home studios equipment staff/friends booking/rates for sale forum contact

Abstaining from alcohol.

Vote and debate.

Moderators: kerble, Electrical-Staff

Re: Abstaining from alcohol.

Postby Pasta on Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:00 pm

jbar wrote:
BusBus wrote:Whew. Today marks a year with no alcohol or cigs. Some mental bumps and bruises along the way, but I'm way happier today vs. last year. From thoughts of suicide, extreme hypochondria, border line eating disorder issues, no sleep, and a desire to quit my job(consequences be damned), to a semi stable state today. Whew.


Feels good, don't it? Congratulations!



That's awesome. 9 months next week. Was just thinking how serene life is becoming.
RSMurphy wrote:Everything I enjoy about metal: heavy, cool riffs, hooks, expressive vocals.
User avatar
Pasta
Fucking Survivor....Fuck Cancer
 
Posts: 3257
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:11 pm
Location: Doom Town

Re: Abstaining from alcohol.

Postby tmidgett on Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:08 pm

oZZma wrote:I am such a loser. I'm drinking again.


You can quit again, too!

Whatever is wrong in your life, if you have a drinking problem, the drinking will always makes it worse. A drinking problem doesn't mean you're a loser, but it can make it impossible for you to move forward.

A good friend had to go to medical detox four months ago. Was drinking all day, physically dependent, holding down a high-paying job he hated. Super skeptical about AA and he was going to do this and that differently etc. etc.

Went to hardcore outpatient for a month after rehab, which ended up including AA.

Now he goes to meetings, looks and feels a million times better. Have seen a lot of people quit, could be wrong, but he seems really quit.

Not so miraculously, he got a call, literally as he was walking out of rehab, about another, much better job. Since he was clearing up his shit, he was able to follow up on it, and he got the job after months of interviews, just a week or two ago.

What seemed like an intractable set of problems to him four or five months ago is just gone. Not always how it works, but at least you get a shot if you get rid of the one big problem.
User avatar
tmidgett
Present-day God
Present-day God
 
Posts: 9417
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:30 pm

Re: Abstaining from alcohol.

Postby garthplinko on Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:31 am

A little embarrassing since Tim was the last poster in this thread, but listening to his interview on the Crash-n-Ride podcast he said a few things that really resonated w/ me. Paraphrasing what he said but it was an observation about how normal folks have a drink or two and they're like "hm, yeah this ok not sure what the fuss is about, I could take it or leave it." but for alcoholics...it's the greatest thing ever.

The first time I really drank, I was alone and I got myself puking drunk. But much earlier on that ride it felt like I filled some hole in me that I didn't even know was empty. Like I found a missing puzzle piece. When I read Bukowski say more-or-less the same thing in Ham on Rye about the first time he got drunk, I should have known then how it was going to play out for me. I'm glad I got off the train with only mild scarring instead of the damage so many folks I know have had to try to live (or die) with.
User avatar
garthplinko
Humankind's Greatest Musical Genius
Humankind's Greatest Musical Genius
 
Posts: 4007
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:15 pm
Location: Kalamazoo

Re: Abstaining from alcohol.

Postby Boombats on Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:24 am

garthplinko wrote:A little embarrassing since Tim was the last poster in this thread, but listening to his interview on the Crash-n-Ride podcast he said a few things that really resonated w/ me. Paraphrasing what he said but it was an observation about how normal folks have a drink or two and they're like "hm, yeah this ok not sure what the fuss is about, I could take it or leave it." but for alcoholics...it's the greatest thing ever.

The first time I really drank, I was alone and I got myself puking drunk. But much earlier on that ride it felt like I filled some hole in me that I didn't even know was empty. Like I found a missing puzzle piece. When I read Bukowski say more-or-less the same thing in Ham on Rye about the first time he got drunk, I should have known then how it was going to play out for me. I'm glad I got off the train with only mild scarring instead of the damage so many folks I know have had to try to live (or die) with.

