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Comedian: Joe Rogan

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Joe Rogan

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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby Wood Goblin on Mon May 11, 2020 3:07 pm

Honest question: what is true of Musk/Tesla that isn’t also true of UFC, which you love? Because they seem like two sides of the same coin (currency = a Rogan) to me.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby jeff_fox on Mon May 11, 2020 3:10 pm

A bunch of racists bashing each others skulls in is THE FUTURE! Fuck private electric vehicles!
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby Wood Goblin on Mon May 11, 2020 3:21 pm

I mean, I think Musk is a choad too.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby blackmarket on Mon May 11, 2020 3:24 pm

jeff_fox wrote:Advancing EV technology and accessibility is the one thing NOT on that list.


I don't think Elon Musk is advancing the accessibility of electric vehicles. Teslas are mostly toys for the upper middle class and above.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby jeff_fox on Mon May 11, 2020 3:51 pm

blackmarket wrote:
jeff_fox wrote:Advancing EV technology and accessibility is the one thing NOT on that list.


I don't think Elon Musk is advancing the accessibility of electric vehicles. Teslas are mostly toys for the upper middle class and above.


The lowest priced model is currently about equal to a fully loaded Honda, so yeah. Factor in the fact that they're almost zero maintenance, and uh, never buying gas and it becomes more feasible every year... But even ignoring all that, installing the fast charging infrastructure which any EV can use is what's really improving accessibility.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby blackmarket on Mon May 11, 2020 4:07 pm

jeff_fox wrote:
blackmarket wrote:
jeff_fox wrote:Advancing EV technology and accessibility is the one thing NOT on that list.


I don't think Elon Musk is advancing the accessibility of electric vehicles. Teslas are mostly toys for the upper middle class and above.


The lowest priced model is currently about equal to a fully loaded Honda, so yeah. Factor in the fact that they're almost zero maintenance, and uh, never buying gas and it becomes more feasible every year... But even ignoring all that, installing the fast charging infrastructure which any EV can use is what's really improving accessibility.


No car is zero maintenance. That's a ridiculous calculation to be making. The driver isn't buying gas, but they are paying for electricity. Toyota is doing far more as an entry point to the EV market than boutique brands like Telsa. I drive my Prius all over and fill up every two weeks. It's almost like not paying for gas. Maybe even close to just paying for electricity. I don't know. We have several Prius the family, including one from 2001 that technically still runs. They last for a very long time, with low (not no) maintenance. Telsas, on the other hand, are not accessible vehicles to most people.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby jeff_fox on Mon May 11, 2020 4:13 pm

There is no engine. There is no transmission. The brakes last 10x longer than most cars because of regenerative braking. Maintenance is near zero compared with combustion engines. Not ridiculous. Calculated using the average gas price across the country, a "full tank" costs about $8-9. The "equivalent mpg" is 150 to 175. The prius is cool, but not even in the same league. Plug in-hybrids that can operate 100% electric for a short range sacrifice a ton of efficiency with their inclusion of an engine.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby blackmarket on Mon May 11, 2020 4:17 pm

Apparently, the only thing that saves EVs from hybrids in a cost analysis are tax credits. Comparable operating costs of similarly classed vehicles come in couple thousand apart, which is wash over a lifetime of use.

Driving an electric car can save 36% or $10,538 over five years. In all 27 cities we examined, the Nissan Leaf was by far the cheapest to own. Although all three car models we analyzed are similarly priced, on average, Nissan Leaf owners will spend $10,538 less than Camry drivers and $9,609 less than Prius owners over five years. The savings are mainly due to the $7,500 federal tax credit provided to Leaf and all electric car owners, but even without the credit, the Leaf is cheaper to own. Prius owners don’t receive a credit.

https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/e ... osts-2015/
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby jeff_fox on Mon May 11, 2020 4:19 pm

I totally agree that Tesla needs a true entry level model.

