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Comedian: Joe Rogan

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Joe Rogan

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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby Andrew. on Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:07 pm

JFord wrote:Imagine if that's how the labor movement had conducted itself over the last century.


I mean, there were racist and white-supremacist labor unions a century ago and there's still tons of racism and sexism in some unions and locals that inhibit their effectiveness. Obviously brushing aside bigotry and shitty understandings of the world that dehumanize real people isn't the way forward.

The legal "Duty to Fair Representation" that unions have to their members originates from when black workers took on a white-supremacist railroad union in the 40s (the case is called Steele v. Louisville & Nashville Railroad).

All this stuff gets out of whack when people talk about social media like it's the same discursive space as A WORKPLACE though. You do need to try and unionize people with racist and homophobic attitudes along w everyone else, but in the process of unionizing them the goal is to engage them in a process that will undo those attitudes. In my experience as a union organizer, it's people w a sense of decency and justice who agitate to unionize, and macho dumbasses usually aren't much help.

Rogan perpetuates ignorance and stupidity as a fundamental part of his whole thing. He's crap for that reason. But that doesn't mean his listeners are people who shouldn't be won over to better ways of thinking and being.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby JFord on Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:14 pm

I mean, there were racist and white-supremacist labor unions a century ago and there's still tons of racism and sexism in some unions and locals that inhibit their effectiveness. Obviously brushing aside bigotry and shitty understandings of the world that dehumanize real people isn't the way forward.

Do you think Bernie Sanders is in danger of calling for "a boys have penises, girls have vaginas" legal theory of gender because of the Rogan endorsement? Or for his campaign? Is this now a slippery slope?

When you are working on, say, a pay raise campaign in your union, do you huddle with these workers and say "by the way, how do you feel about trans women fighting cisgender women in MMA fights" and if they say "I dunno man, that's kinda weird, lady-dudes beating up chicks for sport," do you pause the campaign to purge them? Discipline them in some way? Do you announce "clearly, we cannot find solidarity because there is transphobia in our midst"?

It's literally a "moral contaminant" theory of politics. Absolutely bizarre (I blame Protestantism, personally).
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby biscuitdough on Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:58 pm

JFord, can you like, write but not read or something?
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby Me Again on Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:25 pm

JFord wrote:Do you think Bernie Sanders is in danger of calling for "a boys have penises, girls have vaginas" legal theory of gender because of the Rogan endorsement? Or for his campaign? Is this now a slippery slope?

When you are working on, say, a pay raise campaign in your union, do you huddle with these workers and say "by the way, how do you feel about trans women fighting cisgender women in MMA fights" and if they say "I dunno man, that's kinda weird, lady-dudes beating up chicks for sport," do you pause the campaign to purge them? Discipline them in some way? Do you announce "clearly, we cannot find solidarity because there is transphobia in our midst"?

It's literally a "moral contaminant" theory of politics. Absolutely bizarre...


This ^^^ is an excellent post.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby biscuitdough on Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:33 am

No, it's a fucking trash post.

It replies to an entire post while focusing on inferences from one statement in that post. It ignores everything else. It concerns a situation that exists only in JFords imagination. It's bad faith, Trump style attacking, not any kind of serious discussion.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby placeholder on Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:30 am

biscuitdough wrote:No, it's a fucking trash post.

It replies to an entire post while focusing on inferences from one statement in that post. It ignores everything else. It concerns a situation that exists only in JFords imagination. It's bad faith, Trump style attacking, not any kind of serious discussion.


FM biscuitdough is correct. Don't engage with trolls.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby enframed on Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:42 am

Has Rogan really "attacked" marginalized people? He says some frat-boy level stupid shit (was that an attack?), indeed, but I don't think I've ever heard him say anything that seemed like an attack.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby JFord on Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:48 am

Not a troll. Sorry to disappoint.

Many of you want to believe you can support working class politics *and* the woke crusade that is used over and over again by the ruling class to suppress the former every single day in US and UK papers. It already took down Corbyn whether it was the ludicrous antisemitism fake scandal or the belief that Brexit would suddenly turn Britain into a concentration camp run by Northern bigots. And that Britain was somehow better off under the control of woke central bankers in Brussels.

