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Viking: Burzum

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Burzum

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Re: Viking: Burzum

Postby Kate Rev on Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:42 pm

RSMurphy wrote:I finally listened to Filosofem last year and concur that it's pretty mindblowing; then I never listened to it again. There is lots of mindblowing music for me to listen to without having to constantly be reminded of what an awful and terrible human being the artist is.

Fuck Burzum and fuck the rationalizations for supporting him.


Why is GG Allin ok to give a pass to but not Burzum? Look there's plenty of horrible people who make beautiful music. You shouldn't have to want to be friends with a person to dig the art they create. The reason it is art and not craft is that the artist drops out of the equation and it can be appreciated without approving of the artist as a person.
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Re: Viking: Burzum

Postby RSMurphy on Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:13 pm

Kate Revitte wrote:Why is GG Allin ok to give a pass to but not Burzum?


It's not. I've never given him a pass. If memory serves I gave him a what for in his documentary thread. Fuck GG Allin. Where did that come from???

Look there's plenty of horrible people who make beautiful music. You shouldn't have to want to be friends with a person to dig the art they create. The reason it is art and not craft is that the artist drops out of the equation and it can be appreciated without approving of the artist as a person.


Eh, I don't buy it and have no problems denying myself the experience of their art if I despise them as much as a human can despise another human. I don't hang out with muderers, racists, and homophobes, so why should I support them? Like I posted earlier, there are far too many people making incredibly uneasy music that don't require me to check my scruples at the door. I'm not saying that those who do buy his merch/support do this thing, but why even bother with the hassle of wrestling with the question?

I still love your burzum-listenin-bum to bits. Don't get it, but I don't think much about it either.
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Re: Viking: Burzum

Postby The MayorofRockNRoll on Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:31 pm

Kate Revitte wrote:The reason it is art and not craft is that the artist drops out of the equation and it can be appreciated without approving of the artist as a person.


Hmmm... craft is actually the labor involved in creating the art, and so that's more intimately tied to the person making it, but less tied to their personalities, proclivities, etc.

Yeah, I'm with you though. If I gave a fuck about the personalities involved with the creation of most things anymore, I'd be denying myself a lot. Likewise, I'd be supporting a bunch of bullshit because the people involved were nice and/or conscientious or this or that or the other thing.
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Re: Viking: Burzum

Postby RSMurphy on Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:39 pm

The MayorofRockNRoll wrote:If I gave a fuck about the personalities involved with the creation of most things anymore, I'd be denying myself a lot. Likewise, I'd be supporting a bunch of bullshit because the people involved were nice and/or conscientious or this or that or the other thing.


Don't get me wrong, the singer of my favorite band and I just don't get along. Different types of personalities, I guess. I'll still support the band every chance I get because I love their music. Racism is more than having a personality flaw, though, as is homophobia and having the wherewithal to actually take away someone else's life. On purpose. That's not cute and it's definitely something that makes it hard for me to look past, particularly as one that would draw his ire on many of his, uh, platforms.
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Re: Viking: Burzum

Postby jane_doe on Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:06 am

RSMurphy wrote:
Kate Revitte wrote:Why is GG Allin ok to give a pass to but not Burzum?


It's not. I've never given him a pass. If memory serves I gave him a what for in his documentary thread. Fuck GG Allin. Where did that come from???

Look there's plenty of horrible people who make beautiful music. You shouldn't have to want to be friends with a person to dig the art they create. The reason it is art and not craft is that the artist drops out of the equation and it can be appreciated without approving of the artist as a person.


Eh, I don't buy it and have no problems denying myself the experience of their art if I despise them as much as a human can despise another human. I don't hang out with muderers, racists, and homophobes, so why should I support them? Like I posted earlier, there are far too many people making incredibly uneasy music that don't require me to check my scruples at the door. I'm not saying that those who do buy his merch/support do this thing, but why even bother with the hassle of wrestling with the question?


