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Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Riff Magnum on Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:03 pm

Mason wrote:
Riff Magnum wrote:I don't know any trans people.


Then you picked a real dumbass YouTube hobby. Spend more time with your kids or something.

We all read up on issues that don't super-directly touch our lives, but we don't all spend time misunderstanding those issues and turning them into pet hates. (Leaving aside the part where you surely do know some trans people, whether they're out to you or not.)

I hate guns and will never own one, so I should make sure to spend free time hanging out on NRA Twitter and getting upset about legislation I haven't researched.



I'm a musician. I hang here cuz there's cool shit to learn about music and gear and art and stuff. Not so much when it comes to shit like this.
I initially stood up for Jordan Peterson cuz I like a lot of his lectures on evolutionary psychology. It wasn't my intention to get into a gender war.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Mason on Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:04 pm

You're the one getting upset about C-16 on your own time, dogg.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Riff Magnum on Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:12 pm

Mason wrote:You're the one getting upset about C-16 on your own time, dogg.
"I'm here to talk music and gear, not bizarrely volunteer that I think trans people are too preoccupied with their identity. Why do you keep making me do that."



Yeah, I think it's called narcissism
Ok bro, from now on I'll stay in the shallow end of the pool, lest I get picked on by the teenagers who got it all figured out.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby sulfur)addict on Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:15 pm

Riff Magnum wrote:Maybe it's just social media and threads like this that make it seem that way, I dunno.
I don't know any trans people. Shame on me. Who the fuck has time to even meet new people?


I think you already know.

And you're exactly the kind of "ordinary" guy Jordan Peterson needs to keep propagating bullshit that also has half-baked e-nazis excited to cite a book they've never read from a thinker who isn't thinking.

No offense to you.

I get on-edge whenever people's idea of society seems, idk, anti-social. I have to watch groups of dogs all day at my job, I spray bottle them whenever they show a sign of aggression. Same logic should be applied towards humans.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Riff Magnum on Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:33 pm

sulfur)addict wrote:
Riff Magnum wrote:Maybe it's just social media and threads like this that make it seem that way, I dunno.
I don't know any trans people. Shame on me. Who the fuck has time to even meet new people?


I think you already know.

And you're exactly the kind of "ordinary" guy Jordan Peterson needs to keep propagating bullshit that also has half-baked e-nazis excited to cite a book they've never read from a thinker who isn't thinking.

No offense to you.

I get on-edge whenever people's idea of society seems, idk, anti-social. I have to watch groups of dogs all day at my job, I spray bottle them whenever they show a sign of aggression. Same logic should be applied towards humans.


Well, I dunno if i'm anti-social by choice but i've always been kinda shy. I'm no misanthrope. I'm glad you guys know trans people. I don't and I don't think it means you're better, smarter, more open minded than I am or anything. It simply means you're probably younger, more outgoing and maybe have more time on your hands. (not an insult) I used to drink and smoke pot when our band was gigging a ton and as a result I knew and hung out with people of all stripes. Weed really does bring people together. Then puts them to sleep.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby sulfur)addict on Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:40 pm

The anti-social was meant towards Peterson.

I'm sure you're swell, but you're advocating for an asshole who thinks he understands my friends better than they understand themselves.

CRAP
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Riff Magnum on Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:03 pm

sulfur)addict wrote:The anti-social was meant towards Peterson.

I'm sure you're swell, but you're advocating for an asshole who thinks he understands my friends better than they understand themselves.

CRAP


Except I've never thought that was the issue and even though I don't know JP personally, I don't think his issue is with gender or sex or peoples personal choices either but with the fact that politicians are exploiting identity politics to further their own agenda. Now is where you say that's just paranoia and you're hiding behind free speech. And that's when I say free speech is without a doubt the most important thing we have as a democratic society and it must be protected and not fucked with willy nilly. And by the way, are only left wingers allowed to be paranoid about stuff? The eminent fascist ascendancy that's just around the corner, but never really comes.....or does it.....or maybe it's already here?
besides c-16, there's this whole compelled speech thing going on with the Ontario Law Society and the recent Lindsey Shepherd debacle at Wilfrid Laurier University. Weird shit if you ask me.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby sulfur)addict on Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:40 pm

Jesus.

Law societies and universities.

Yeah, no, I'm okay with those institutions bowing down to a freedom of expression. And the free speech you're concerned about is a reactionary instinct against that freedom of expression.

"Why can't I call Jews 'unpersons' at college? My freedom is being limited here."

I know, I know, jump to the Holocaust parallel, but you have to understand that the freedom to dehumanize people in word is the first step in that process.