You literally all got to watch this experiment play out just a few weeks ago and still are in denial.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby Angus Jung on Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:22 am

JFord wrote:Not a troll. Sorry to disappoint.

It says troll right under your new username, bro. Try logging in under one of your older accounts, see how that works out for you.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby kokorodoko on Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:10 pm

JFord wrote:Many of you want to believe you can support working class politics *and* the woke crusade that is used over and over again by the ruling class to suppress the former every single day in US and UK papers.

I was going to begin writing a response to this, but so as to not start from misconceptions, I'll first ask for clarification: What are you referring to when you say "the woke crusade"?
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby Wood Goblin on Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:23 pm

Wait, do you think JFord is an alias for an older poster?

If that’s the case, I have my suspicions re: who it might be.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby Andrew. on Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:47 pm

It's irrelevant since buddy doesn't seem to read the posts he's responding to, but I've posted at length on the forum about how racism and sexism can undermine the power of unions.

Meanwhile, the most popular union convention panel I've ever helped organize was an equity panel a few years ago that featured a local trans activist, a BLM Toronto activist, and a young female Indigenous activist. The hundreds of convention delegates were mostly older, white, rural workers (Despite the fact some of their locals are very diverse, POC workers still aren't represented at conventions).

It was by far the most popular panel of the convention, top-rated in the evaluation forms, even though it made people uncomfortable. Delegates found it fascinating and moving. In the Q&A, a trans woman, a school custodian in her 50s who transitioned a few years ago, stepped to the mic and spoke, and you'd be hard pressed to find a greater moment of solidarity among workers. Lots of frumpy Saskatchewan carehome workers in tears.

Again, workplace organizing and "the discourse" on Twitter are completely different things. And anyone who sets up a binary between caring about bigotry and working-class struggle simply doesn't know what they're talking about. They're just chasing around SJWs on Twitter, which -- newsflash -- won't do much to save anyone's pension.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby Me Again on Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:27 pm

I don't agree that what FM JFord calls "working class politics" and "the woke crusade" are mutually exclusive.

More what I've responded to here, in his quote I liked above, is that it can come down to a question of priorities.

And with that in mind, sometimes, as in the case of Bernie not rejecting his Rogan endorsement, it's okay to let go of the latter for a bit while embracing the former, for the greater good.

This seems incredibly simple, but not everyone here seems to agree.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby Angus Jung on Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:47 pm

Me Again wrote:"the woke crusade"

This phrase is a) a deeply embarrassing thing for an adult human to non-ironically say, and b)the same shit someone like Ben Shapiro says. It's the language of a troll.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby Me Again on Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:53 pm

His words, not mine. The reason I put them in quotes. I'm sorry if that offended you.

But the basic point stands. You could substitute that expression with "wokeness" or "moral high ground" or "rabidly-informed lefty values" or whatever you care to type, I don't care. And whether he's a "troll" or not doesn't diminish the basic truth at hand...

"Politics" in a nutshell often entails thinking or acting strategically, and even for someone like Bernie that can mean letting go of certain things, for the time being, while focusing on bigger matters. This is the simplest thing in the world, and even we can't seem to agree on this point in this very thread. That's not a good sign.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby Wood Goblin on Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:36 pm

Strategically, it makes sense to appear on Rohan’s stupid podcast, because he reaches a wide audience, who you’d like to persuade to support you and maybe even to think like you. There’s a reason all the candidates wanted to appear on it, even if he’s a dude-bro asshole. And it also sucks that he’s basically interested in only other dude-bros and hot chicks, with occasional space for crazy people.

Strategically, it makes less sense for Bernie to promote the Rogan endorsement, since he was just accused of telling a woman than women can’t win. And later making clumsy comments about how being a woman is a flaw. It won’t hurt Bernie, but I’m sure a lot of people cringed.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby Me Again on Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:48 pm

There's no need to cast aspersions on Bernie, like he's just shaken hands with the devil. He's not misogynist or transphobic any more than he's antisemitic.

And it seems like quite a stretch to paint Rogan as a "bigot" who's "attacked" marginalized people. No one here has demonstrated this yet. He might be stupid or shortsighted or "bro-y" in some people's eyes, but he's not some David Duke type who's afraid of or hostile toward people of color or smart women or gay people or whatever.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby VaticanShotglass on Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:07 pm

Me Again wrote:You could substitute that expression with "wokeness" or "moral high ground" or "rabidly-informed lefty values" or whatever you care to type, I don't care.


