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Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Boombats on Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:59 am

They both look like so much fun
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Andrew. on Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:05 am

It's funny how Z spent years valorizing and defending communism, Lenin, revolution, etc -- mostly just to provoke liberals and social democrats and make a name for himself -- but more recently and when on stage w Peterson, he's like, what we need is regulated capitalism and a return to old-fashioned morality, decent manners, Judeo-Christian pessimism, and cultural assimilation for non-Westerners (and not political correctness under any circumstances of course!).

Btw, (former?) PRFer Sam Warren Meill wrote a Lacanian critique of Zizek's transphobia and Zizek responded in print -- but to a Reddit comment rather than Meill's actual critique. It's all Lacanese though, so it's incomprehensible to most people.

https://differentcolouredhats.wordpress ... out-stuff/
https://differentcolouredhats.wordpress ... r/samwm27/
https://differentcolouredhats.wordpress ... sexuality/

And here are some critiques of Zizek's racist anti-refugee shit:
https://roarmag.org/essays/zizek-refuge ... -critique/
http://inthesetimes.com/article/18615/i ... avoj-zizek
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Clyde on Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:43 am

Zizek's transphobia needs to fuck off yesterday. Man, some of that dude's takes come across like Bill Maher on Hegel.
This is taken out of context, but not by much. The full clip I saw was even more embarrassing if I recall but I can't find it. Real edgy, edgy stuff.



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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Andrew. on Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:22 pm

Clyde wrote:Zizek's transphobia needs to fuck off yesterday. Man, some of that dude's takes come across like Bill Maher on Hegel.
This is taken out of context, but not by much. The full clip I saw was even more embarrassing if I recall but I can't find it. Real edgy, edgy stuff.



Zizek's famous use of jokes as pedagogy parallels his use of anecdotes and evidentiary claims featuring anonymous ethnic and racialized others. His talks are riddled w him saying "I have an immigrant friend who says..." "You know I was in Minnesota once and a Native American guy he told me they prefer to be called Indians..." "You know, my Arab friends, they tell me I'm right about this..."

But he never cites or even seems to read canonical anti-colonial thinkers and theorists, let alone trans theorists, etc. He's a major intellectual and philosopher when it comes to Hegel and Lacan, but what he's best known for is contemporary cultural critique where he strings together canonical and pop culture references (Kierkegaard, Chesterton, TS Elliott, Beckett, Hitchcock, Kung Fu Panda! The Matrix!) w stuff he just pulls out of his ass about a black friend who says it's cool for white people to use the N-word or whatever.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby addley on Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:59 pm

I read trans theory! I am a trans theorist, a trans trans theorist. So hop on the trans trans train and post something specific you think is transphobic in Zizek's thought, so I can possibly give you a non-hateboner reading. Well, unless you'd prefer to continue to talk past me of course, and Stay Hard. Other trans people seem to appreciate it, at least. Generally my trans friends like Zizek - mein gott! Sorry to do a whoopsie and mention my friends and personal experiemce tho, I understand how very bad that is.

Didn't Sam say at the end maybe they were talking past each other? A convenient detail to leave out.. Though he still posts, so he's free to come disagree!
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby llllllllllllllllllllllll on Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:10 pm

I like Zizek, too. I go down rabbit holes sometimes with him but I am not about to try to talk theory.

Anybody have an audio link of the debate? I saw it was on YouTube but would prefer something I can listen to at work.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Andrew. on Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:30 pm

addley wrote:I read trans theory! I am a trans theorist, a trans trans theorist. So hop on the trans trans train and post something specific you think is transphobic in Zizek's thought, so I can possibly give you a non-hateboner reading. Well, unless you'd prefer to continue to talk past me of course, and Stay Hard. Other trans people seem to appreciate it, at least. Generally my trans friends like Zizek - mein gott! Sorry to do a whoopsie and mention my friends and personal experiemce tho, I understand how very bad that is.

Didn't Sam say at the end maybe they were talking past each other? A convenient detail to leave out.. Though he still posts, so he's free to come disagree!


The main piece associated w Z's transphobia that I know about is the one Sam responded to at length in the links I just posted (which include links to Z's piece and his follow up). I didn't conveniently leave anything out: I posted three links to articles by Sam, an unknown academic who was smeared by Zizek without Zizek actually engaging w Sam's critique itself. Super unethical and shitty of Zizek, but par for the course. He hates teaching and students, he constantly appeals to unnamed Arab/Black/immigrant friends to bolster his arguments, he's happy to just make shit up about murdered Indigenous women if it suits his colonial argumentation, etc.

