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2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

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Elizabeth Warren

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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Andrew. on Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:17 pm

llllllllllllllllllllllll wrote:I don’t really follow the argument in Kathleen Grier’s writing above

Geier unfriended and blocked me after I challenged her take on Warren's Native DNA stupidity at the time. Geier was saying everyone needed to shut up about it because "normal people" don't care about it. I was like that's a cool way to talk about Native Americans, as abnormal people who don't matter. She deleted her post and then deleted me. Lol.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby n.c. on Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:02 am

if the primary were tomorrow, i'd vote for Elizabeth Warren.

because i think she has clearly articulated, detailed plans to give the working class substantive breaks that will make real difference in our lives.

student loan forgiveness alone would act as high impact stimulus to families like mine. where would the extra money go? home repairs. bam.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby placeholder on Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:16 am

NOT CRAP, despite some major gaffes and despite her thinking capitalism is something that can be repaired.

She's the only candidate other than Sanders who I'm enthusiastic about.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Pasta on Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:16 pm

Early jokes aside, I am leaning HEAVILY towards Warren. I really like her policy.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby total_douche on Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:58 pm

Andrew. wrote:
llllllllllllllllllllllll wrote:I don’t really follow the argument in Kathleen Grier’s writing above

Geier unfriended and blocked me after I challenged her take on Warren's Native DNA stupidity at the time. Geier was saying everyone needed to shut up about it because "normal people" don't care about it. I was like that's a cool way to talk about Native Americans, as abnormal people who don't matter. She deleted her post and then deleted me. Lol.

A white liberal not giving half a shit about Native Americans despite society's ills hitting them harder than everyone else? Nahhhh. That'd never happen.

Anyway, while I think the Native thing might require some deep introspection on her part (and it seems like she's reflected on it some already), I'm still liking Warren a lot lately. I wouldn't feel so conflicted about voting for her like I would with Biden or like I did with Clinton.

Maybe she could do something substantial for the indigenous people in this country if she gets elected to begin some kind of restorative process. But I'm not Native in any cultural sense (I'd expect minute traces in a DNA test because that's just part of being Mexican), so I'm not sure what people who are might think about that, or even if there's anything she can do to repair that relationship. I think that reaching out to some tribal leaders might be a good start.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Andrew. on Wed May 01, 2019 4:41 pm

total_douche wrote:
Andrew. wrote:
llllllllllllllllllllllll wrote:I don’t really follow the argument in Kathleen Grier’s writing above

Geier unfriended and blocked me after I challenged her take on Warren's Native DNA stupidity at the time. Geier was saying everyone needed to shut up about it because "normal people" don't care about it. I was like that's a cool way to talk about Native Americans, as abnormal people who don't matter. She deleted her post and then deleted me. Lol.

A white liberal not giving half a shit about Native Americans despite society's ills hitting them harder than everyone else? Nahhhh. That'd never happen.

Anyway, while I think the Native thing might require some deep introspection on her part (and it seems like she's reflected on it some already), I'm still liking Warren a lot lately. I wouldn't feel so conflicted about voting for her like I would with Biden or like I did with Clinton.

Maybe she could do something substantial for the indigenous people in this country if she gets elected to begin some kind of restorative process. But I'm not Native in any cultural sense (I'd expect minute traces in a DNA test because that's just part of being Mexican), so I'm not sure what people who are might think about that, or even if there's anything she can do to repair that relationship. I think that reaching out to some tribal leaders might be a good start.


It just shows how clueless Warren -- like everyone else in her milieu -- is about settler colonialism. She seems to get the slavery thing more. But then she was a Republican until what, the 90s, and then she learned better? She's capable of pivotal growth in her worldview obviously, and very smart and principled, but a personal presidential run is literally the worst possible circumstances to make up ground on understanding the U.S. as a genocidal settler-colonial project, not least bc she's shitty on foreign policy generally including Israel (speaking of settler colonialism).

Her domestic "policy blitz" is very welcome imho but she doesn't seem to see the bigger analytical picture (hence her imperial tendencies, her belief in accountable capitalism, and her personal distance from social movement and labor struggles throughout her life).
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby n.c. on Thu May 02, 2019 6:04 am

dp
Last edited by n.c. on Thu May 02, 2019 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby n.c. on Thu May 02, 2019 6:05 am

Andrew. wrote:
total_douche wrote:
Andrew. wrote:
llllllllllllllllllllllll wrote:I don’t really follow the argument in Kathleen Grier’s writing above

Geier unfriended and blocked me after I challenged her take on Warren's Native DNA stupidity at the time. Geier was saying everyone needed to shut up about it because "normal people" don't care about it. I was like that's a cool way to talk about Native Americans, as abnormal people who don't matter. She deleted her post and then deleted me. Lol.

A white liberal not giving half a shit about Native Americans despite society's ills hitting them harder than everyone else? Nahhhh. That'd never happen.

