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2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

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Elizabeth Warren

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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Andrew. on Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:52 am

llllllllllllllllllllllll wrote:Are you referring to this thread? The whole thing is insane.


"The first woman of color at Harvard Law."

What a shameless creep.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby askii on Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:48 pm

tmidgett wrote:Plus maybe once a generation we get a shot at having a President who is motivated and unimpeachably left-wing.

It'd be a shame to pass that up.

Andrew. wrote:One of the peculiar historical things about Bernie is that he is the most doggedly leftwing primary candidate in ages if not ever AND he is arguably the best suited to defeat the sitting POTUS. How often do you get that combination?

*AND* at precisely the moment when, thanks to the laws of physics / chemistry / biology, we really only have one shot left.

Lots of rational reasons why I'm pulling for Bernie, most of them discussed in this thread. But if I'm honest, his emotional appeal has a lot to do with this collision of do-or-die historical moment and unicorn of a chance to mount a (possibly) adequate response to it. Which makes this primary even more excruciating than it would be if the world weren't literally on fire.

tmidgett wrote:Extremely apprehensive if she gets the nom, even more so than with Biden, who would at least be a "we get what we deserve" kind of loss, not a "the Left can't win" kind of loss.

Hadn't thought of it this way before, but Warren's base, and her appeal to that base, are McGovernesque. And McGovern became the generational whipping boy for why the Left can't win, even though (as Krystal Ball says re Warren) a Left-populist strategy hadn't actually been tried. (McGovern Commission marginalized unions, etc.)

Of course, worrying about the narrative if we lose is like worrying about how you'll look at your funeral.

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I also don't buy the line that Bernie would govern more effectively because he will have created a mass movement that he can mobilize. That's ahistorical nonsense. Mass movements are not built that quickly and they aren't built around a single candidate. Which is not to say Sanders hasn't been a hugely important catalyst for American leftist politics, he obviously has been. But I thought it supposed to liberals who cared too much about the presidency, leftists were about building infrastructure ground-up, not through a cult of personality.

I agree with a fair bit of this post (Sanders and Warren are certainly closer than either is to the rest of the field, and some of the anti-Warren rhetoric on the Left is a bit hyperbolic) and I promise I'm not Bernie Yelling. But I don't think the above is actually what being "Organizer-in-Chief" is all about. He's not just trying to build his own grassroots movement; he's working with existing movements -- with whom he has decades of history, in many cases -- giving them a megaphone, and trying to unite them in a coalition that will have power whether he wins or not. Tons of examples, but one that struck me recently was his appearance at the Climate Strike in Greensboro NC, where he promised not to campaign and didn't; not a word of self-promotion.

Warren, OTOH, is doing something much more like Obama '08 -- except, as I think FM Andrew. pointed out a few pages back, her reassurances to party power brokers suggest that her "movement" would be even less consequential than that.

I should be squarely in Warren's demo, even if she weren't a great senator from my home state. I find her authentic communication style (not the faux-folksy campaign trail one, which makes my teeth hurt) extremely relatable, and I could listen to her analyze the nuances of financial regulation for hours. But I take this as a bad sign for her effectiveness as a leader of the people, not a good one.

Rebecca Traister called Warren "the most professorial presidential candidate ever", but IMO her piece focused on the wrong implication (electability), as opposed to how Warren's professorial worldview shapes her understanding of how "big, structural change" actually comes about.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Andrew. on Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:52 pm

askii wrote:Rebecca Traister called Warren "the most professorial presidential candidate ever", but IMO her piece focused on the wrong implication (electability), as opposed to how Warren's professorial worldview shapes her understanding of how "big, structural change" actually comes about.


Interestingly, Krystal Ball's line works on both the electability front and the theory of change/power front:

Turn away from the Siren song of the Ivy League, and put your trust in the multi-racial working class.


An important aphorism both for beating Trump in a general election and for taking on the super-rich more broadly.

Ball was on Katie Halper and Matt Taibbi's podcast recently, btw.

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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby curry pervert on Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:57 pm

She talks a good talk but I'm not convinced. Saw her interview with Stephen Colbert and though she said the right things, there seemed to be an underlying insincerity about her. Maybe it's because she seems to have stolen all her ideas from Bernie.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby askii on Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:48 pm

Andrew. wrote:Ball was on Katie Halper and Matt Taibbi's podcast recently, btw.

Oh cool, looking forward to watching this. Halper is terrific. As for Krystal Ball, I really like her but I have no idea how she is allowed to exist. I keep waiting for The Hill's security to break into her underground bunker and shut her down live on camera.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby numberthirty on Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:24 am

askii wrote:
Andrew. wrote:Ball was on Katie Halper and Matt Taibbi's podcast recently, btw.