If your freedom of speech is centered around being able to fuck up someone else's identity - intent aside - then you oughta work on yourself. Everyone's worried about their honest mistakes being taken to vulgar extremes, I understand, but your lack of concern for the vulgar extremes that LGBT face far more frequently is, honestly, offensive.

Universities should be one of the few safe havens out there.

Instead we're treated to a Grade-A dumbfuck with a self-help book about overcoming the "chaos" around you and a bone-headed theory about Marxism. In a country with socialized healthcare. On a university payroll, no less!

If you can't see he's selling you poison, then I'm sorry, but you're a well-meaning pawn in a far more sinister game.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Anthony Flack on Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:17 pm



So that's why I see him doing photoshoots with plastic lobsters. Man, nuts to that zero-sum philosophy. Government is not a bird and people are not lobsters.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Riff Magnum on Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:08 pm

sulfur)addict wrote:Jesus.

Law societies and universities.

Yeah, no, I'm okay with those institutions bowing down to a freedom of expression. And the free speech you're concerned about is a reactionary instinct against that freedom of expression.

"Why can't I call Jews 'unpersons' at college? My freedom is being limited here."

I know, I know, jump to the Holocaust parallel, but you have to understand that the freedom to dehumanize people in word is the first step in that process.

If your freedom of speech is centered around being able to fuck up someone else's identity - intent aside - then you oughta work on yourself. Everyone's worried about their honest mistakes being taken to vulgar extremes, I understand, but your lack of concern for the vulgar extremes that LGBT face far more frequently is, honestly, offensive.

Universities should be one of the few safe havens out there.

Instead we're treated to a Grade-A dumbfuck with a self-help book about overcoming the "chaos" around you and a bone-headed theory about Marxism. In a country with socialized healthcare. On a university payroll, no less!

If you can't see he's selling you poison, then I'm sorry, but you're a well-meaning pawn in a far more sinister game.



Why do universities have to be some ultimate comfort zone? Almost seems like the opposite should be true. Doesn't real personal growth, learning and maturation come from being confronted with the absolute worst life has to offer and figuring out how to navigate that bullshit. Life is totally about finding the proper balance between order and chaos. I think peterson is pretty close to the mark on that point.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby llllllllllllllllllllllll on Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:38 pm

Riff Magnum wrote:politicians are exploiting identity politics to further their own agenda.


Alt-right figureheads like Peterson, Cernovich and Spencer and the like are very much doing the same thing,
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Mason on Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:42 pm

Riff Magnum wrote:Doesn't real personal growth, learning and maturation come from being confronted with the absolute worst life has to offer and figuring out how to navigate that bullshit.


Sounds like a good justification for steeling yourself and learning to navigate this world of identity politics you've been confronted with.

Which is 10x or 100 000x less difficult than enduring actual bigotry or anything you're saying people from vulnerable populations ought to deal with.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby sulfur)addict on Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:53 pm

Riff Magnum wrote:Why do universities have to be some ultimate comfort zone? Almost seems like the opposite should be true. Doesn't real personal growth, learning and maturation come from being confronted with the absolute worst life has to offer and figuring out how to navigate that bullshit. Life is totally about finding the proper balance between order and chaos. I think peterson is pretty close to the mark on that point.


Very little respect for any of this, but assuming you're 100% serious, I'll try.

Universities are already chaotic driven, full of young people trying to figure out what they're supposed to do with their lives, many of whom are on their own for the first time, many still going through a heinous molting stage that hits us in our late teens. Add drinking culture, add petty bullshit, add rape stats, just add a thousand young people anywhere and tell me it isn't chaos.

Add in the dysphoria of feeling uncomfortable in your own body, with your assigned gender . . . what could possibly be more chaotic than that?

Your "confrontational" outlook is at best, a cynical psychology being applied to a public space, and at worst downright sociopathic. Either way, I consider it anti-social.

Universities are public, social spaces. Students pay a lot of money to go to them. Neither thing should be associated with a chooch telling you that your lifestyle is unacceptable and you aren't who you say you are. We have families to do that.

Chaos and order are abstract ideas, often two sides of the same coin. One person's chaos is another's order - think of the police force in a white neighborhood. Order, right? Now imagine a police force in a minority neighborhood. Chaos.

A want for chaos is probably just wanting to be the one who inflicts it. Which would put you in control. See? If you get to question a trans* person's identity, you have control over them. Ditto if they belittle you for your family/situation.

I don't take chances with a dog flashing his teeth in the play-yard, and I don't assume the other dog will learn something from the confrontation if I let it happen. I guess, in this simile, I'm the state/universities trying to maintain the pack.

