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Ultimate Thunderdome: Fugazi vs. The Jesus Lizard

Vote and debate.

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My allegiance lies with:

Fugazi
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50%
The Jesus Lizard
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Total votes : 426

Postby Marsupialized on Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:10 pm

Bradley wrote:Hey I never said they weren't a good band.

The reason I pointed out the marshall logo is because I'm curious as the motivations behind it.

And what I meant by other bands is that.. they got into this music because "punk rock is freedom" etc etc.. yet they condemn a lot of the elements of this scene that most likely attracted them to it in the first place. I just think that's kind of hypocritical.


Maybe he wants to make it clear he does not get money from Marshall for promoting their amps? Knowing what they were trying to get across with their art, I can see where he'd not want an advertisement for a giant company on stage with them while they played.

I still don't understand what you mean with that whole hypocritical thing.
I've heard Ian go on and on about how much he loves Hendrix and The Cramps and all kinds of other bands that have nothing in common with their politics.
You think it's hypocritical of them not to celebrate drinking and drugging in their own art because a lot of punk rockers were into drinking and drugging back in the day? Huh?
Last edited by Marsupialized on Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bernardo on Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:11 pm

Bradley wrote:And what I meant by other bands is that.. they got into this music because "punk rock is freedom" etc etc.. yet they condemn a lot of the elements of this scene that most likely attracted them to it in the first place. I just think that's kind of hypocritical.


Assuming this sentence is correct, which I think is not, there's a huge difference between being vocal on a negative opinion about something and supressing that same thing, maybe that difference is what some call freedom?
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Postby Bradley on Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:30 pm

Marsupialized wrote:
Bradley wrote:Hey I never said they weren't a good band.

The reason I pointed out the marshall logo is because I'm curious as the motivations behind it.

And what I meant by other bands is that.. they got into this music because "punk rock is freedom" etc etc.. yet they condemn a lot of the elements of this scene that most likely attracted them to it in the first place. I just think that's kind of hypocritical.


Maybe he wants to make it clear he does not get money from Marshall for promoting their amps? Knowing what they were trying to get across with their art, I can see where he'd not want an advertisement for a giant company on stage with them while they played.

I still don't understand what you mean with that whole hypocritical thing.
I've heard Ian go on and on about how much he loves Hendrix and The Cramps and all kinds of other bands that have nothing in common with their politics.
You think it's hypocritical of them not to celebrate drinking and drugging in their own art because a lot of punk rockers were into drinking and drugging back in the day? Huh?


I don't think they have to 'celebrate' things like getting loaded, but they specifically condemn things that I believe were elements of why punk rock was interesting to begin with.

Not so much "you get to punch whoever you want and sniff glue!" but they just took it in such a structured, rule-abiding direction in a lot of ways that I can't really see that as anything 'freeing.' On that dvd they spend so much time making people who don't "get it" foolish that I just felt like it was unwarranted and brought a lot of pretense to the table, which was kind of a bummer.
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Postby Bernardo on Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:38 pm

Bradley wrote:I don't think they have to 'celebrate' things like getting loaded, but they specifically condemn things that I believe were elements of why punk rock was interesting to begin with.


You still haven't mentioned any of these things they condemned, unless not wanting to endorse Marshall is a denial of the original punk ethos.
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Postby Marsupialized on Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:38 pm

Bradley wrote:I don't think they have to 'celebrate' things like getting loaded, but they specifically condemn things that I believe were elements of why punk rock was interesting to begin with.

Not so much "you get to punch whoever you want and sniff glue!" but they just took it in such a structured, rule-abiding direction in a lot of ways that I can't really see that as anything 'freeing.' On that dvd they spend so much time making people who don't "get it" foolish that I just felt like it was unwarranted and brought a lot of pretense to the table, which was kind of a bummer.


I dunno man, you have a weird way of seeing things I guess.
I watched that DVD and I they seemed like a pretty cool bunch of guys to me. Just because someone has strong ideas of how they want to live their life and present their art and uses strong words when talking about it doesn't mean they are 'preaching' to people telling them how they should live their life.
I see the band as an example of people doing things their own way, an alternate way, and succeeding wildly. Reading any more into it would be silly.
I don't agree with them 100 percent on their politics 100 percent of the time but that never made me feel like an outcast at their shows or made me angry or think less of them.
I just don't see them as being 'preachy' like a lot of people seem to, not one bit. I've never felt preached at by them one bit. They are expressing their ideas and opinions like every other band, nothing more.
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Postby Bradley on Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:41 pm

Bernardo wrote:
Bradley wrote:I don't think they have to 'celebrate' things like getting loaded, but they specifically condemn things that I believe were elements of why punk rock was interesting to begin with.


You still haven't mentioned any of these things they condemned, unless not wanting to endorse Marshall is a denial of the original punk ethos.


Dude, I'm not going to give you a bullet-pointed breakdown, sorry. I stated my opinion, you don't agree, and here we are.
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Postby Hibs1875 on Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:45 pm

Been listening to Fugazi again for the first time in years this week - "In on the Killtaker", "Red Medicine" and "Steady Diet" - all top notch and musically varied. Forgot how much I loved "Sweet and Low".