Sam in the third link I posted:

I was disappointed to see that, instead of engaging with my Lacanian critique, Žižek chose to respond to a single Reddit comment about his article, so that he could dishonestly claim that he has “searched in vain for a minimum of argumentation,” only to find that “[t]he attackers mostly just make fun of a position, which is simply not mine.” While he has retreated somewhat from some of his previous arguments, I still find many problems with this newest article, though I cannot really respond to him until he is willing to reply to those who pose a challenge to his conclusions on their own terms. Yes, Slavoj, one can understand what you are saying and disagree with you.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby addley on Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:19 pm

Zizek did respond to him

Before Žižek published his response to me, I was in the early stages of drafting an article on Lacanian discourse theory, and the fundamental failure of communication inscribed therein. I think Žižek would agree with Deleuze, that debate is a format which is not, finally, suited to philosophical discourse, a discourse filled with self-doubt and antithetical to the clear, boldly-proclaimed oppositions of a parliament or a debate club. I have the feeling that Žižek did not really respond to me, and that I have not really responded to him. As Lacanians, we both know that there is something that will forever elude our discourse. We can even perhaps speak of a “narcissism of small differences”, animating a dispute between two people who, in the end, share an affinity for this obscure, much-derided theorist. Does our correspondence confirm our master’s theories that the truth will always remain, at best, ‘half-said’? And if Lacan is indeed our master, what are we to say of the surplus-jouissance he produces, the jouissance which is precisely the truth of my discourse when I ‘hysterically’ question the master Lacanian, Žižek? The impossibility/impotence here is unavoidable. If we are, as speaking subjects, inescapably doomed to failures of communication, failures of sexuality, failures of identity, if we are, in the final analysis, subjected to such a fate, well, I am in no hurry to deconstruct someone’s desire to use a certain toilet. We all have our symptom.


Zizek isn't transphobic. I understand he makes tasteless jokes, and he picked the wrong example to talk about his issues with postmodern ideology - but I've spent an inordinate amount of time trying to parse Zizek's comments about LGBT culture, and they're pretty positive, and in fact I find his and his colleague Alenka Zupancic's theories incredibly useful to queer theory. NewDarkAge's response to him I thought was very cool, and I learned a lot, and have in fact gone through all the suggested reading associated with those articles.

Pick any bit you want, I'll go through it with you. But no, I'm not going to re-respond to an entire article.

llllllllllllllllllllllll wrote:Anybody have an audio link of the debate? I saw it was on YouTube but would prefer something I can listen to at work.


I don't, just the youtubes ):
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Andrew. on Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:04 pm

addley wrote:Zizek did respond to him


Sam said Zizek's response was dishonest and foreclosed debate. Right there in the quote in my last post.

Pick any bit you want, I'll go through it with you. But no, I'm not going to re-respond to an entire article.


I'm not sure what gave you the impression I wanted to go through Zizek's thoughts on gender and sexuality with you. I posted Sam's critique bc he's a PRFer who wrote an intellectually serious critique of Zizek on the topic and some of us are discussing Z's shortcomings in the context of the Peterson debate.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby addley on Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:16 pm

Why do you just post articles at me? Why don't you engage me?
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Angus Jung on Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:01 am

addley wrote:So hop on the trans trans train and post something specific you think is transphobic in Zizek's thought, so I can possibly give you a non-hateboner reading.

Zizek's essay "The Sexual Is Political" got a lot of push-back from trans theorists of color; here is just one example.

Žižek ignores the fact that we can’t think the gender binary outside of the context of racial slavery and colonialism within which it was forged. Žižek also leaves unthought the entire scope of trans studies in general and trans of color critique in particular. He ignores the ways in which the gender binary is imbricated in racial slavery and colonization, and he perpetuates an epistemic erasure of the entire scope of trans studies in general, and queer and trans of color critique especially. He also enacts a historical erasure of queer and trans left theory and praxis — especially of color — as eroticopolitical worlding. How does one manage to write about trans subjectivity with such assumed authority while ignoring the voices of trans theorists (academics and activists) entirely — especially when the very issues of psychoanalysis and neoliberalism he discusses have already been subjects of scholarly inquiry in trans studies itself? Finally, Žižek never seems to consider that the very object of critique — such as neoliberal trans subjectivity — is actually what trans left movements have been organizing against and beyond for many years.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby addley on Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:37 pm

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't trying to overwrite my opinion by invoking words from people a step down the privilege ladder because you know that I'm white, which of course would be crass and shitty. The way some people of lesser character try to weaponize identity, especially identity that is not theirs, I think speaks to maybe why Zizek makes statements that are read as being anti-PC in the exact way Peterson and reactionaries are, as if Zizek is saying use your penis toilet and stop it with the pronoun stuff (he doesn't).

Again, I'm not going to tackle a whole giant article for you, I'm going to cherry pick. If you think by doing this I'm skipping some crucial piece of written violence, feel free to quote it.

Segregated toilet doors are today at the center of a big legal and ideological struggle. On March 29, 2016, a group of 80 predominantly Silicon Valley-based business executives, headlined by Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg and Apple CEO Tim Cook, signed a letter to North Carolina Governor Pat McCrory denouncing a law that prohibits transgender people from using public facilities intended for the opposite sex.