I can appreciate both sides of this. FWIW, I own all the Burzum albums up through Filosofem, and Belus -- but I've bought all of them used, because I just couldn't bear to give that fascist mofo my money directly. So P.C., right? Fine. I might add, those are ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE records that have changed my world in many ways, changed the ways I think about music and my relationship with the outdoors and the everyday. These things are important to me, personally. This contention of "there are many weird records out there that I could listen to with no Nazi affiliation", well, it's not exactly true. Varg has a uniquely bleak, devastating vision. It is non-substitutable.

But ultimately, one will have to make the choice: Buy Burzum: Fallen (boy, I really hope that isn't the actual artwork, because it sucks ass),
or don't.

I can understand either choice. But I'ma wait until Fallen appears on the Amazon used market, and eagerly snap it up, as I did with Belus. I am aware of the ethical wackness involved in this position.

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Re: Viking: Burzum

Postby Dovey on Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:33 am

Had to wait til the last page, but RSMurphy finally nailed it on the head.

There's a ton of awesome black metal music made by people who aren't unapologetic racist murdering cunts. Most black metal dudes of note were pretty silly back in the early to mid-90s but the vast majority of them have actually grown up and acquired some common sense and logic somewhere along the way. Varg is a permanent pissed-off attention-seeking teenager with way more influence and power than any immature little shit ever deserves. Fuck him. Listen to Darkthrone, you cunts.
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Re: Viking: Burzum

Postby Kate Rev on Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:39 am

Dovey wrote:Had to wait til the last page, but RSMurphy finally nailed it on the head.

There's a ton of awesome black metal music made by people who aren't unapologetic racist murdering cunts. Most black metal dudes of note were pretty silly back in the early to mid-90s but the vast majority of them have actually grown up and acquired some common sense and logic somewhere along the way. Varg is a permanent pissed-off attention-seeking teenager with way more influence and power than any immature little shit ever deserves. Fuck him. Listen to Darkthrone, you cunts.


Telling people what to do? Ah, zo. You have more in common with Varg than you think ya fascist. ;)
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Re: Viking: Burzum

Postby A Totem Pole on Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:47 am

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Re: Viking: Burzum

Postby SecondEdition on Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:01 pm

A Totem Pole wrote:
jane_doe wrote: (boy, I really hope that isn't the actual artwork, because it sucks ass),


I'm as big a Theodor Kittelsen fan as the next guy (this image never fails to make me laugh):

Image

But, you really think that painting sucks ass? The font sucks, yeah, but I think it's a great painting. I think it suits Burzum well, too...

It's by William-Adolphe Bouguereau, by the way. Check out some of his other work if you're interested. The guy was on some shit.


That's what I think is the problem, most people probably don't.
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Re: Viking: Burzum

Postby A Totem Pole on Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:13 pm

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Re: Viking: Burzum

Postby J. Burns on Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:10 pm

Kate Revitte wrote:Why is GG Allin ok to give a pass to but not Burzum?


I think Burzum gets way more passes than he deserves. He's done a few cool records, but then again, so have Skrewdriver.

If White Power "Oi!" music doesn't get a pass, then neither does Varg or the NSBM bands that he has influenced.

Support good bands, not Nazis and murderers.
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Re: Viking: Burzum

Postby jeff_fox on Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:26 pm

Ok. A friend of mine dumped a good percentage of the Burzum discography onto my computer years ago and I've given it a few tries. Listening to Filosofem now. Uhhhh, no. And I LIKE a good deal of black metal or whatever you call this. I love Enslaved, Emperor, the bands that can actually play/write a song. This guy is a hack. And it sounds like shit too. The guitar sounds like a line6 pod on 'thrash' setting. The more atmospheric stuff...fuckin yanni.
Oh, and he's a murdering, homophobic, racist cuntbag. No thanks. At least Anal Cunt is funny.
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Re: Viking: Burzum

Postby Ernest on Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:20 pm

Dovey wrote:Had to wait til the last page, but RSMurphy finally nailed it on the head.