Jesus Lizard by a fucking mile.
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Postby Bradley on Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:48 pm

Marsupialized wrote:
I dunno man, you have a weird way of seeing things I guess.
I watched that DVD and I they seemed like a pretty cool bunch of guys to me. Just because someone has strong ideas of how they want to live their life and present their art and uses strong words when talking about it doesn't mean they are 'preaching' to people telling them how they should live their life.
I see the band as an example of people doing things their own way, an alternate way, and succeeding wildly. Reading any more into it would be silly.
I don't agree with them 100 percent on their politics 100 percent of the time but that never made me feel like an outcast at their shows or made me angry or think less of them.
I just don't see them as being 'preachy' like a lot of people seem to, not one bit. I've never felt preached at by them one bit. They are expressing their ideas and opinions like every other band, nothing more.


I think basically everything you said here is spot-on. Like I said, someone earlier in the thread said something about them being 'vaguely fascist' which I thought was interesting. Those things I mentioned, I felt, were consistent with what he was getting at (I hope).

Beyond that, yes they did things their own way and totally succeeded, which is rad, but I felt that, at times, it was at the sacrifice of other things. I suppose that's inevitable, but at the same time, it seems like a lot of people hold them in such high regard that they could do no wrong and no inconsistencies existed. This doesn't appear to be your particular platform though.
Last edited by Bradley on Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Marsupialized on Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:48 pm

Bradley wrote:
Bernardo wrote:
Bradley wrote:I don't think they have to 'celebrate' things like getting loaded, but they specifically condemn things that I believe were elements of why punk rock was interesting to begin with.


You still haven't mentioned any of these things they condemned, unless not wanting to endorse Marshall is a denial of the original punk ethos.


Dude, I'm not going to give you a bullet-pointed breakdown, sorry. I stated my opinion, you don't agree, and here we are.


I gotta say, you didn't make much sense with the whole argument. I still don't understand what you meant.
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Postby Bradley on Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:57 pm

Marsupialized wrote:
Bradley wrote:
Bernardo wrote:
Bradley wrote:I don't think they have to 'celebrate' things like getting loaded, but they specifically condemn things that I believe were elements of why punk rock was interesting to begin with.


You still haven't mentioned any of these things they condemned, unless not wanting to endorse Marshall is a denial of the original punk ethos.


Dude, I'm not going to give you a bullet-pointed breakdown, sorry. I stated my opinion, you don't agree, and here we are.


I gotta say, you didn't make much sense with the whole argument. I still don't understand what you meant.


Ok.. I remember a specific moment where ian pulls a kid up on stage, puts him in a headlock and says "i don't appreciate being spit on" and has the guy thrown out. Understandable, right?

Well, here's the thing. When that happened, I started wondering what ian was like when he was say, 15 or so, and went to punk shows, and why he went to punk shows. I'm not saying spitting on people is the epitome of punk ethos, nor getting stoned, or punching people, but where does it stop?

There's just a lot of small things that seemed to irk me a bit. I also thought about how extremely diy they are - and maybe you can shed some light on this - but did they pack up their own gear after their shows? That was something I was curious about, after they walked offstage at the end of one of their sets. If they did, awesome. If they had roadies.. what the fuck.
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Postby projectMalamute on Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:01 pm

Bradley wrote:
Marsupialized wrote:
Bradley wrote:
Bernardo wrote:
Bradley wrote:I don't think they have to 'celebrate' things like getting loaded, but they specifically condemn things that I believe were elements of why punk rock was interesting to begin with.


You still haven't mentioned any of these things they condemned, unless not wanting to endorse Marshall is a denial of the original punk ethos.


Dude, I'm not going to give you a bullet-pointed breakdown, sorry. I stated my opinion, you don't agree, and here we are.


I gotta say, you didn't make much sense with the whole argument. I still don't understand what you meant.


Ok.. I remember a specific moment where ian pulls a kid up on stage, puts him in a headlock and says "i don't appreciate being spit on" and has the guy thrown out. Understandable, right?

Well, here's the thing. When that happened, I started wondering what ian was like when he was say, 15 or so, and went to punk shows, and why he went to punk shows. I'm not saying spitting on people is the epitome of punk ethos, nor getting stoned, or punching people, but where does it stop?

There's just a lot of small things that seemed to irk me a bit. I also thought about how extremely diy they are - and maybe you can shed some light on this - but did they pack up their own gear after their shows? That was something I was curious about, after they walked offstage at the end of one of their sets. If they did, awesome. If they had roadies.. what the fuck.


