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Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Anthony Flack on Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:24 pm

kokorodoko wrote:Where does the fear of causing offense come from though?


Well, look at this thread, you know? Speaking for myself I'm not really in the mood for getting foed by any more FMs who I would otherwise be getting along fine with.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Riff Magnum on Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:27 pm

Twilight Sparkle wrote:
Riff Magnum wrote:I'm worried that even asking the question "what pronoun do I use?" would be deemed insulting by most people.


Nope

I'd be insulted if someone asked me that.


Why?

Dunno why i said this honestly. Maybe getting a little testy at FM's who are cussing and insulting other people and any contradictory viewpoint, all the while claiming to be so accepting and open minded towards others. I guess I wouldn't be insulted. I'd be confused for a moment then move along. :oops: I just worry that all social interaction is heading towards this sort of formal nature(unless we're online which anything goes, right?). Everyones a lawyer, everyone constantly on the brink of being offended by something.
If some people in this thread think freedom of speech is overrated, I guess I think identity is overrated. I know i spent way too much time as an adolescent worrying about it. Who honestly cares what YOU THINK YOU ARE? It's a feeling you have and i think that should be respected, but I don't think it's the trump card of all social interaction. I don't think it's how our dominance hierarchy should be arranged. I don't think we should just keep subdividing into smaller and smaller in groups, while the out groups get bigger and bigger. That sort of trend scares me, but I'm hoping it's just the pendulum swinging back out and it will eventually find equilibrium in the middle. The far left and far right need to chill.
Last edited by Riff Magnum on Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Riff Magnum on Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:29 pm

Anthony Flack wrote:
kokorodoko wrote:Where does the fear of causing offense come from though?


Well, look at this thread, you know? Speaking for myself I'm not really in the mood for getting foed by any more FMs who I would otherwise be getting along fine with.



Yayyyy!! We CAN agree!!
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Madman Munt on Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:35 pm

Anthony Flack wrote:Speaking for myself I'm not really in the mood for getting foed by any more FMs who I would otherwise be getting along fine with.


One thing I like (or used to like) about this place is that I had the sense that you'd get the straight shit from people, fresh from their brain, ugly stuff and all. I hope no-one feels like they have to hold back if they are being sincere. Bad jokes always welcome, too.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby seanurban on Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:59 pm

blackmarket wrote:
Madman Munt wrote:
blackmarket wrote:You don't get to decide how people choose to be addressed.


True, but I do get to decide how I address them. Usually, the two will coincide.

However, ain't no way I'm calling the The Queen "Her Royal Highness". Mrs T. Queen, perhaps.

I wonder if I'd call Sir Ben Kingsley (Clown Union), "Sir"? I heard he likes to be called it.

You get to decide how you address assholes. That is a different conversation, entirely.

Good. That's your choice!
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Twilight Sparkle on Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:15 pm

Madman Munt wrote:I'm sure at one time you could be beheaded for it!

It was just an extreme example of a situation when you might want to refuse to address someone in the way they want or expect.


No doubt, but then we're crumpling up two ends of the social hierarchy into one big ball of generic obedience, and things should be reacted to within their own context. I get the joke, but I'll go ahead and respond to it and say that example isn't relevant to pronoun issues, other than Twitter-beheadings. I mean on that, I really feel it's the climate on social media that is behind most anyone's worry they are going to commit some sort of gender crime on trans folk. Generally, if you refer to people the way you interpret their presentation, be open to being corrected, possibly use 'they' if you're dubious, you will be fine. These conversations, tough online, it gets very factional.

To me it's people like Peterson, who is a teacher, trying to "stand up" and make a big issue about it that there is a cause for legislation like this in the first place, so people can remain un-humiliated by authority figures. The growing pains of language can be awkward, laws imperfect, but lets keep in sight what we're moving towards, which is inclusion and acceptance in a world where that doesn't happen when left to its own devices. Though as what the kids today call non-binary, worrying about other people worrying about my pronouns can be just as weird a blockade to being comfy with one another as having to deal with someone who is "ignorant" of these concerns, and I'm sympathetic to people who feel like they're suddenly being forced to learn a secret club's cryptic code-language, especially when people who are very loud and Professionally Offended claim to speak for an entire category of being, that is extremely varied and subjective, are attempting to establish various rules. However in the situation of two people fumbling over pronouns when they meet, maybe it's better sometimes to have a situation where two people are uncomfortable, and on the same level, than one person steamrolling over the personal boundaries of another. If we're talking about the far-left, I think the dream should be the erasure of hierarchies, and of course, that's about the farthest thing from a neat-n-tidy overnight fix.