Oh cool, looking forward to watching this. Halper is terrific. As for Krystal Ball, I really like her but I have no idea how she is allowed to exist. I keep waiting for The Hill's security to break into her underground bunker and shut her down live on camera.


While I don't have anything concrete, I tend to suspect that she might have wound up with the goods on someone while she worked for MSNBC.

"Anything Happens To Me, And My Old Shoe Repair Guy Puts It On The Interwebs..." sort of a deal.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby andteater on Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:34 am

numberthirty wrote:
askii wrote:
Andrew. wrote:Ball was on Katie Halper and Matt Taibbi's podcast recently, btw.

Oh cool, looking forward to watching this. Halper is terrific. As for Krystal Ball, I really like her but I have no idea how she is allowed to exist. I keep waiting for The Hill's security to break into her underground bunker and shut her down live on camera.


While I don't have anything concrete, I tend to suspect that she might have wound up with the goods on someone while she worked for MSNBC.

"Anything Happens To Me, And My Old Shoe Repair Guy Puts It On The Interwebs..." sort of a deal.


watching this forum go from an awesome place to talk about music and joke around with people and turn into QAnon for 40 year old dudes who spend $10,000 a year on guitar pedals is so awesome.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby nihil on Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:02 am

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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby andteater on Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:09 am



that is all fine and dandy, but in your honest opinion, if you talked to one hundred random people who were planning on voting in the 2020 election, how many of them would think of Nathan Robinson as opposed to Maury Povich if you mentioned "Current Affairs"
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Ike on Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:21 am

Andrew. wrote:
llllllllllllllllllllllll wrote:Are you referring to this thread? The whole thing is insane.


"The first woman of color at Harvard Law."

What a shameless creep.



Obviously wrong-headed, ill-advised, and thoroughly racist. She's since apologized profusely for this (and the clip is how many years old?).

Later in the thread you cite Matt Taibbi's podcast.

Is he held to the same standard?

https://www.chicagoreader.com/Bleader/a ... ibly-worse

There are many other links one could post here as well. Did he apologize for running roughshod through Moscow in his 20's, raw-doggin' and wildin' out, allegedly with underage people? I don't remember reading where he did.

Please don't read this as an attack, as it isn't the point of this post. I saw that Warren clip floating around this weekend and it smacked so strongly of what so many cannot stand about the Bernie camp (bro culture, hint of bullying, cut-and-dried rhetoric with zero room for debate, meme humor as political rhetoric). Seems like that should be a thing of the past, but it clearly isn't.

We should attempt to use the same playbook for both, candidates and cultural critics alike.

Full disclosure, should the "centrist" knives come out: I donated to old BS's campaign yesterday. His values align with my own most solidly. Warren's are a close second.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby llllllllllllllllllllllll on Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:38 am

Matt Taibbi and Mark Ames aren’t running for president dude. The issue, at least to me, is electability, not some sort of moral high ground. Warren will get eaten alive by the Republicans for that shit.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Ike on Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:43 am

llllllllllllllllllllllll wrote:Matt Taibbi and Mark Ames aren’t running for president dude. The issue, at least to me, is electability, not some sort of moral high ground. Warren will get eaten alive by the Republicans for that shit.



I don't buy that at all. I think that line of thinking is a product of our own respective feedback loops we choose.

BS's age is a far bigger hurdle, in my opinion, to electability. Seems like there's a little more adept approach than "what a horrible monster" with multiple year's old clips of her saying stupid shit.

Which she's admitted and discussed at length.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby llllllllllllllllllllllll on Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:53 am

Was that DNA test really that long ago?
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby andteater on Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:09 am

llllllllllllllllllllllll wrote:Matt Taibbi and Mark Ames aren’t running for president dude. The issue, at least to me, is electability, not some sort of moral high ground. Warren will get eaten alive by the Republicans for that shit.


on the other hand, the Republicans will treat the Socialist Jew with the utmost respect.

you guys are so fucking dumb it hurts to read.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Boombats on Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:20 am

andteater wrote:
llllllllllllllllllllllll wrote:Matt Taibbi and Mark Ames aren’t running for president dude. The issue, at least to me, is electability, not some sort of moral high ground. Warren will get eaten alive by the Republicans for that shit.


on the other hand, the Republicans will treat the Socialist Jew with the utmost respect.

you guys are so fucking dumb it hurts to read.