I've heard a lot of stories that seem to indicate that the DIY thing was totally for real. Stuff like guys in opening bands being amazed that the dudes from Fugazi were helping them load stuff in and out.
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Postby projectMalamute on Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:04 pm

I also think the 'dancing' thing with Fugazi is a bit of a turn off for me. Not that their is anything wrong with it, and not that those guys didn't earn the right to run their shows in any way the saw fit. I just would prefer the atmosphere of a Jesus Lizard show if I wanted to see some punk rock.
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Postby Marsupialized on Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:07 pm

Yes they load their own gear, usually people standing around who worked the show offer to help a bit (so they can say 'dude, I helped Fugazi load out once' for the rest of their life) but they are out there lifting, yeah.
I'd kick the shit out of someone who spit on me too, I would have been WAY rougher on that punk ass kid. I don't care if punk rockers spit on each other back in the day, if anyone EVER spits on me while we are playing a show I will stomp them to death in front of everyone.
Plus he gives the person their 5 bucks back whenever he kicks them out, seems fair to me.
In fact I've seen him having a long one on one talk with some kid he was kicking out explaining why he was, after they talked for a few minutes they shook hands and the kid came back into the crowd and caused no more problems.
Look at it this way, their shows got pretty big toward the end....being alone at the helm of that huge swirling mass of craziness cannot be easy. Trying to keep calm and order when half the crowd are crazy teenagers and the other half are angry punk rockers....I dunno man, it had to be done and they figured out a way to do it most nights.
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Postby eliya on Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:37 pm

I think that Ian as a kid was a typical punk rocker, except for the drugs and alcohol stuff. He decided to be completely sober pretty much in the beginning. Anyhow, it seemed like he was the punching kind of guy and I remember seeing a vid on youtube where he jumps on someone and kicking the shit out of him. Anyhow, at some point he decided to stop with all this violent shit, which could have been a crucial part of the hardcore scene. I saw bits of this movie "american hardcore" and some of the people who were involved in the hardcore scene were being asked when did hardcore die. Ian said that for him it was 1984 while seeing a Minutemen show, someone punched his brother and Ian punched that guy back and then thought "What good is that? why do I/we need it?" etc'.
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Postby DasWiso on Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:44 pm

Fugazi. Definitely Fugazi. For me it's a bit of a romantic view of them, as i started listed to them when i was about 13. Also growing up around DC (Annapolis to be exact) - they always felt like the culture around here, the innovators - the instigators - the leaders. Been to a few shows and they always bring it.

So Fugazi (but i'll be goddamned if the Lizard aren't more 'punk-rock' as far as definitions go).
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Postby The Code is Almighty on Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:58 pm

Can someone recommend me a Fugazi song that is better than Dancing Naked Ladies or Monkey Trick? Seriously, I want to hear it.
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Postby Ernest on Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:07 pm

The Code is Almighty wrote:Can someone recommend me a Fugazi song that is better than Dancing Naked Ladies or Monkey Trick? Seriously, I want to hear it.


"Margin Walker" and "Caustic Acrostic".
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Postby Marsupialized on Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:20 pm

projectMalamute wrote:I just would prefer the atmosphere of a Jesus Lizard show if I wanted to see some punk rock.


Fugazi's show were much larger in scale, and they normally would play halls that didn't have shows every night of the week...roller rinks, parking lots, etc... It was pretty rare for Fugazi to play a regular ol club.
They set the shows up, took responsibility for everything that went down while they were there. It's part of it, yeah but I cannot blame them one bit for trying to keep things as civil as possible.
All it would have taken is one 14 year old getting his neck broken and they'd be looking at years of litigation and lawsuits, because they themselves were the promoters, bookers, etc...for the show. One situation like that could easily sink the entire band, Dischord and all the rest of the connected stuff they have going on.
Sure a wild ass Jesus Lizard show was amazing in a small club used to wild punk shows, full of adults used to getting wild in small punk clubs....but you can't have that craziness in the places Fugazi was playing to the crowds they were playing to or else you were risking some people getting REALLY hurt or the place getting seriously damaged.
Injuries and Damage they themselves would be responsible for trying to make right. Like I said, for them to be able to do things the way they wanted, 5 dollar tickets and whatnot, they had to take those risks. It only makes sense for them to be adamant about keeping the crowd surfing and fighting to a minimum.
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Postby honeyisfunny on Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:25 pm

I am 110% with Marsup here.

I never heard Fugazi talk about some ethical stance on not using a certain cab or being 'No FX' or whatever. I remember Guy talking to me about wah wah pedals and studio FX when I was a kid and loved his band.

TJL are fucking immense. Their best moments are incomparable. But I can't shake this idea that (maybe because they were ahead of their time) they're much more in line with the general feeling of people now and maybe Fugazi aren't. So people are saying TJL. But the question is not 'which band do you want to see now?', it's 'which band is best' and like Marsup said, I can think of moments with Fugazi where any veil of 'coolness' or self-conciousness I had when watching them just got pulled down for me and I think that's amazing.

Yes, I am drunk. The irony.
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Postby chet on Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:57 pm

Marsup' is speaking only truth here.

Apparently this one person went to one of either Minor Threat's shows, or an early Fugazi show, and ended up getting their neck broken and permanently paralyzed. They wanted to make sure something like that WOULD NEVER happen again, and of course its completely reasonably for a band to conduct itself however it wants at its own show. You don't like what they're saying/doing, then leave. Fugazi will probably even refund your money...
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