Filmmaker: Werner Herzog

[krs]

I know it's been brought up numerous times, but I think it is extremely naive to assume our justice system can or will always convict the actual person who committed the crime. You may not be concerned with that, however.

[AnthonyCinder]

This thread is really starting to give me deja vu.

[krs]

This thread is really starting to give me deja vu.

Ha, ha. Yeah. I thought I was in that thread for a minute. Maybe it hasn't been brought up here.

[Marsupialized]

I know it's been brought up numerous times, but I think it is extremely naive to assume our justice system can or will always convict the actual person who committed the crime. You may not be concerned with that, however.

You are speaking as if I am a die hard proponent of the death penalty, I am not. I do not care what they do to these criminals. Kill them, throw them in jail, do not care. If people think that innocent people being executed is happening, they should work to reform the system or ban the death penalty in their state, if that's what they feel is the right thing to do. I can see where that would be a cause people would get involved in and I fully support it. I also see where killing a terrible, extreme murderer would be the correct thing to do and fully support it if it's currently an option and the survivors want it. No problem with that. All you can do is work within the system you find yourself in best you can or work to change it best you can if it's not what you want it to be.

I do not see where executing innocent people is an argument for banning the death penalty, though. If you were completely innocent of a terrible crime, and convicted of it anyway, would you rather spend the rest of your life in prison or just be executed and be done with it?

[krs]

I do not see where executing innocent people is an argument for banning the death penalty, though. If you were completely innocent of a terrible crime, and convicted of it anyway, would you rather spend the rest of your life in prison or just be executed and be done with it?

The dead cannot tell their story. Death is permanence.

[Marsupialized]

Yeah unless it's found out they were innocent later and their execution suddenly makes a more profound statement, more able to dramatically change minds and effect change. What would be more likely to get people to re-think their stance on capital punishment, an innocent man being released down the line (see? The system works!) or a man who was put to death later being exonerated beyond any doubt? Which would be more likely to make someone re-think being massively in favor of capital punishment?

[krs]

In my experience among death penalty supporters, there there is a kind of acceptable loss sort of mentality. For many, the death of an innocent person is seen as simply the cost of doing business, so to speak. Death penalty supporters tend to fully acknowledge the shortcomings of our legal system and that innocent people will die (as the undoubtedly have in the past). The need for revenge is so strong, they just don't care. It is seen an acceptable loss, so as long as the system is "right" more than it is wrong. I don't know what equation these supporters use. It would be interesting to find that out.

[Marsupialized]

I have never heard anyone who I've known who would be in the 'pro' camp say anything like that. They all say 'well, they had a trial and were found guilty' and will express a sadness that yes, once and awhile a jury will make a mistake but that is just the system that is in place and the best we can do as humans.
I do not think many people exist like you describe, who just say 'I don't care if innocent people get killed' and shoot their guns in the air and yell 'Yee-haw!' If they do, I have never met one and really hope I never do. People can have different opinions on things than you, even stuff as heavy as this and not be mindless monsters, you know.

[krs]

I have never heard anyone who I've known who would be in the 'pro' camp say anything like that. They all say 'well, they had a trial and were found guilty' and will express a sadness that yes, once and awhile a jury will make a mistake but that is just the system that is in place and the best we can do as humans.
I do not think many people exist like you describe, who just say 'I don't care if innocent people get killed' and shoot their guns in the air and yell 'Yee-haw!' If they do, I have never met one and really hope I never do. People can have different opinions on things than you, even stuff as heavy as this and not be mindless monsters, you know.

Oh, those people most certainly exist. We had a discussion about this last week.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8295&hilit=death+penalty&start=380#p1482217

You should talk to talk to death penalty supporters more often. The whole well, they had a trial and were found guilty is a cop-out, and these are those people. This reasoning is used precisely because they do not want to address the reality they know to be the truth. Only a fool would say no innocent person has ever been convicted and executed in the history of death penalties. It has happened. It will happen again. Courts of law are not infallible, nor are they designed to be.

[Marsupialized]

I know many people who are death penalty supporters, and I speak to them about it often. Not one declares they do not give a shit that innocent people get executed as part of the process, and everyone agrees that yes, it does happen. Every one will express some sort of regret that it happens and a desire for it to happen less.

[Bernardo]

I know many people who are death penalty supporters, and I speak to them about it often. Not one declares they do not give a shit that innocent people get executed as part of the process, and everyone agrees that yes, it does happen. Every one will express some sort of regret that it happens and a desire for it to happen less.

Well, that balances it.

[krs]

Some sort of regret, sure. A lot of people will say that. As I said earlier: supporters fully acknowledge that innocent people have and will die under death penalties, but it's irrelevant to the argument for them. If I were wrongly convicted and put to death, as in your scenario, later found to be innocent, my death would have little impact on their opinion of revenge killings. My death would be an acceptable loss, my life given up to the system for the overall greater good.

[Marsupialized]

I know many people who are death penalty supporters, and I speak to them about it often. Not one declares they do not give a shit that innocent people get executed as part of the process, and everyone agrees that yes, it does happen. Every one will express some sort of regret that it happens and a desire for it to happen less.

Well, that balances it.

Again, I am simply commenting, I am not singing their praises. I do not have strong feelings one way or the other one people on either side of this issue. I am fine with either side being victorious in their struggle. Death penalty for all, death penalty for some, death penalty for none, makes no difference to me. I do not plan on committing capital murder in Texas anytime soon, and if someone kills my family I'd be fine with them either being executed or sent to prison. If I am put on trial for a crime I did not commit I would do goofy things in court to amuse myself and spend my time on death row writing as bizarre and long winded a final statement as I could possibly come up with.

[Ernest]

That's why an argument against the death penalty that includes "innocent people are being executed" is a short one; the supporters don't give a fuck, or just flippantly regret it. It doesn't make a difference, because to them, the death penalty works.

If you want to really argue against it, its immorality across the board needs to be focused on, the executions of guilty people, how hypocritical it is, and what a bureaucratic failure it is.

All this talk about innocents inadvertently gives the supporters ammo, because it's the one area where the both of you can look longingly off into the distance, and reinforce the underlying point of the death penalty- as a social construct for the guilty, those horrible people.

[SecondEdition]

I still haven't seen anything by Herzog yet. I'm going to try and change that soon.

[P.J. Craven]

I still haven't seen anything by Herzog yet. I'm going to try and change that soon.

My reaction at 2:03:

[same]

Finally got around to watching Into the Abyss last weekend. Not sure how I felt about it. I was expecting it to be a more intimate look into the life and minds of people on death row, but it really barely touched on that. It seemed more like an overview of this creepy, small Texas town full of degenerates. It felt voyeuristic and like Herzog was treating his subjects rather glibly. I found myself laughing much more than I thought I would. I laughed a lot at Cave of Forgotten Dreams but that movie still presented its subject with a certain gravitas that I felt was lacking in Into the Abyss.

Also, really made me not want to go back to Texas, ever.

[Marsupialized]

Recently caught 'Wings of Hope', never saw it before, excellent flick.

[Cranius]

I noticed that White Diamond is on youtube:

[P.J. Craven]

New one, Happy People, is already out in a few theaters.

Happy People: A Year in the Taiga