"The Jew" knows how to roll with the punches. Warren does not.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby nihil on Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:00 pm

andteater wrote:


that is all fine and dandy, but in your honest opinion, if you talked to one hundred random people who were planning on voting in the 2020 election, how many of them would think of Nathan Robinson as opposed to Maury Povich if you mentioned "Current Affairs"



What a goofy thing to say. What does that have to do with anything? It's hard to tell if you're being serious about anything. If you're not, you need to work on your jokes. They're not very funny.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby andteater on Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:51 pm

nihil wrote:
andteater wrote:


that is all fine and dandy, but in your honest opinion, if you talked to one hundred random people who were planning on voting in the 2020 election, how many of them would think of Nathan Robinson as opposed to Maury Povich if you mentioned "Current Affairs"



What a goofy thing to say. What does that have to do with anything? It's hard to tell if you're being serious about anything. If you're not, you need to work on your jokes. They're not very funny.


GAWWWWRSH.

It has everything to do with everything. The election will involve voters. I would guess that 99% of those voters do not share the opinion of Nathan Robinson (not just about Warren, but in general)

i'm not saying that whatever Robinson is saying is not valid. i read it, it seems like the same thing that is being parroted, especially the whole "movement builder vs. 'i have a plan'" concept. i understand his concerns and i know he's being genuine. that being said, i do call bullshit on this:

"Donald Trump promised that America would “never be a socialist country.” Warren stood up and applauded, as Bernie sat and fumed. This was a very clear “Which side are you on?” moment. She was asked whether she was with Bernie Sanders or Donald Trump, and she said Trump."

When has Warren ever said that she isn't a capitalist? She's never said she's a socialist so why would that surprise you?

my point is that i hope that you are aware that not everyone shares the views of Robinson. and by not everyone i mean the majority of the people who will be voting in this election. most of those people do not want the United States to become a socialist country. sorry.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Andrew. on Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:19 pm

llllllllllllllllllllllll wrote:Was that DNA test really that long ago?


It wasn't even a year ago. She publicized her DNA test results on October 15, 2018.

When her appropriated identity stuff came up earlier in the thread, someone (WG) repeated a common liberal refrain that it was just a right-wing talking point that no one else cared about. I was like yeah well "no one" cares as long as you erase Cherokee and Native American voices from the discussion.

Image

Trying to erase this stuff and say it's over and done with bc she apologized -- for something she continued ahead with fullsteam into October 2018 -- reeks of liberal, settler-colonial ideology. And hey, we all know she is a 'capitalist to her bones', in her own words, right.

Here's the Native American perspective on Warren that liberals love to ignore, for anyone interested:

DNA and Genetic Testing
Gupta, Prachi. “‘Our Vote Matters Very Little’: Kim TallBear on Elizabeth Warren's Attempt to Claim Native
American Heritage”. Jezebel. October 16, 2018.
https://theslot.jezebel.com/our-vote-ma ... 1829783321

TallBear, Kim. 2013. Native American DNA: Tribal Belonging and the False Promise of Genetic Science.
Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press.
https://www.upress.umn.edu/book-divisio ... erican-dna

Tsosie, Krystal. “Elizabeth Warren’s DNA Is Not Her Identity”. The Atlantic. October 17, 2018.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... st/573205/

Tsosie, Krystal and Matthew Anderson. “Two Native Americans geneticists interpret
Elizabeth Warren’s DNA test”. The Conversation. October 22, 2018.
https://theconversation.com/two-native- ... est-105274

Early responses from Indian Country to Warren
Franke-Ruta, Garance. “Is Elizabeth Warren Native American or What?”. The Atlantic. May 20, 2012.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... at/257415/

Nagle, Rebecca. “I am a Cherokee Woman. Elizabeth Warren is Not”. ThinkProgress. November 30, 2017.
https://thinkprogress.org/elizabeth-war ... c6c91b696/

Indian Country's response to Warren's DNA test
Blake, Aaron. “Why the Cherokee Nation’s Rebuke of Elizabeth Warren Matters”. The
Washington Post. October 16, 2018.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... 6f0a23d75a

Brewer, Graham. “Warren’s DNA Test Perpetuates Stereotypes, Native Communities
Say” WNYC The Takeaway. October 16, 2018.
https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/warre ... nities-say

Cherokee Nation. “Cherokee Nation responds to Senator Warren’s DNA test”. October 15, 2018.
http://webtest2.cherokee.org/News/Stori ... s-DNA-test

Echo Hawk, Crystal. “Changing Elizabeth Warren's story to one about Native America”.
Indian Country Today. October 18, 2018.
https://newsmaven.io/indiancountrytoday ... b023EFhqA/