Well lets be holistic for a second, Angus. By virtue of its proximity to tech people, Zizek questions the centering of the bathroom debate, while you question giving poor people free money. Please explain the difference to me.

The vision of social relations that sustains transgenderism is the so-called postgenderism: a social, political and cultural movement whose adherents advocate a voluntary abolition of gender, rendered possible by recent scientific progress in biotechnology and reproductive technologies.

It will eliminate the crucial distinction that sustains all subsequent social hierarchies and exploitations.


Sam has already made a good point that this is not the de-facto belief of all transgender people.
However, to ignore that this as an idea exists is just wrong. I see this as a theory literally all the time, whether people really "believe it" or not (Niels Bohr's horseshoe, and so on and so on). Both transgender people and Zizek believe there are unavoidable deadlocks in sexuality. "Gender is a fuck" is not so far from the "aporia of sexual difference". Though as Sam has also pointed out, I think Zizek makes mistakes conflating sexual and gender positions.

However arguing that Zizek is stepping into a theoretical space he can only clumsily tread in is one thing, that what he's saying is transphobia is another. I don't see that argument being made in your quote.

Finally, Žižek never seems to consider that the very object of critique — such as neoliberal trans subjectivity — is actually what trans left movements have been organizing against and beyond for many years.


Well said, but where's the transphobia?

The first thing to note here is that transgenderism goes together with the general tendency in today’s predominant ideology to reject any particular “belonging” and to celebrate the “fluidification” of all forms of identity.


Ah here's the transphobia, where he accuses transgender people of things he thinks most people do.

What is Zizek's bathroom solution?

Should we not do the same with toilets? Since no classification can satisfy all identities, should we not add to the two usual gender slots (MEN, WOMEN) a door for GENERAL GENDER? Is this not the only way to inscribe into an order of symbolic differences its constitutive antagonism? Lacan already pointed out that the “formula” of the sexual relationship as impossible/real is 1+1+a, i.e., the two sexes plus the “bone in the throat” that prevents its translation into a symbolic difference. This third element does not stand for what is excluded from the domain of difference; it stands, instead, for (the real of) difference as such.


How dare Zizek think of enbies. What a jerk!

By the way, where I live, the toilet debate is over. Do you know the resolution? In most restaurants and such, there are two restrooms: a Man/Woman (or Neutral) and a Woman one. What is the message here you think? Here's how I read it: here is a bathroom for real women, and here is a modified male bathroom for you gender people, which are most likely weird men. In some of the more progressive spaces, they are both Man/Woman. Yay. I'm neither. I just use bathrooms where you stand up, and call it a day. I'd prefer them to have gotten on the Zizek plan, myself. Since he agrees trans women should use the woman's bathroom, I have yet to see a real issue.

All ribbing aside, I'm definitely down to go through any specific statement you think is weird Zizek has made. I agree with Che Gossett that Zizek is ignorant of trans theory, though like most general category of theory, it is not a monolith. Funny too, how if you really look at what he's saying with your defenses down, he comes to many of the same conclusions.
Last edited by addley on Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Meme Mearest on Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:53 pm

einzig means no others, but also no others...surely perception does not work like this.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby llllllllllllllllllllllll on Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:12 pm



Can’t see the gif out in the swamp but Sam Kriss is writing on his blog again. I like some of his stuff but his writing on the JP/Zizek debate went over my head. May interest others here.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby llllllllllllllllllllllll on Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:21 pm

Angela Nagle on Aufhebunga Bunga discussing the debate. Good stuff.

https://aufhebungabunga.podbean.com/e/6 ... ela-nagle/
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Gramsci on Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:40 am

No thanks. Libertarian hot takes are dull as shit
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby seanurban on Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:35 pm

llllllllllllllllllllllll wrote:I like Zizek, too. I go down rabbit holes sometimes with him but I am not about to try to talk theory.

Anybody have an audio link of the debate? I saw it was on YouTube but would prefer something I can listen to at work.

I see a podcast called ziz231 happiness. Haven’t listened to it yet.

Edit: well, that seems to be the one.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby rayword45 on Mon May 13, 2019 1:33 pm

left cant memeImage

oh and to tack on ahahahahaha https://mobile.twitter.com/BenjaminPDix ... 0447263746

I equate JP to Shapiro cuz same audience + shapiro should never have a C/NC thread
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Wood Goblin on Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:45 pm

Peterson is apparently in some kind of ICU in Russia (!) being treated for addiction to/withdrawal from benzos. The entire story is really fucking weird and involves quack diets and did I mention Russia?

I guess he missed his own rule about getting one’s own house in order before trying to change the world.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby askii on Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:54 pm

Wood Goblin wrote:Peterson is apparently in some kind of ICU in Russia (!) being treated for addiction to/withdrawal from benzos. The entire story is really fucking weird and involves quack diets and did I mention Russia?

I guess he missed his own rule about getting one’s own house in order before trying to change the world.

I thought the drug of choice for mythopoeic fascists was benzedrine, not benzodiazepines.
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