Alcohol was like the dad I never had, the invisible brother that had my back, the friends who weren't there, the badge of courage for a cowardly lion. I'm fortunate that I'm a good learner, because I took the experiences I had while drunk and turned them into lessons strengths and skills that I use in sobriety. Not everyone gets the chance to do so before the drink eats them alive.
Escape Rope / Blxck Onion / Black Mesa
warmowski wrote:Fire back, absolutely, always and forever no matter how much it blows Andy's mind.
User avatar
Boombats
Analingus Eggnog
 
Posts: 21296
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:31 am

Re: Abstaining from alcohol.

Postby Andrew. on Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:01 pm

garthplinko wrote:A little embarrassing since Tim was the last poster in this thread, but listening to his interview on the Crash-n-Ride podcast he said a few things that really resonated w/ me. Paraphrasing what he said but it was an observation about how normal folks have a drink or two and they're like "hm, yeah this ok not sure what the fuss is about, I could take it or leave it." but for alcoholics...it's the greatest thing ever.


It's such a great point. Non-alcoholics don't enjoy alcohol like alcoholics do (get the same sense of relief/satisfaction/comfort/escape). And it can be pivotal to realize and accept that you're one of the people for whom alcohol just works too well.

At exactly the same time, this framing can present not drinking as an act of willpower and restraint, where the key to sobriety is to deny yourself something that feels great. That can be a really shitty, self-defeating way to approach things (very Christian in orientation though, hence AA's God shit).

Jon Wurster was on the Trap Set podcast a few years ago and he explains how he quit drinking by reading Allen Carr's book Quit Drinking Without Willpower. Carr is the "Easy way to stop smoking" guy. I picked up the drinking book and it's kind of the opposite of AA. It presents willpower and restraint as almost guaranteed to fail. Instead, it presents not drinking as personal liberation, as something that will set you free from dependency, insecurity, shame, etc. The program is just that you read the book carefully from start to finish and quit when you're done reading it, same as the quit smoking book from what I understand (you're supposed to be sober when you're literally, physically reading the book but you don't have to be sober during the period you're reading it).

Different things work for different people (and AA is infamously overblown and statistically very ineffective), but I liked this approach of embracing not drinking as an act of liberation rather than an act of denial and restraint.
User avatar
Andrew.
Power Incarnate with Endless Creativity
Power Incarnate with Endless Creativity
 
Posts: 7046
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 11:02 pm

Re: Abstaining from alcohol.

Postby andyman on Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:26 pm

Andrew. wrote:
garthplinko wrote:A little embarrassing since Tim was the last poster in this thread, but listening to his interview on the Crash-n-Ride podcast he said a few things that really resonated w/ me. Paraphrasing what he said but it was an observation about how normal folks have a drink or two and they're like "hm, yeah this ok not sure what the fuss is about, I could take it or leave it." but for alcoholics...it's the greatest thing ever.


It's such a great point. Non-alcoholics don't enjoy alcohol like alcoholics do (get the same sense of relief/satisfaction/comfort/escape). And it can be pivotal to realize and accept that you're one of the people for whom alcohol just works too well.

At exactly the same time, this framing can present not drinking as an act of willpower and restraint, where the key to sobriety is to deny yourself something that feels great. That can be a really shitty, self-defeating way to approach things (very Christian in orientation though, hence AA's God shit).

Jon Wurster was on the Trap Set podcast a few years ago and he explains how he quit drinking by reading Allen Carr's book Quit Drinking Without Willpower. Carr is the "Easy way to stop smoking" guy. I picked up the drinking book and it's kind of the opposite of AA. It presents willpower and restraint as almost guaranteed to fail. Instead, it presents not drinking as personal liberation, as something that will set you free from dependency, insecurity, shame, etc. The program is just that you read the book carefully from start to finish and quit when you're done reading it, same as the quit smoking book from what I understand (you're supposed to be sober when you're literally, physically reading the book but you don't have to be sober during the period you're reading it).

Different things work for different people (and AA is infamously overblown and statistically very ineffective), but I liked this approach of embracing not drinking as an act of liberation rather than an act of denial and restraint.


I bought that book. Kept getting too drunk to read it. Couldn't get past the first chapter.
offal wrote:I just want to be able to play bitchin' single-stroke rolls before I die
User avatar
andyman
Humankind's Greatest Musical Genius
Humankind's Greatest Musical Genius
 
Posts: 4453
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:31 am
Location: Cambridge

Re: Abstaining from alcohol.