Riff Magnum wrote:I don't think it's the trump card of all social interaction... I don't think we should just keep subdividing into smaller and smaller in groups


I most definitely don't think identity is overrated, but no, classless identity politics isn't the answer, and neither is sequestering yourself into a corner where you only want to play with people "like you". The truth is, tho, that most people are just plain not aware of any of these issues of identity (which, fine), and most people who are, that are vocal about having a problem with it, are purposely acting superior and exclusionary. If people are trying to take social power in conversations over identity, it's not fair and correct, but at the same time, it's not in response to nothing.

Let's also not pretend that, in terms of victimhood, EVERYONE is very quick to think they, personally, are being attacked, when say, people sling things at public figures like Jordan.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Anthony Flack on Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:03 pm

Riff Magnum wrote:Yayyyy!! We CAN agree!!
this is why i stay in the tech room.


Uh yeah except I get into fights in the tech room.

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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby seanurban on Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:02 am

Anthony Flack wrote:
kokorodoko wrote:Where does the fear of causing offense come from though?


Well, look at this thread, you know? Speaking for myself I'm not really in the mood for getting foed by any more FMs who I would otherwise be getting along fine with.

Well, they should foe me too because they're fucking cowards who would rather shut down discussions than hear an honest difference of opinion.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Superking on Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:30 am

Madman Munt wrote: I could happily live in a world where everyone on the right fully took on board his spiels.


Maybe my head is trapped in the Overton Window, but I'm down with this.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Anthony Flack on Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:51 am

Even if nobody foes anybody things can still turn pretty sour. I think a public forum can act like an amplifier and it's easy for a feedback loop to develop whereby everybody keeps turning the volume up and up on each other.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby blackmarket on Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:41 am

Riff Magnum wrote:
Twilight Sparkle wrote:
Riff Magnum wrote:I'm worried that even asking the question "what pronoun do I use?" would be deemed insulting by most people.


Nope

I'd be insulted if someone asked me that.


Why?

Dunno why i said this honestly. Maybe getting a little testy at FM's who are cussing and insulting other people and any contradictory viewpoint, all the while claiming to be so accepting and open minded towards others. I guess I wouldn't be insulted. I'd be confused for a moment then move along. :oops:


Are you new? I have never found the community here particularly accepting of all points of view. Where transphobia is concerned, EA is the better for it. Don't expect that shit to pass here. I am not sure where you got the idea of such accpetance from. Because it skews Left? Ha, ha. I don't think you understand what that means.

I just worry that all social interaction is heading towards this sort of formal nature(unless we're online which anything goes, right?). Everyones a lawyer, everyone constantly on the brink of being offended by something.
If some people in this thread think freedom of speech is overrated, I guess I think identity is overrated. I know i spent way too much time as an adolescent worrying about it. Who honestly cares what YOU THINK YOU ARE? It's a feeling you have and i think that should be respected, but I don't think it's the trump card of all social interaction. I don't think it's how our dominance hierarchy should be arranged. I don't think we should just keep subdividing into smaller and smaller in groups, while the out groups get bigger and bigger. That sort of trend scares me, but I'm hoping it's just the pendulum swinging back out and it will eventually find equilibrium in the middle. The far left and far right need to chill.


Who honestly cares what YOU THINK YOU ARE? That is pretty fucking ignorant.

The world (fucking) cares. We are still debating bathroom usage, FFS. Are you really that out of touch with the world around you, or just willfully ignorant of it?

The paranoid, Reuben-esque NWO fantasy you have crafted in your mind is largely unfounded. If you ever took the time to step out of the cis White male bubble of privileged you exist in, and engaged with the individuals in the trans community, it would be apparent. The gross commentary above makes it pretty obvious that you haven't.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby blackmarket on Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:55 am

Twilight Sparkle wrote:
Riff Magnum wrote:I don't think it's the trump card of all social interaction... I don't think we should just keep subdividing into smaller and smaller in groups


I most definitely don't think identity is overrated, but no, classless identity politics isn't the answer, and neither is sequestering yourself into a corner where you only want to play with people "like you". The truth is, tho, that most people are just plain not aware of any of these issues of identity (which, fine), and most people who are, that are vocal about having a problem with it, are purposely acting superior and exclusionary. If people are trying to take social power in conversations over identity, it's not fair and correct, but at the same time, it's not in response to nothing.


