Beastie Boys

[scntfc]

fake chinese!

fake germans!

fake yacht rockers!

fake euro-wavers!

fake rock and rollers!

fake doo-woppers!


i for one am shocked and disgusted at this rampant blending of cultural influences. cultural poseurs, have they no shame?

[ImDADA]

Is there a whiter genre than Death Metal?

[ImDADA]

Serious question.

[SecondEdition]

Serious question.

Black metal, ironically enough.

[Ernest]

Indie rock. You do realize a number of white people in hip hop doesn't negate its creation by, and social significance for blacks, right?

This is turning to Deep.Butz level trolling.

[ImDADA]

Serious question.

Black metal, ironically enough.

I couldn't think of any black metal bands with black members (reappropriating the white mans sound).

[deep.BTUz]

You do realize a number of white people in hip hop doesn't negate its creation by, and social significance for blacks, right?
.

yeah Adam Yauch for one.

"In these times of melding cultures I give respect for what's been borrowed and lent, I know this music comes down from African descent..."

[numberthirty]

You do realize a number of white people in hip hop doesn't negate its creation by, and social significance for blacks, right?
.

yeah Adam Yauch for one.

"In these times of melding cultures I give respect for what's been borrowed and lent, I know this music comes down from African descent..."

When .BTUz has to reasonably explain why your position is all jacked up, that is some shit.

Quit digging, Ernest.

[Mark Van Deel]

three white kids who lack everything that made hip hop such an important genre of music- the anger, the vitality, the story telling, the bravado, the insistence on letting the world know the state of a minority.

That reads like a white rock critic's idea of what made hip hop important. The silliness and braggadocio of the Beasties was rooted in and authentic to old school, pre-critical respectability, 99% about partying and nonsense rap.

Do you want me to "blacken" my description or something? I don't see how your point counters anything I've said in that the Beastie Boys copied what they saw going on around them. I'm sorry if you thought I was unaware of the frivolity that was always present in hip hop.

Bringing this over from the other thread ...

The problem with your description isn't how you're saying it. It's that the things you think are important about the music are valued more by a certain strand of white critic than they are by most of the people who make and consume the music. It's a reductive view of what hip hop is and why it matters. You're calling the Beastie Boys out for making an inauthentic version of black music, lacking some essential substance, but that 'substance' wasn't a major part the music when the Beasties were coming up, and anyway most of the people who think it's essential to the music are white.

I don't see how you could say NWA, and Ice-T, of all groups and rappers, are more the placecards of hip hop than three disconnected white kids are from black experience, which birthed the genre.

Black culture birthed the genre, but this isn't blues we're talking about. The specific experience that rap came from was the experience of being a young dude and wanting to party and talk shit about how much cooler you were than the next dude. The Beasties weren't exactly disconnected from that. They didn't come from the culture that birthed the music, but they always went out of their way to show respect to it, and that's reflected in how they're pretty much universally respected within hip hop. The standard of authenticity that you're using to dismiss them mostly isn't held by people actually in the culture. The reaction to Yauch's death has been 'it's really sad that hip hop has lost this wonderful guy who loved hip hip and made some shit awesome hip hop music.' It's not like the group didn't give as much back to hip hop as they took from it. I mean, speaking of NWA, the Beasties were a big influence on NWA, for Christ's sake.

[numberthirty]

Ernest, are Body Count records a no-no in Ernest land?

[Ernest]

Bringing this over from the other thread ...

The problem with your description isn't how you're saying it. It's that the things you think are important about the music are valued more by a certain strand of white critic than they are by most of the people who make and consume the music. It's a reductive view of what hip hop is and why it matters.

So, aside from the things I've listed, that have been part and parcel of hip hop since nearly the beginning, what are the qualities that a white critic is fundamentally ignoring, or that are different for blacks within, and without hip hop? You're making it sound as if substance, emotionality, and anything not pure party music is in some way dismissed, conveniently ignoring how much of rap isn't centered on positivity, and frivolousness.

They didn't come from the culture that birthed the music, but they always went out of their way to show respect to it, and that's reflected in how they're pretty much universally respected within hip hop.

It's a shame then that aping ultimately comes down to what is seen as showing respect. If this is the case, then authenticity is a selective, and self serving argument, for any genre, because then anyone could deflect criticism of making corny filler by merely saying they're "paying respect". We're shit out of luck.

It's not like the group didn't give as much back to hip hop as they took from it.

I'm honestly straining to see what they gave back that they didn't "pay homage" to in the first place.