Postby Andrew. on Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:32 pm

andyman wrote:
I bought that book. Kept getting too drunk to read it. Couldn't get past the first chapter.


Hopefully you're joking, at least about the specifics. The first chapter is like 10 pages and the book is printed in giant font w wide margins. If you can't read 10 pages of text written at like a grade 6 reading level in giant font, because you're too wasted 24/7, you need a dire intervention.
User avatar
Andrew.
Power Incarnate with Endless Creativity
Power Incarnate with Endless Creativity
 
Posts: 7046
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 11:02 pm

Re: Abstaining from alcohol.

Postby Andrew. on Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:32 pm

dbl-post
Last edited by Andrew. on Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Andrew.
Power Incarnate with Endless Creativity
Power Incarnate with Endless Creativity
 
Posts: 7046
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 11:02 pm

Re: Abstaining from alcohol.

Postby tmidgett on Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:03 pm

Whatever works, but AA is famously _not_ about willpower.

It's about realizing you've lost the ability to choose your path.

Hence the (for some problematic) concept of surrendering to some kind of higher power. Hand it over to something else, and realize you're powerless in the moment.

Doesn't mean you remain powerless, but you are in that moment. So you turn to something greater than yourself. Could be a god thing as you understand it, or existence, or community, or whatever. As long as it's not just you on your own.

Not everyone has to do that, but for people who do, it works pretty well.

The better drinking feels, the worse it'll end up being for ya. That's why it kills so many people.
User avatar
tmidgett
Present-day God
Present-day God
 
Posts: 9417
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:30 pm

Re: Abstaining from alcohol.

Postby Andrew. on Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:51 pm

tmidgett wrote:Whatever works, but AA is famously _not_ about willpower.

It's about realizing you've lost the ability to choose your path.

Hence the (for some problematic) concept of surrendering to some kind of higher power. Hand it over to something else, and realize you're powerless in the moment.

Doesn't mean you remain powerless, but you are in that moment. So you turn to something greater than yourself. Could be a god thing as you understand it, or existence, or community, or whatever. As long as it's not just you on your own.


Yeah, a bad characterization on my part. I'm for whatever works for people, like everyone. Statistically, AA has a poor success rate, but it definitely works well for a small minority of people who try it.

“Peer reviewed studies peg the success rate of AA somewhere between five and 10 percent,” writes Dodes. “About one of every 15 people who enter these programs is able to become and stay sober.”


https://www.theatlantic.com/health/arch ... ps/284616/
User avatar
Andrew.
Power Incarnate with Endless Creativity
Power Incarnate with Endless Creativity
 
Posts: 7046
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 11:02 pm

Re: Abstaining from alcohol.

Postby jimmy spako on Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:07 pm

Regarding AA, I don't know whether it is fair to say it has a poor success rate. Is it low or poor? Is it poor in comparison to other organisations/methods? Is it low (whether in comparison or in general) because it is probably the biggest one out there and the one most people of all circumstances go to? Is there a material aspect if it is indeed comparatively low (i.e. is AA more likely to try to help people who don't have resources for other options or other options at all where they live, who are debatedly more in jeopardy of relapsing)? I would be careful to characterise it as wrong-headed and ineffective given the real impact it has had on so many people.

Full disclosure: my little brother is one of those people. Coming up on eight years sober and running meetings, sponsoring people or stepping up when their sponsors aren't available. His partner too. Essentially he volunteers every day to try to keep people on track and be there for them after stabilising his own life.

I see a strain of ideology there that is very "don't expect or demand 'handouts'" and "just keep your head down and focus on the task at hand" etc. that I sometimes feel is pretty limiting (and frustrating) from a political point of view, but from my personal contact with it, I would be hesitant to write it off so facilely as an approach to getting and staying sober.
Isabelle Gall wrote:'Do not go smoothly into that dark night'
User avatar
jimmy spako
Man with Encyclopedic Knowledge
Man with Encyclopedic Knowledge
 
Posts: 5370
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:49 am
Location: schnitzel circuit

Re: Abstaining from alcohol.

Postby tmidgett on Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:11 am

jimmy spako wrote:Regarding AA, I don't know whether it is fair to say it has a poor success rate. Is it low or poor?