In my experience, untintentional misgendering is about as offensive as misspelling a person's name. Trans/non-binary folk can be some of the most forgiving people on the planet. They kind of have to be. It's a matter of survival. Opponents like Riff and Jordan expect the world to continue spinning around them, which is the unreasonable position.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Riff Magnum on Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:24 pm

I'm working three jobs to support two kids by myself. See, there's my identity. Who fucking cares, right? "See how i feel as a single dad.....As I single parent.....See I'm coming from a place of...." How long can that go on before you totally tune out? After all my white male privilege will allow me to simply walk between the raindrops. Don't worry, I got this.
It's what I do that matters to the world, not how I see myself. How i see myself is probably just an ever shifting illusion in the first place.
I'll honestly use whatever word you or anyone else want me to use to describe them. I really honestly don't give two fucks about that. After all they're just made up words someone decided to make up.
Still crap though.
Jordan Peterson still not crap though.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby blackmarket on Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:40 pm

Riff Magnum wrote:I'm working three jobs to support two kids by myself. See, there's my identity. Who fucking cares, right?


Those are related to things you did. This is, in many ways, a life you chose for yourself. It's not what you are, dumbfuck. Big difference.

Equivalence. Is someone gonna deny your humanity? Is anyone going to try to kill you for being a single father?
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Riff Magnum on Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:49 pm

ok, i thought we were talking about identity, which admittedly is confusing because it's so subjective. Now we're talking about "what we are" which totally objective and completely out of our hands, right? So that means all I am in this world is a white male who hasn't been laid in three years and you're a dramatic fucking child.
You've managed to complicate and simplify the human experience all at the same time. You win douchebag. Congrats. I'm sure you'll be happy someday for a few seconds.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby sulfur)addict on Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 pm

There's no reason to talk down on Riff Magnum like that, my dude. I don't think he's showing up to marches or intentionally misgendering people, I think he's just entertaining the notions of some Canadian jerkoff as if they're deep instead of basic.

Riff siding with a snake oil salesmen isn't too surprising - Riff is obviously working thru some stuff where he thinks people's identities are somehow tied into all of their social interactions (I assure you! My trans* friends go bowling and like Iron Maiden, too! We don't sit around correcting each other all day, like lawyers or boring assholes)

And besides, snake oil dudes have to charm somebody, that's the whole point.

But you're getting hostile when dude is clearly struggling with something.


I digress. Jordan Peterson probably gets real snappy any time someone corrects him about anything, and he uses his degree to double down on a bullshit thesis about society. You wouldn't accept that from a dude with a master's in marketing, so don't take it from some Canadian chooch, either.

CRAP.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Riff Magnum on Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:03 pm

sulfur)addict wrote:There's no reason to talk down on Riff Magnum like that, my dude. I don't think he's showing up to marches or intentionally misgendering people, I think he's just entertaining the notions of some Canadian jerkoff as if they're deep instead of basic.

Riff siding with a snake oil salesmen isn't too surprising - Riff is obviously working thru some stuff where he thinks people's identities are somehow tied into all of their social interactions (I assure you! My trans* friends go bowling and like Iron Maiden, too! We don't sit around correcting each other all day, like lawyers or boring assholes)

And besides, snake oil dudes have to charm somebody, that's the whole point.

But you're getting hostile when dude is clearly struggling with something.


I digress. Jordan Peterson probably gets real snappy any time someone corrects him about anything, and he uses his degree to double down on a bullshit thesis about society. You wouldn't accept that from a dude with a master's in marketing, so don't take it from some Canadian chooch, either.

CRAP.


no, i don't think peoples identities are tied into all of their social interaction, but that is kinda how it's portrayed much of the time, no? Maybe it's just social media and threads like this that make it seem that way, I dunno.
I don't know any trans people. Shame on me. Who the fuck has time to even meet new people?

For what it's worth, I actually agree with a lot of what's being said.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Mason on Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:40 pm

Riff Magnum wrote:I don't know any trans people.


Then you picked a real dumbass YouTube hobby. Spend more time with your kids or something.

We all read up on issues that don't super-directly touch our lives, but we don't all spend time misunderstanding those issues and turning them into pet hates. (Leaving aside the part where you surely do know some trans people, whether they're out to you or not.)

I hate guns and will never own one, so I should make sure to spend free time hanging out on NRA Twitter and getting upset about legislation I haven't researched.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby ooop on Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:51 pm

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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Madman Munt on Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:02 pm

blackmarket wrote:Those are related to things you did. This is, in many ways, a life you chose for yourself. It's not what you are, dumbfuck. Big difference.


So when you say it's what you are, you are talking about an innate, born-this-way, biological-type identity?
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