For all the cartoon labels that I can hardly keep up with, it really just comes down to the fact that not being an asshole could involve a few things you might not have considered.

Like so many of us grew up using the word "retarded" (either in the literal sense or as an insult), but it's pretty obvious now that that word has a lot of negative baggage that can really bring some people down, not because they are big old wimps, but because life is full of shit already and in the course of a day maybe not having the baggage of that word to deal with is for the better. Especially since there are more of those words for some people than others.

It's not about being perfect, it's about knowing more about the world and the other people in it and caring just enough not to shit on somebody's day.

As for the endorsement. I would not have been as enthusiastic about officially promoting it, but I think it is a good thing for the campaign. It could be a fruitful invitation for Rogan and fans to step up. It doesn't have be about Sanders stepping down. If I were speaking on behalf of Sanders to critics, I'd convey it that way. Glad to have Rogan's vote, would love to have him move closer to us on the issues criticized. This is all about making progress.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby VaticanShotglass on Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:26 pm

Me Again wrote:And it seems like quite a stretch to paint Rogan as a "bigot" who's "attacked" marginalized people. No one here has demonstrated this yet. He might be stupid or shortsighted or "bro-y" in some people's eyes, but he's not some David Duke type who's afraid of or hostile toward people of color or smart women or gay people or whatever.


I mean he's not beating people with his fists. He has often made marginalized people butt of his joking around. About trans people he has specifically used slurs as punchlines to artless joking and expressed disgust at least once (I know for sure Howard Stern has been far worse on this front). I can't say they are outright "jokes" but rather that sort of smiling, exacerbated ranting that I presume is his comedy. He will also slip into some being nasty about women. I don't mean being vulgar or playing with bad taste. I mean seeming to express nasty attitudes. He also has plenty of airtime where he speaks much more respectfully. If that is what he does going forward, then I commend that.

There's a difference between vulgarity and bad taste on one hand and disrespect on the other. Bring on the former all day. With bad taste, some of it walks a line; some caution should be used. Maybe keep that between yourself and someone who really loves you.

As for demonstration, I'm not going to slog through hours of that podcast to find the incidents I have in mind. It's not worth it to me. Earlier posts by myself and others have been pretty specific about shitty bits by him. Maybe there are some clips, I don't recall.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby Me Again on Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:15 am

VaticanShotglass wrote:For all the cartoon labels that I can hardly keep up with, it really just comes down to the fact that not being an asshole could involve a few things you might not have considered.

Like so many of us grew up using the word "retarded" (either in the literal sense or as an insult), but it's pretty obvious now that that word has a lot of negative baggage that can really bring some people down, not because they are big old wimps, but because life is full of shit already and in the course of a day maybe not having the baggage of that word to deal with is for the better. Especially since there are more of those words for some people than others.

It's not about being perfect, it's about knowing more about the world and the other people in it and caring just enough not to shit on somebody's day.


I don't take issue with any of this, unless it's brought to some kind of unreasonable extreme. Not being an asshole is all well and good. But what we're (or at least I'm) talking about here is not whether being "woke" is valid, but rather whether this impulse or outlook should supersede everything else at all times. In other words, do we always, at every single opportunity, have to flex this particular muscle, even if it causes unnecessary or unproductive division where it need not be, when more pressing or even more general or unrelated matters are at hand. Does every single situation have to be some kind of ideological battleground, in which one isn't willing to give an inch and all principles must be adhered to before anything gets done and people agree to work together...?

Doubtful.

VaticanShotglass wrote:As for demonstration, I'm not going to slog through hours of that podcast to find the incidents I have in mind. It's not worth it to me. Earlier posts by myself and others have been pretty specific about shitty bits by him. Maybe there are some clips, I don't recall.


Oh, I don't blame you. I wouldn't want to do that either. But I'm just generally curious if anything he's said or done is demonstrably worse than the sort of things Bill Burr or Jim Norton or Jim Jeffries say in their acts or informal chats. Maybe I'll watch Rogan's special on Netflix sometime and see if it has any "attacks" that would be the hallmark of a genuine "bigot" (someone else's words, not mine).
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