It's free, and often it's the only game in town. People also get pushed into it in all sorts of ways. I mean, some courts mandate people go to AA for drinking and driving, which is kind of insane and probably almost never works.

No records, no intake, no enrollment, so there's really nothing to base anything on.

I remember that Atlantic article pretty well. Anyone who calls AA an "empire" has some misconceptions to work thru.

Elsewhere in there: "a 31 percent success rate at best, a five to 10 percent success rate at worst"

Hahaha! Pretty big diff!

I don't really give a shit what people say about it, though.

Drunks are all the same. Oh I'm not gonna do AA it's a cult. I have a problem with God stuff, or 12-step is bullshit. The path from real active alcoholism to sobriety usually ends up involving serious outpatient work, which for most people means AA ('cause it's free).

Full disclosure: my little brother is one of those people. Coming up on eight years sober and running meetings, sponsoring people or stepping up when their sponsors aren't available. His partner too. Essentially he volunteers every day to try to keep people on track and be there for them after stabilising his own life.


I probably know forty people well who are sober with AA's help. None of them are in love with it or anything. It just helped 'em stop is all.

Some still go to meetings, some don't. My dad has been sober for thirty-eight years, went a lot for several years, basically never goes anymore. No point.

Worth nothing that his recovery, which happened about four years before I started drinking, is absolutely 100% the reason mine was so basic. I just stopped--zero meetings, zero repercussions, zero anything--because I had AA in my life very early on, the only time I was ever exposed to it directly.
User avatar
tmidgett
Present-day God
Present-day God
 
Posts: 9417
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:30 pm

Re: Abstaining from alcohol.

Postby catwoman on Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:43 am

Hey all, here's an update, in my adventures in abstaining.

I got through the 30-day "alcohol experiment" (October) just fine. Treating it like a "let's see what happens, let's see if I can do this" experiment wasn't as dreadful as I feared, although I can't say I felt like a completely new and different person, either. Less fuzzy, maybe a bit more cheerful, a little more productive and hopeful.

November, first couple weeks I was still abstaining, but at some point just decided I wanted to see if I could have "a couple" drinks only, maybe a couple days a week. Moderation has not been completely successful for me, so I'm going to regroup. When I drove out of town for Thanksgiving dinner, I had a single beer, and one glass of wine, and I wasn't wanting more, because I knew I had to drive back home in a couple hours. So, seems like if I'm with others, I can moderate, and if I have to drive, I can moderate. But left at home with my cats and the TV/radio as company, not so good. Not so much as before, but I see it's still pretty easy for one cocktail to turn into 3 or 4, a glass of wine can turn into almost a whole bottle.

It's a work in progress, but not quite where I'd like to be. Next step is to really figure out if there is ANY situation where I can moderate, or if I need to abstain completely.
User avatar
catwoman
took picture of naked guy
took picture of naked guy
 
Posts: 1199
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:33 am
Location: Square of Logan within the City of Wind

Re: Abstaining from alcohol.

Postby Boombats on Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:51 am

Hey, it's super important to be honest with yourself, and it seems like you are!
Escape Rope / Blxck Onion / Black Mesa
warmowski wrote:Fire back, absolutely, always and forever no matter how much it blows Andy's mind.
User avatar
Boombats
Analingus Eggnog
 
Posts: 21296
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:31 am

Re: Abstaining from alcohol.

Postby tmidgett on Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:01 pm

Boombats wrote:Hey, it's super important to be honest with yourself, and it seems like you are!


Yep.

Very common, also, to come back to it and see if "just one" or "just two" works. Maybe sometimes it does.

If one *keeps thinking* in those terms--"I only had one" or "I had a few too many"--that's usually a sign that someone doesn't process alcohol normally. Most people don't got to count, really, b/c they don't drink enough to have to do that.

Then the question is exactly the one you pose: is it worth trying to moderate, with whatever risk/reward that entails, or do I just stop and not have to deal with it? At that point, I dunno, i think the latter starts to seem like a relief to a lot of people.

very best to you, catwoman!
User avatar
tmidgett
Present-day God
Present-day God
 
Posts: 9417
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:30 pm

Re: Abstaining from alcohol.