But I digress. The founder of the company being a piece of shit in no way diminishes the need or the value of the move to all electric vehicles.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby blackmarket on Mon May 11, 2020 4:24 pm

jeff_fox wrote:There is no engine. There is no transmission. The brakes last 10x longer than most cars because of regenerative braking. Maintenance is near zero compared with combustion engines. Not ridiculous.


Of course it's a ridiculous assertion. It's not true. I drive a hybrid and enjoy many of the same benefits. Regenerative brakes wear down. My are close to due for new pads after 12 years. My trans is sealed, requiring (actually) no maintenance. I might get the fluid changed, just 'cause. Two full-synthetic oil changes per year. That's about all I have had to do to it, but there are still quite a few other systems built into modern cars that are points of potential failure. The maintenance I haven't had to do, I imagine, comes down to the manufacturer and Toyota's long history of quality products, not simply because it an electric.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby Andrew. on Tue May 12, 2020 8:24 am

Wood Goblin wrote:Honest question: what is true of Musk/Tesla that isn’t also true of UFC, which you love? Because they seem like two sides of the same coin (currency = a Rogan) to me.


This is the equivalent of "Hey, I heard you don't like capitalism, so why do you like professional baseball so much then?"

Utterly stupid whataboutism. If I was defending Rogan instead of posting repeatedly about what an idiot he is,you might almost have a point to make. But my position is that Rogan is an intellectual dummy and Musk is a union-busting, anti-social, capitalist billionaire piece of shit. There's no contradiction.

Musk is one of the world's leading ideologists for the view that capitalist manufacturing and private consumption are viable paths out of the climate crisis. You can drive an electric car and love it and still understand and oppose that worldview and the inequality and harm it perpetuates.

The ideology Musk advances and the social relations he imposes as a billionaire capitalist industrialist are destroying the planet, not saving it.

Meanwhile yesterday:

Elon Musk Reopens California Tesla Plant, Defying Local Health Officials (Again)
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronaviru ... ials-again

A century ago, you and Jeff would've been defending Henry Ford from leftwing critics.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby Wood Goblin on Tue May 12, 2020 8:46 am

Neither of us is defending Musk. I never bought into the cult of Musk because I’ve never bought into the cult of any CEO. But it’s clear to me that the ridiculous veneration of Musk has led to a backlash that, while necessary, also overstates his evil. I agree with you 100% that capitalism won’t save the environment and that it’s foolish to pin hopes on “benevolent” CEOs. But in a world that contains tobacco company CEOs and coal company CEOs and oil company CEOs, I just can’t get that worked up about Musk. Especially since the EVs and solar panels actually represent a meaningful step forward that our government hasn’t been able to manage.

So really, there’s no need to attack people for positions that they don’t have. Nobody here likes or admires Musk; even the few fanboys abandoned him. But nobody else hates Musk with what you consider the right level of vitriol or with the right kind of language,
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby Wood Goblin on Tue May 12, 2020 8:48 am

As for left-leaning critics of Ford, well, who knows how we would think? Who knows how any of us would think? Unions protested the man, but Lenin took notes on how he ran his assembly lines.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby Andrew. on Tue May 12, 2020 9:47 am

It's not just about Musk. It's about the ideology and social relations he advances.

From a new book I referenced up thread: https://btlbooks.com/book/do-androids-d ... ctric-cars

Chapter 2: Manufacturing Automobility
The anti-transit underpinnings of the "three revolutions."

Public transportation has already been undermined by decades of austerity and political infatuation with the private automobile. Even if nothing were to change technologically in how cars operate, most transit systems would still be in seriously bad shape. In the U.S., 17.3 million new vehicles were sold in 2018, close to the highest number in history.

The share of households without a vehicle in the U.S. dropped from 21 percent to 9 percent between 1969 and 2009, with low-income households increasingly owning vehicles. Conditions are, predictably, getting worse with Trump's presidency. His administration cut federal transit funding from 28 percent of transportation grants to 8.5 percent, while increasing funding to highways, roads, and bridges from 34.8 percent between 2014 and 2016 to 70.4 percent.