[Mark Van Deel]

So, aside from the things I've listed, that have been part and parcel of hip hop since nearly the beginning, what are the qualities that a white critic is fundamentally ignoring, or that are different for blacks within, and without hip hop? You're making it sound as if substance, emotionality, and anything not pure party music is in some way dismissed, conveniently ignoring how much of rap isn't centered on positivity, and frivolousness.

The thing is, the 'frivolousness' isn't the lesser part of the music. It's music that's meant for dancing to, smoking weed to, bumping in the car etc. You can have hip hop that isn't fueled by anger and has fuck all to do with updating white people on the state of the black community, and it can still be great hip hop. But if you took PE's music (for example), kept the message, but subtracted the part where it's shit-hot party music, it would suck as hip hop.

It's a shame then that aping ultimately comes down to what is seen as showing respect. If this is the case, then authenticity is a selective, and self serving argument, for any genre, because then anyone could deflect criticism of making corny filler by merely saying they're "paying respect". We're shit out of luck.

See, there's aping, and then there's spending many years as a participant in a musical community and making music which expands the boundaries of the genre while staying true to its roots, earning pretty much universal respect within that community along the way.

I'm honestly straining to see what they gave back that they didn't "pay homage" to in the first place.

There's a couple of influential and much loved records that didn't sound like anything else at the time (well, I guess Licensed to Ill sounds like Raising Hell, but Paul's Boutique was from another planet). There's the part where they massively expanded the audience for hip hop. There's also the part where they helped to break acts like PE by taking them out on tour etc.

[krs]

Rap Rock!

[Antero]

Aside from Paul's Boutique, which is a remarkable example of the sophistication of sample-based music, I do not fuck with the Beastie Boys at all. I do not like their music.

That said: any argument that revolves around denying them authenticity is one hundred percent abject bullshit. You can't write out their place in the history of the genre regardless of your opinion of their records. They were not aping or paying homage, they were active and engaged participants in the culture.

[numberthirty]

Aside from Paul's Boutique, which is a remarkable example of the sophistication of sample-based music, I do not fuck with the Beastie Boys at all. I do not like their music.

That said: any argument that revolves around denying them authenticity is one hundred percent abject bullshit. You can't write out their place in the history of the genre regardless of your opinion of their records. They were not aping or paying homage, they were active and engaged participants in the culture.

Just so I have this straight, Beasties bad/Lil' Wayne good?

[Antero]

Aside from Paul's Boutique, which is a remarkable example of the sophistication of sample-based music, I do not fuck with the Beastie Boys at all. I do not like their music.

That said: any argument that revolves around denying them authenticity is one hundred percent abject bullshit. You can't write out their place in the history of the genre regardless of your opinion of their records. They were not aping or paying homage, they were active and engaged participants in the culture.

Just so I have this straight, Beasties bad/Lil' Wayne good?

Paul's Boutique was great, and Weezy has dropped only a handful of decent tracks since 2009, but I'll bite. Sure. Yes. Lil' Wayne over Beasties. Over the course of his career, Lil' Wayne has made far more music that I enjoy than the Beastie Boys have. He made a bunch of great records in the golden era of Cash Money Records and hit an incredible run of creativity in the '06-'08 period that was stunning in its inventiveness and scale to anyone who actually is interested in rapping. For a short period of time he genuinely was the greatest rapper alive.

[numberthirty]

For a short period of time he genuinely was the greatest rapper alive.

Playing guitar like that, he damn well better be.

[Antero]

For a short period of time he genuinely was the greatest rapper alive.

Playing guitar like that, he damn well better be.

Yeeeeeeah, there's a reason I said "a short period of time." Things went downhill at a certain point. Syrup is bad for you, kids.

But good god, he had an epic run of it before that.

[numberthirty]

Aside from Paul's Boutique, which is a remarkable example of the sophistication of sample-based music, I do not fuck with the Beastie Boys at all. I do not like their music.

That might have something to do with Paul's Boutique being maybe seventy percent Dust Brothers.

[krs]

Just so I have this straight, Beasties bad/Lil' Wayne good?
Paul's Boutique was great, and Weezy has dropped only a handful of decent tracks since 2009, but I'll bite. Sure. Yes. Lil' Wayne over Beasties. Over the course of his career, Lil' Wayne has made far more music that I enjoy than the Beastie Boys have. He made a bunch of great records in the golden era of Cash Money Records and hit an incredible run of creativity in the '06-'08 period that was stunning in its inventiveness and scale to anyone who actually is interested in rapping. For a short period of time he genuinely was the greatest rapper alive.

I was going to stop reading at Cash Money Records, but I pressed on.

WOW. Just WOW.