There's a ton of awesome black metal music made by people who aren't unapologetic racist murdering cunts. Most black metal dudes of note were pretty silly back in the early to mid-90s but the vast majority of them have actually grown up and acquired some common sense and logic somewhere along the way. Varg is a permanent pissed-off attention-seeking teenager with way more influence and power than any immature little shit ever deserves. Fuck him. Listen to Darkthrone, you cunts.


I can't agree. It glosses over the point that even if you may not agree politically, the music you love could be made by obscene pieces of shit; men who beat their wives, abuse kids, kill animals, whatever it is that's morally distasteful. It makes no sense in that case to say, "well, all that aside, because I don't know", but then get up in arms over a reactionary like Varg. There is a definite divide between the music and it's creator, but I don't think setting these kinds of arbitrary dividing lines is the way to go at it. The creator, even if it is distasteful, is irrelevant in many senses. It's the art's use, that I think, counts more.

One thing, though, is that Black Metal is almost inherently a far right-wing style of music. The black metal that is acceptable, Wolves In The Blah Blah, Xasthur, are milquetoast to what black metal is; it's simply aping the sound unironically. Like a defanged Nazi hymn. It's already right wing in that it's the style created, and popularized by reactionaries, and even the most apolitical black metal band is left with a weird taste in their mouths because of this close association.

Leaving all that aside, Darkthrone is now motor/diamond head for 2011. Burzum still kicks a mean decent human being's ass.
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Re: Viking: Burzum

Postby J. Burns on Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:56 pm

Ernest wrote:One thing, though, is that Black Metal is almost inherently a far right-wing style of music.


I dunno about that.
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Re: Viking: Burzum

Postby Ernest on Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:22 pm

If some of the hallmarks of reactionary politics are it's insistence of a counter to change, of enlightenment ideas, the aestheticization of force, and death, and the aestheticization of politics, black metal fits squarely in this territory (that is, before San Fransisco and Williamsburg kids mindlessly appropriated it). It's not ironic-Laibach style Fascism I'm talking about it, it's about the link between certain attitudes, and beliefs propagated through a form specifically tailored for it. Second wave black metal is a lot less anti-status quo than it is the preservation of it.

As a matter of taste, I don't mean to say one shouldn't listen, but that musical style isn't a tabula rasa we'd like to be. Black metal today is like the Hitler restaurants in Indonesia. "What? we don't condone the suffering, he was just an interesting character."
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Re: Viking: Burzum

Postby Ptommydski on Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:31 pm

A friend of mine who likes Burzum refuses to buy his music despite being an avid fan because he doesn't want to give his money to a white supremacist. It's a curious stance but I suppose admirable, at least from a certain perspective.

Not to justify Varg but I'd imagine my iTunes is sadly full of music created by bigots, homophobes, racists and misogynists. Even a couple of murderers thrown in for good measures (Leadbelly and Fang to name two). Varg is more open about it but I'm not kidding myself by pretending all of the musicians I like are angels.
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Re: Viking: Burzum

Postby J. Burns on Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:42 pm

Here's the thing: despite what we've all read in Lords Of Chaos, NSBM in general and Varg in particular are but a small part of Black Metal.

It's kinda like thinking Television throw their feces around because they're a punk rock band just like the Murder Junkies.
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Re: Viking: Burzum

Postby Ernest on Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:05 pm

I never read Lords of Chaos. I'm not talking about church-burning, band-mate-killing.

The example doesn't work because Allin was never someone typical of the punk scene; if the fringe had a fringe, it was him, but black metal's fervent reaction-ism is much more widespread, and closer to the norm than self mutilation and shitting on stage were. The pagan fetishism, the racism, the xenophobia, the notion of will power; these things are at the birth of black metal as we know it, as opposed to Venom-era bullshit. Punk was appropriated by the likes of Screwdriver, but something farther to the right seems to be have been the spark in the Norwegian scene, or at the very least, forcing itself into the music.
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Re: Viking: Burzum

Postby jane_doe on Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:05 am

A Totem Pole wrote:I don't know. On the surface, it's naturalistic, mournful, and reminiscent of the past which are themes I associate with Burzum's music.