Postby Pasta on Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:32 pm

tmidgett wrote:
Boombats wrote:Hey, it's super important to be honest with yourself, and it seems like you are!


If one *keeps thinking* in those terms--"I only had one" or "I had a few too many"--that's usually a sign that someone doesn't process alcohol normally. Most people don't got to count, really, b/c they don't drink enough to have to do that.

Then the question is exactly the one you pose: is it worth trying to moderate, with whatever risk/reward that entails, or do I just stop and not have to deal with it? At that point, I dunno, i think the latter starts to seem like a relief to a lot of people.


Very well put. I have zero interest in ever drinking alcohol again. Enough hiding. Enough damage. (That's directed at me, no one else. )

I thought that AA was total bullshit, until I started going to meetings. I'm also attending Recovery Dharma meetings. Primarily because, as someone raised a Buddhist, it is the only reference that I have to spirituality. Nothing has been said about "willpower" being the secret. Really just the opposite. No one has forced any dogma down my throat. But, I have realized that I am not unique. And, much like with this PRF thing, that sense of community, is proving valuable, as I take the next steps in my life.
RSMurphy wrote:Everything I enjoy about metal: heavy, cool riffs, hooks, expressive vocals.
User avatar
Pasta
Fucking Survivor....Fuck Cancer
 
Posts: 3257
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:11 pm
Location: Doom Town

Re: Abstaining from alcohol.

Postby oZZma on Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:44 am



Good to hear he's making it.
vade retro Santana
User avatar
oZZma
ralph wiggums
ralph wiggums
 
Posts: 745
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:57 am
Location: Italy

Re: Abstaining from alcohol.

Postby mrcancelled on Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:04 pm

Pasta wrote:
tmidgett wrote:
Boombats wrote:Hey, it's super important to be honest with yourself, and it seems like you are!


If one *keeps thinking* in those terms--"I only had one" or "I had a few too many"--that's usually a sign that someone doesn't process alcohol normally. Most people don't got to count, really, b/c they don't drink enough to have to do that.

Then the question is exactly the one you pose: is it worth trying to moderate, with whatever risk/reward that entails, or do I just stop and not have to deal with it? At that point, I dunno, i think the latter starts to seem like a relief to a lot of people.


Very well put. I have zero interest in ever drinking alcohol again. Enough hiding. Enough damage. (That's directed at me, no one else. )

I thought that AA was total bullshit, until I started going to meetings. I'm also attending Recovery Dharma meetings. Primarily because, as someone raised a Buddhist, it is the only reference that I have to spirituality. Nothing has been said about "willpower" being the secret. Really just the opposite. No one has forced any dogma down my throat. But, I have realized that I am not unique. And, much like with this PRF thing, that sense of community, is proving valuable, as I take the next steps in my life.


I'll have to check out Recovery Dharma. If you're into Buddhist-oriented meetings you might also like Refuge Recovery. There's a pretty well established network (for lack of a better term) in Chicago with a good assortment of meetings, I always really enjoyed them. I need to start getting back to going.
mrcancelled
tired of birds
tired of birds
 
Posts: 1138
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:04 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Abstaining from alcohol.

Postby Pasta on Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:24 am

^ Recovery Dharma is the current out growth of Refuge, due to some shit I know nothing about (on purpose), Lots of meetings here in Chi. I'm facilitating one on Saturday mornings, if you're looking to check it out PM me.
RSMurphy wrote:Everything I enjoy about metal: heavy, cool riffs, hooks, expressive vocals.
User avatar
Pasta
Fucking Survivor....Fuck Cancer
 
Posts: 3257
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:11 pm
Location: Doom Town

Re: Abstaining from alcohol.

Postby mrcancelled on Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:57 pm

Pasta wrote:^ Recovery Dharma is the current out growth of Refuge, due to some shit I know nothing about (on purpose), Lots of meetings here in Chi. I'm facilitating one on Saturday mornings, if you're looking to check it out PM me.


Oh jeeze. I read about this briefly just now--this all must've come out shortly before I stopped going a while back. Yikes. Well, RD sounds cool--I'll send ya a PM.
mrcancelled
tired of birds
tired of birds
 
Posts: 1138
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:04 pm
Location: Chicago

PreviousNext

Return to Crap / Not Crap

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 12 guests