Estes, Nick. “Native American Sovereignty Is Under Attack. Here’s How Elizabeth
Warren’s DNA Test Hurt Our Struggle.” The Intercept. October 19, 2018.
https://theintercept.com/2018/10/19/eli ... americans/

Hayes, Kelly and Jacqueline Keeler. “Elizabeth Warren connected DNA and Native
American heritage. Here’s why that's destructive.” NBC News. October 17, 2018.
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/e ... ncna921166

Hilleary, Cecily. “Native Americans Speak Out on Elizabeth Warren DNA Controversy”.
Voice of America. October 16, 2018.
https://www.voanews.com/a/native-americ ... ixxe77Ae0A

Martin, Nick. “Elizabeth Warren’s Deception”. Splinter. October 16, 2018.
https://splinternews.com/elizabeth-warr ... 1829755302

Moya-Smith,Simone. “I am a Native American. I Have Some Questions for Elizabeth
Warren”. CNN. October 15, 2018.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/15/opinions ... index.html

Nagle, Rebecca. “Elizabeth Warren’s ‘part’ Cherokee claim is a joke, and a racist insult
to Natives like me”. USA Today. October 18, 2018.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 668763002/

NoiseCat, Julian Brave. “Elizabeth Warren Is Not Native American”. Huffington Post.
October 16, 2018.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/op ... bc947a6e13

Reese, Debbie. “A Curated List of Indigenous Responses to Elizabeth Warren.”
American Indians in Children’s Literature. October 20, 2018.
https://americanindiansinchildrensliter ... es-to.html


http://www.criticalethnicstudiesjournal ... na-testing
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby nihil on Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:25 pm

andteater wrote:


When has Warren ever said that she isn't a capitalist? She's never said she's a socialist so why would that surprise you?

Because she's running as a progressive. She's being dishonest. It's important to point that out to many people who don't take the time to understand that she's not.

andteater wrote:my point is that i hope that you are aware that not everyone shares the views of Robinson. and by not everyone i mean the majority of the people who will be voting in this election. most of those people do not want the United States to become a socialist country. sorry.


Yes they do! Of course the corporations and the media they own don't want any form of socialism because it dips into their overstuffed pockets, but the majority of people in this country want better lives. They want universal health care, they don't want student debt, they don't want the world to go into fucking chaos because of climate change. But any form of socialism is demonized in the mainstream media. That's one of the reasons people vote against their own interests so often. And it's the reason that the media shuns Bernie Sanders. It's because he's a real threat. He is building a real movement around the interests of most people....the poor and working class. That scares the shit out of them.

People want what Warren is selling, but they don't realize that it will never happen. Even on the very remote possibility that she wins the general, it'll just be Obama without all that "gifted politician" baggage.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby andteater on Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:57 pm

nihil wrote:
andteater wrote:When has Warren ever said that she isn't a capitalist? She's never said she's a socialist so why would that surprise you?

Because she's running as a progressive. She's being dishonest. It's important to point that out to many people who don't take the time to understand that she's not.


being progressive doesn't necessarily mean you're a socialist. if she was running as a Democratic Socialist and jumped up and clapped for Trump's statement that would be different.

nihil wrote:
andteater wrote:my point is that i hope that you are aware that not everyone shares the views of Robinson. and by not everyone i mean the majority of the people who will be voting in this election. most of those people do not want the United States to become a socialist country. sorry.


Yes they do! Of course the corporations and the media they own don't want any form of socialism because it dips into their overstuffed pockets, but the majority of people in this country want better lives. They want universal health care, they don't want student debt, they don't want the world to go into fucking chaos because of climate change. But any form of socialism is demonized in the mainstream media. That's one of the reasons people vote against their own interests so often. And it's the reason that the media shuns Bernie Sanders. It's because he's a real threat. He is building a real movement around the interests of most people....the poor and working class. That scares the shit out of them.

People want what Warren is selling, but they don't realize that it will never happen. Even on the very remote possibility that she wins the general, it'll just be Obama without all that "gifted politician" baggage.


i can't disagree with the general idea of what you're stating there regarding what people desire. but i'm still not sure if that necessarily means "socialism" - it may mean "Democratic Socialism" but if that's the case really what you're saying is that the public has not been smart enough to understand what Bernie is selling OR he hasn't been effective enough into selling it to the public. in that case, not sure what to tell you. he has an uphill battle in this country. maybe he should have come up with a new term that didn't have the word "Socialism" in it.

secondly, you're right, people want what Warren is selling, but you're certain that it wont' happen. what makes you certain that if Bernie won it *would* happen? all of the sudden he'd get the votes in the Senate? dude won't even argue in favor of ending the filibuster.
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