Yeah, you might be right about the painting. Thanks for the context. It's, ehh, growing on me. It is pretty fitting, esp. when not cropped to focus on the "naughty bits", and you're right that my main gripe is re the logo. I know this makes me sound like some sort of tr00 kvlt metalhead (uh, no), but the original Burzum logo seemed very appropriately austere. I disliked the Christophe Szpajdel-esque logo on Belus for more or less the same reason I disliked the logo that Szpajdel actually did for Wolves In the Throne Room: they both seemed like [fenriz] very generic, modern, plastic black metal conventions superseding what had been organic design choices conceived by the band [/fenriz].

Ernest wrote:If some of the hallmarks of reactionary politics are it's insistence of a counter to change, of enlightenment ideas, the aestheticization of force, and death, and the aestheticization of politics, black metal fits squarely in this territory (that is, before San Fransisco and Williamsburg kids mindlessly appropriated it). It's not ironic-Laibach style Fascism I'm talking about it, it's about the link between certain attitudes, and beliefs propagated through a form specifically tailored for it. Second wave black metal is a lot less anti-status quo than it is the preservation of it.


First of all, not to be semantic, but let's bear in mind that what we're mainly talking about here is the second wave of Black Metal, which arose in Norway in the late '80s and early '90s. The "first wave" was hardly wavelike, temporally or geographically, including as it did such scattershot weirdos as Venom, Hellhammer, Celtic Frost, Sarcofago, Bathory, etc. I only point this out so that the less-acquainted readers don't get the notion that Black Metal is some monolithic thing, y'know..."metalcore" = Botch = Attack! Attack!.

My take is that there was certainly a nationalistic, reactionary tendency to early Norwegian Black Metal, but it was a reaction to certain alarming cultural tendencies that I think most of us on this forum can understand and even relate to. How many of us are virulently opposed to Christianity, for one thing? Or if you don't dig that, how many of us are virulently opposed to cultural imperialism? Okay, well, how many of us live in societies that were invaded and violently occuped by a foreign culture, within cultural memory, the sort of memory that could be passed down by our grandparents or other revered cultural elders?

I think there's another thread on here for the film Until the Light Takes Us, but for anyone who's weighed into this thread to do more than take the piss, that film is well worth seeing. Most especially the DVD with bonus shit, because there is some very excellent, or at least enlightening shit in there. Relevant to the last comment, Varg repeatedly refers to his teenage castoffs as belonging to "the hamburger culture". There's a very poignant scene of his hometown, Bergen, showing the McArches culture that has infiltrated. Isn't this what Negative Approach was about? Is it really so hard to imagine yourself in this angry young man's church-burning shoes? (I mean, minus the fascist and racist bullshit, which is clearly a juvenile holdover denial of his own crimes.)

Are any of you guys familar with the k-punk blog? British dude has some very interesting ideas regarding "dysphoric" movements, including Black Metal, Joy Division, and so on. I'm generally skeptical of these sort of intellectualizations of Black Metal, but having read a bit of this guy's writing, I think he is the real deal. I'd be curious about any reactions from those who are more well versed in this (decidedly non-scientific) realm than I am.

Incidentally, Wolves In the Throne Room are very, very far from milquetoast or ironic. If you've read any of their interviews or really absorbed their records, you'll know what I mean. I think they've really appropriated the "nationalistic" tendencies of first-wave Norwegian Black Metal and reinterpreted them in service of a new, radically "ecocentric" agenda. Make of this what you will, but personally, as a conservation biologist, I'm a heckuva lot more sympathetic to the latter than the former.

Lastly, my apologies for my first three posts on here (after lurking for who knows how many years) being made while blasted out of my mind, from my work address, and with an obvious (though quite sincere) username. Yep. Sorry 'bout that.


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Re: Viking: Burzum

Postby Blue of Noon on Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:33 am

I don't know if Burzum are crap, but "Count Grishnackh" is a dipshit.
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