Really, that whole post reads like some bad misreading of Nietzche. Which is what Peterson and the alt-right and the Nazis of yore all have in common, this ridiculous idea that their thin egos and obsession with "winning" the social experiment is somehow the Ubermensch instead of the mindset of a feeble dog who can't get seem to get along.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby givemenoughrope on Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:54 pm

Maybe this is trite af but shouldn't people WANT to be nice and respect each other? If someone wants to be referred to in a certain way I have no problem doing that. If there are statues or flags that make certain groups of people feel like garbage then just take them the fuck down. Enough of this "but I have the right to" garbage. Waste of time. We shouldn't have to legislate this stuff. It's easy. 1st graders can do it.

This guy could be right 100% on every point (I wouldn't know) but he doesn't really mention this. Granted I've watched maybe three videos and couldn't bother with any more.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby seanurban on Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:43 am

He's a Darwinist and a Canadian. He's too nice. Probably doesn't even drink.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Antero on Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:57 am

Riff Magnum wrote:Why do universities have to be some ultimate comfort zone? Almost seems like the opposite should be true.

I agree completely, which is why universities ought to strive to undo the blinders of white supremacy, patriarchy, and cis/heteronormativity. There's nothing of educational value to be gained in an environment where the majority are free to behave in an ignorant and unthinking manner just because they can't be arsed to learn about new things that make them feel uncomfortable.

or was that not what you meant.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby seanurban on Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:02 am

But that's not what they're doing. They just say they are and then they wonder why students are uprising at Evergreen, formerly the most tolerant college in the world.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Madman Munt on Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:24 am

Anthony Flack wrote:


So that's why I see him doing photoshoots with plastic lobsters. Man, nuts to that zero-sum philosophy. Government is not a bird and people are not lobsters.


Oh shit. I though I was going to get out of reading this damn book!

In Confessions of Philosopher* by Bryan Magee there is a constant theme of the ideas of philosophers (not that I would call JP one, but he does seem to have a definite philosophy) being passed down in the culture without anyone reading the original texts. When he does go back to the original texts he finds out that not only were the ideas completely different, often they were the exact opposite of the general perception.

In that spirit I'm going read this and get back to you all. I have the impression I'll hate it, but I'm going to try to keep an open mind. I just checked and my local libraries have STACKS of it; like Harry Potter, man.

Antero wrote:
Riff Magnum wrote:Why do universities have to be some ultimate comfort zone? Almost seems like the opposite should be true.

I agree completely, which is why universities ought to strive to undo the blinders of white supremacy, patriarchy, and cis/heteronormativity. There's nothing of educational value to be gained in an environment where the majority are free to behave in an ignorant and unthinking manner just because they can't be arsed to learn about new things that make them feel uncomfortable.

or was that not what you meant.


How do you feel about the Wilfred Laurier University/Lindsay Shepherd thing? To me it seems so insane that I can hardly talk about it. I don't think that kind of stuff helps your stated cause.

My approach the comfort question would be that they should be no more uncomfortable than necessary/as comfortable as possible while still remaining committed to the pursuit of open discussion and truth. I mean, the seats should be hard enough for good posture but soft enough that you bum doesn't get numb.

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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Riff Magnum on Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:46 am

I think the democrats are gonna lose this next election to Trump if they don't get all the identity politics sorted out quick, and that will be a shame. Bad for the country; bad for the world. Well meaning liberals (pro choice, pro gay marriage, pro social welfare) do not understand what the fuck is going on. Yes, it's up to them to educate themselves, but it's also up to people who understand (or think they do at least) to try to explain these gender issues without all the virtue signaling and smarm.
People hear "There is no difference biologically between men and women." That throws them for a loop for quite a while then they hear "We need 72 new words to describe the differences between genders." Wait....i thought.....huh? Oh yeah and "the canadian government is mandating the use of these words" Wait.....what? I gotta use words I don't understand to describe something no one can seem to agree upon? This totally gonna divide the democratic party. People are already leaving the republican party at an astonishing rate, so it seems inevitable that a centrist candidate/party has a great shot at winning.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby OrthodoxEaster on Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:14 am

Read an interview w/Peterson and he came off like a self-help guru chump for sad white men living in daddy's basement.

That said, a sliver of his argument rings true. But it's wrapped up in so much bullshit and stated wrongheadedly and from a shitty position.

For what it's worth, I have one trans friend and one trans former coworker. Outside of academia, activists, and social media, it would seem that most trans people basically want to be treated like regular people. Don't walk on eggshells, don't worry too much, and don't make a huge, infantilizing deal of it. Just be decent. Not nervous or hateful or too eager to be some kind of "ally."