Cut to: Trump says Elon Musk is like Thomas Edison: ‘He’s one of our great geniuses’
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/22/trump-l ... iuses.html

Trump sides with Elon Musk: ‘Open the plant, NOW’

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/12/trump-s ... t-now.html

Back to book excerpt:

Existing political institutions are doing more than enough to marginalize transit as it is. But the "three revolutions" in automobility--electricification, sharing or pooling, and autonomous vehicles--threaten to deliver the fatal blow. This isn't because of any sort of innate superiority over buses and trains. Rather, these so-called revolutions are capturing political and public attention by further commodifying transportation, reiterating the myth that public transit is an outmoded approach. In this chapter I'll discuss what these alleged revolutions are, their claims and failings, and why public transit remains the best option to anchor collective struggle.


James points out that our automobile fetish means that while vehicles got lighter for a few decades, the explosion in SUV and light truck sales has seen the average weight of vehicles rebound to over 4,000 pounds, like it's 1973 again. The Tesla Cybertruck weighs over 8,000 pounds.

Even more to the point, there's automobility's effect on urban planning, sprawl, intercity transit, etc.

Catching an Amtrak train between Chicago and Cleveland has become near impossible, despitethe fixes being simple: upgrading tracks, running more trains, giving passenger rail priority over freight. As a result of government failure to prioritize passenger rail, Elon Musk's entirely theoretical Hyperloop proposal is being celebrated as an alternative between the cities, making these passenger rail improvements even less likely due to political distraction.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby Wood Goblin on Tue May 12, 2020 10:08 am

Count me among the huge supporters of a robust and expanding public transportation system. But if people are going to drive—and we have to accept that it’s the preference for many and the only option for many more—then we need that carbon footprint to be as small as possible.

As for me, we have a car and hardly use it, but we also live downtown.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby Andrew. on Tue May 12, 2020 10:55 am

Most people have no real choice but to commute or get groceries by car, and that's not by accident. It's because of a century of people like Musk commodifying transportation and building the material and social world that capitalists profit from, not the world people and the planet need.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby jeff_fox on Tue May 12, 2020 8:06 pm

When did I defend Musk even once? Jesus fucking christ.

Andrew. wrote:Most people have no real choice but to commute or get groceries by car,

This is WHERE WE ARE NOW because of shitty urban and suburban planning. Wishing the last century didn't happen will not change that. The rest is irrelevant. There is no way to eliminate cars outside of large urban areas.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby jeff_fox on Tue May 12, 2020 8:15 pm

Wood Goblin wrote: But in a world that contains tobacco company CEOs and coal company CEOs and oil company CEOs, I just can’t get that worked up about Musk. Especially since the EVs and solar panels actually represent a meaningful step forward that our government hasn’t been able to manage.

Tesla is about 1% of the market. Musk is widely considered a freakish, out-of-touch joke. If working conditions in the factory were acceptable, Tesla would be unequivocally a net positive for humanity. As far as human rights violations, Apple is guilty of FAR FUCKING MORE.
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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby enframed on Tue May 12, 2020 8:53 pm

jeff_fox wrote:
Wood Goblin wrote: But in a world that contains tobacco company CEOs and coal company CEOs and oil company CEOs, I just can’t get that worked up about Musk. Especially since the EVs and solar panels actually represent a meaningful step forward that our government hasn’t been able to manage.

Tesla is about 1% of the market. Musk is widely considered a freakish, out-of-touch joke. If working conditions in the factory were acceptable, Tesla would be unequivocally a net positive for humanity. As far as human rights violations, Apple is guilty of FAR FUCKING MORE.

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Re: Comedian: Joe Rogan

Postby Andrew. on Thu May 14, 2020 9:27 am

Someone on FB:

Joe Rogan to Jordan Peterson: People can just call themselves whatever they want! They're calling themselves elves! That's some crazy SJW bullshit! These people are nuts! Can you explain why this is happening, professor Peterson?

Three years later:

Joe Rogan to Elon Musk: Your son's name is really interesting. Tell me more about it. Oh, that's awesome! How unique!
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