anthony Flack on Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:53 pm

Have you watched it? Is it an improvement? I feel like it would be.

Lynch talked about feeling "a sadness" about having to cut the scenes out originally, and I guess he would have never released all the extra bits at all if he really thought it was better without them, since he's usually pretty militant about not supplying any supplementary content to a film.
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Re: tvshow: twin peaks

Postby andyman on Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:33 pm

To be honest, I think too much explanation in Lynch's work can feel heavy-handed very quickly and kill the sense of mystery. Maybe it's just his execution.
I liked the deleted scenes from FWWM on their own, but I did not need a sequential explanation of how they got the body in the film itself. The extra exposition by the Man from Another Place was fun and all, but a little too much and clearly just for YOU THE VIEWER.
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Re: tvshow: twin peaks

Postby Anthony Flack on Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:42 am

I wouldn't give a toss about any of this mythology and symbolic stuff if Lynch wasn't such an effective filmmaker. I'm primarily in it for the cinematic moment-to-moment. And I really, really like how much he has been able to take his time with series 3. All those parts that people complain are boring, it's great.

FWWM would have had a more measured pace if it hadn't been hacked down, and I guess the only reason it was hacked down is because he couldn't release it as a four hour movie. Only now he's found a way to make an 18 hour movie, which seems to suit him better than the format restrictions of either multiplex cinema or broadcast TV.

So I'd be interested to see how the long-form FWWM plays out with the scenes restored, sometime. Because I think it bears some scars from being edited down.
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Re: tvshow: twin peaks

Postby brephophagist on Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:26 am

Anthony Flack wrote:Have you watched it? Is it an improvement? I feel like it would be.

It is in most respects, yeah. I mean it's not Lynch's edit, and it makes the film almost 4 hours long, so... there's that, but it does pretty much what you'd expect:
- Teresa Banks' pre-death timeline is much clearer
- it's much more obvious that the Pink Room is not in the Roadhouse
- the Bowie stuff doesn't make any more sense, but it at least has something beyond the single Philadelphia scene
- Laura's freakouts are a little less out-of-leftfield

The only scenes I can recall offhand that really feel out of place are the Dell Mibbler "2x4" and Ed / Norma "breathalyzer" scenes, which is fine because they're both pretty charming and a refreshing break from the intensity of the rest of the film.
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Re: tvshow: twin peaks

Postby Anthony Flack on Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:55 pm

brephophagist wrote:- it's much more obvious that the Pink Room is not in the Roadhouse


Yeah, all the little things like that. Oh we're in Canada now? Good to know. Or the fact that as we go into the scene, Laura has just snapped at Donna for being so uptight which is why Donna subsequently behaves like she does.

And all the other small things Laura does. Her relationship with her mother, and with Leland when he's being his weird "nice" self. The way she charms all the other parents - "Bobby's in the basement" - "Where he belongs, right? Yuk yuk". Or the absolutely bizarre way she behaves when Bobby murders the cop, and she's still ribbing him about it at school the next day. Just about all the scenes where she's not freaking out.

The 2x4 conversation could probably be passed over but a lot of what was cut seems like important core content.
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Re: tvshow: twin peaks

Postby Anthony Flack on Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:34 pm

And so, naturally, when Lynch introduced The Missing Pieces, his entire introductory speech was given over to thoughts related to the 2x4 scene.

There is an abundance of fish in the sea. But tonight, I would like to speak about wood. There are many times in the world when the phone rings and someone is inquiring about wood. This happens primarily at lumber yards and in this case, it’s necessary to have a phone. It is only natural that trees are growing and that they are made of wood. Much happiness can come from observing a tree and the same can be said about observing the many shapes fashioned out of wood. Quite often when we are talking about beauty, we are talking about wood. Thank you very much!


So this Missing Pieces business came out in 2014, when he was already working on The Return. And he had talked about doing a restored long cut of FWWM in the past but apparently there are rights issues with that. Still he's felt strongly enough about it to take the highly unusual step of releasing all the other bits as a kind of companion movie.

And it is good stuff too.
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