Anyway, while I think the Native thing might require some deep introspection on her part (and it seems like she's reflected on it some already), I'm still liking Warren a lot lately. I wouldn't feel so conflicted about voting for her like I would with Biden or like I did with Clinton.

Maybe she could do something substantial for the indigenous people in this country if she gets elected to begin some kind of restorative process. But I'm not Native in any cultural sense (I'd expect minute traces in a DNA test because that's just part of being Mexican), so I'm not sure what people who are might think about that, or even if there's anything she can do to repair that relationship. I think that reaching out to some tribal leaders might be a good start.


It just shows how clueless Warren -- like everyone else in her milieu -- is about settler colonialism. She seems to get the slavery thing more. But then she was a Republican until what, the 90s, and then she learned better? She's capable of pivotal growth in her worldview obviously, and very smart and principled, but a personal presidential run is literally the worst possible circumstances to make up ground on understanding the U.S. as a genocidal settler-colonial project, not least bc she's shitty on foreign policy generally including Israel (speaking of settler colonialism).

Her domestic "policy blitz" is very welcome imho but she doesn't seem to see the bigger analytical picture (hence her imperial tendencies, her belief in accountable capitalism, and her personal distance from social movement and labor struggles throughout her life).


this is some perfect being the enemy of the good shit right here. i mean, this is america, a hissing nest of spoiled, entitled, pudgy, pockmarked cancer bags.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby llllllllllllllllllllllll on Thu May 02, 2019 6:40 am

Liberals that reference policy when preferring Warren over Sanders still expect a lot out of top-down politics despite the last twenty years being an indication that there isn’t anything for you in the long term. Without an organized working class to hold the line, any gains a progressive liberal would be able to make could be turned over by the next Republican, or even watered down by (if history is an indictator) the next Democratic administration.
There’s a lot of talk about Bernie not being much different then Warren, but the push to build a broader movement of workers - at an international level even - is a big one, with many long term political goals at stake. In 2019 we can’t afford to expect as much out of liberals who make everyone’s participation in national politics to be about voting for the president every four years and then going away. This is significant enough to make the difference between policy wonks with good intentions and others, like Bernie and AOC, greater than people claim.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby n.c. on Thu May 02, 2019 10:20 am

i can't for the life of me unravel that ^
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby llllllllllllllllllllllll on Thu May 02, 2019 10:47 am

I’m talking about how there is only one candidate with goals that include getting working people everywhere to band together in order to democratize the economy.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Boombats on Thu May 02, 2019 12:29 pm

I thought it was pretty clear. Sanders is very different from Warren. Participatory democracy as it stands is an illusion. The working class needs to organize and pool its power because this is the only way to affect change.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby n.c. on Thu May 02, 2019 1:28 pm

okay, let me see if i follow....

there is little difference, policy-wise between warren and sanders, and we all agree that just because we like the stated policy proposals of a presidential candidate, the president isn't just going to make these things happen, that takes a deeper investment in the legislative branch.

but bernie, he's building a coalition of working people to affect real change.

is there some sort of graph where you can quantify these claims? what are the point systems involved in rating someones motivation of working people.

excuse my cynicism. but i think y'all are being a bit too internet for me.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby llllllllllllllllllllllll on Thu May 02, 2019 3:41 pm

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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby warmowski on Fri May 03, 2019 5:47 am

n.c. wrote:okay, let me see if i follow....
there is little difference, policy-wise between warren and sanders,


On the contrary, there is substantive difference -- one is a former-Republican market reformer, the other is a never-Republican market-demoter and market-ender. It's just that in the context of a business-run society it is fair to see them as fellow travelers in their antagonism to the rule of the boardroom.

n.c. wrote:and we all agree that just because we like the stated policy proposals of a presidential candidate, the president isn't just going to make these things happen, that takes a deeper investment in the legislative branch.


Right, and Bernie has way more legislation to his credit, which is what you'd expect from a much longer career in Congress. They don't call him the King of Amendments for nothing.

n.c. wrote:but bernie, he's building a coalition of working people to affect real change.


Of course he is, and has been for decades. It's working people who benefit from his legislation, media appearances and his proposals. Such as here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, or here.


n.c. wrote:is there some sort of graph where you can quantify these claims? what are the point systems involved in rating someones motivation of working people.


https://berniebag.com/

If anybody's got an alternative explanation for where 1m donations about 20 bucks at a time came from in 52 days that doesn't identify working people or persons of modest means as the source, I'm all ears.