I leave my opinions to drag icon Lady Bunny. There was a kind of sauciness to the East Village in NYC in the '80s and '90s but it was also a bastion of tolerance. She came out of the scene that revolved around the Pyramid Club and Wigstock. Straight, gay, black, Latino, white, Jewish, atheist, Christian, trans, drag... everybody basically getting along but not feeling so uncomfortable as to be beyond some friendly teasing. Not giving too much of a shit about any proto-identity politics and instead focusing on being a decent neighbor and human being.

Lady Bunny wrote:Cis-gender is a word which puzzles me because it seems to come from transgender therapy. It refers to someone who is not trans. In other words, a cisgender woman is a woman. A woman like my mom and sis, who were born women and have no desire to transition into anything. Trans issues may be trendy right now, but if trans people are roughly .3% of the population, where do they get off creating a word for 99.7% of the rest of us? That’s like asking “Would you like that omelette with egg whites or with cis-eggs?” or “Do you prefer Diet Coke or cis-Coke?” We don’t need a word to describe the main thing which isn’t the variation.

Sometimes, militant trans activists will abbreviate cisgender and say things like “Die, cis scum!” Great! You are really building allies in your quest for equal rights by creating a slur for 99% of the rest of humanity. Trans people can have a very tough time on their journeys and they do experience a lot of ignorance, prejudice, violence, or even murder. I’m not trying to belittle their struggle. But I will gladly belittle Caitlyn Jenner, who gay groups held up briefly as a trans role model. Bitch, please! I support anyone’s right to transition into anything. But that fool needs to transition out of the Republican party which seeks to destroy the rights of the LGBT community which she’s trying to join. Caitlyn actually confused many transsexual friends of mine who smelled a publicity stunt and fakery. And when Glamour magazine named her Woman of The Year…she hasn’t even been a woman for a year!

Look, I have no problem with changing lingo, just don’t expect that everyone else is forced to play your word games because they mean something to you. As someone who’s worn women’s clothes to work for 30 years, I’m not going to frown on anyone for playing with gender. But what is a zir? I’ve never even met one and I’m 54! And is “gender fluid” when I’m in drag and I have diarrhea? Even I can’t keep up with all of these terms myself. So it’s time to mock them. And I don’t embrace non-PC language in a way that Trump does: to justify racism. I just want to laugh.

“Trans” is a prefix for both transvestite, which is what drag queens are, and transsexual. Because I juggle a lot of new sexual identity terms in this show and I’m essentially a clown, I wanted the title to inform everyone upfront that if you’re too precious to even handle a title which indicates that a show pokes fun at PC culture, skip this performance. You’re probably no fun. Speaking of precious, I sometimes bill myself as The White Precious in a reference to the movie Precious, since I’m fat, retarded, and will probably get AIDS.

I joke that “I tried Syrian refugee cock, but that it just kept coming.” One night, a lady came up after the show and told me “I’m from Syria.” I thought “Oh, shit. Here comes the lecture.” Instead, she told me, “We have a saying in my country: ‘The best humor comes from the worst tragedies.’” Then she hugged me. Humor can actually defuse terrible situations if we would get off our high horses for long enough to enjoy it like we used to. Remember the brilliant character Pat from SNL by Julia Sweeney? “Pat” was of such indeterminate gender that no one who met her knew how to address her and “it” was kind of creepy. The whole thing was hilarious, but you couldn’t air those skits today without a firestorm of criticism branding it transphobic. The same thing with In Living Color’s queeny movie reviewers who gave films “three snaps up.” Were they playing on gay stereotypes? Absolutely! And it made us howl, gay and straight alike. I just think that if you treat people with respect, labels become a lot less important. So if you get someone’s pronoun of choice wrong, it’s not really a big deal because you’ve introduced yourself to them respectfully. You just got it wrong once and we’re all learning.

Speaking of learning, I also touch on what is going on with PC college campuses. At one college, they claim that it’s insensitive to ask someone where they are from. Huh? That’s making conversation, you idiots! Can I still ask someone, “How are you?” without transferring my cisgender white male privilege onto them because I’m more likely to be doing more okay than they are? And don’t never ask “What’s up?” to someone with Down’s Syndrome. It’s just gotten so out of control that well-meaning people don’t know how to approach concepts like heteronormative. So our Oppression Olympics and victim culture actually stifle discussion, and therefore understanding. And if you honestly want to stop hearing fat-shaming, then quit eating so much. You’ll never hear it again.


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