-r
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby n.c. on Fri May 03, 2019 6:25 am

llllllllllllllllllllllll wrote:whatever, bitch


i know, it was a pretty dickish answer.

i donated more to bernie's last run than i have ever donated to a political campaign. i don't debate much that's being said here. where you lose me is when i hear that my first and second choices are very different.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby n.c. on Fri May 03, 2019 6:40 am

warmowski wrote:
n.c. wrote:okay, let me see if i follow....
there is little difference, policy-wise between warren and sanders,


On the contrary, there is substantive difference -- one is a former-Republican market reformer, the other is a never-Republican market-demoter and market-ender. It's just that in the context of a business-run society it is fair to see them as fellow travelers in their antagonism to the rule of the boardroom.

n.c. wrote:and we all agree that just because we like the stated policy proposals of a presidential candidate, the president isn't just going to make these things happen, that takes a deeper investment in the legislative branch.


Right, and Bernie has way more legislation to his credit, which is what you'd expect from a much longer career in Congress. They don't call him the King of Amendments for nothing.

n.c. wrote:but bernie, he's building a coalition of working people to affect real change.


Of course he is, and has been for decades. It's working people who benefit from his legislation, media appearances and his proposals. Such as here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, or here.


n.c. wrote:is there some sort of graph where you can quantify these claims? what are the point systems involved in rating someones motivation of working people.


https://berniebag.com/

If anybody's got an alternative explanation for where 1m donations about 20 bucks at a time came from in 52 days that doesn't identify working people or persons of modest means as the source, I'm all ears.

-r



taking their money isn't building a coalition.

one is a former republican, one is an independent who is co-opting the democratic label. at current i don't hear them disagree much.

i mean, there are lots of reasons that someone might have once been a republican. it's not a stain that shows through policies that are directed straight at porr, working people people like me.

bernie has lots of legislative achievements, no argument here. i was stumping for him last time, but he is old as fuck at this point, weak on guns, and.... um, old as fuck.

the primary is a ways away, as of this morning bernie beats the fuck up on trump and warren ties him, so that might sway me toward bernie alone, but beto does even better and i don't think i'll vote for him on the basis of a poll.

i have written a business plan for a cooperative business, i have taken two different multi-weekend seminars on cooperatives. i can recite the seven principals of cooperatives back and forth. i'm pretty fucking into bottom up empowerment of working people.

but you're losing me somewhere along the way and i think it's the point at which the woman gets compared to the man... i'm sure that's a can of worms i don't want to open, but what the hey, it's the internet and this board is a fucking sausage fest.

smash the patriarchy.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby n.c. on Fri May 03, 2019 6:44 am

...and what the fuck? in one breath you're saying the president has little power to effect policy, and in the next you think bernie is going to END MARKETS? as president?

you think that ending markets is a political platform that can win against trump?

what the fuck are we talking about?
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby n.c. on Fri May 03, 2019 7:10 am

...and if you want to empower working people - educate them! you want to know where trump came from? 40 years of teaching to the test! and from what i hear warren has the stronger proposals to forgive student debt and make college more accessible.

sorry to be on a tear this morning. must have been a strong pot of coffee. :)
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby warmowski on Fri May 03, 2019 8:03 am

n.c. wrote:...and what the fuck? in one breath you're saying the president has little power to effect policy, and in the next you think bernie is going to END MARKETS? as president?


First, I never said the President has little power to effect policy, I said I agreed with you that legislative capability is essential to effecting policy, and then I added that he's literally a giant in that department.

Second, ending, not reforming but ending, some markets, yes -- such as health insurance. Again, I'm absolutely not attacking Warren, or you, I'm pointing out differences between the two raised by what you've (effectively) asked.

n.c. wrote:you think that ending markets is a political platform that can win against trump?

what the fuck are we talking about?


Yes - ending the market for private health insurance can absolutely win against the guy who promised the effective result of ending that market -- that is, quality health insurance for everybody -- but instead delivered jack shit. There are literally millions of working Trump voters who have since '16 been stuck with medical financial hardship who know very well this shit has to change.

n.c. wrote: i was stumping for him last time, but he is old as fuck at this point, weak on guns, and.... um, old as fuck.


When I look at and listen to this guy, I see him running circles mentally around some Senate creatures who are in their fifties. I'm not sure how much that has to do with his health as opposed to the low caliber of elected representatives on the Hill, but bottom line, I'm fine with his old ass. You don't have to be!

n.c. wrote:but you're losing me somewhere along the way and i think it's the point at which the woman gets compared to the man... i'm sure that's a can of worms i don't want to open, but what the hey, it's the internet and this board is a fucking sausage fest.


You're absolutely right about the sausage fest. This being the internet, and because we only kind of know each other a little, I can just as easily wonder aloud if you're just not into Jews. I won't do that, because doing that is easy, and easy dismissals are usually horseshit. I mean, I'm certain that you, as a fellow fan of cooperative enterprise in this capitalist terminal-dive hellworld, know that lasting things are hard to build, and I'd rather understand you in a lasting way than ascribe a bunch of nasty shit to you. We are allies. As an ally, I gotta tell you, I have never had any problem with women *as women* in elected office. My wife has been a candidate, and I her operative, for one thing.

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