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2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

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Elizabeth Warren

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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby llllllllllllllllllllllll on Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:23 am

jeff_fox wrote:What I don't understand is, since he's NOT even a socialist, why doesn't he ever state that in his rebuttals, interviews, campaigning, etc., given how unpopular the term seems to be?
I mean, other than not wanting to roll in shit with the trash that makes up most of this country...

It's cool that he's above responding to fucking asinine republican ads depicting mass graves in Soviet russia, but maybe for the sake of the infants that make up most of the voting population it would help to come out and say "this is NOT socialism" more often. Nothing about his platform would have to change, and the only people who would be pissed off about it are the actual Bernie Bros, and a handful of people on this forum.


He did a whole speech about what democratic socialism means.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby jeff_fox on Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:30 am

Great, thanks. I'm talking about trying to (repeatedly) assuage the fears of people who most definitely did not follow this speech and continue to perceive the word as an attack, every day.

But yeah, "you missed it, so fuck you" is a pretty good tactic as well.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby jimmy spako on Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:59 am

No one is saying that, Jeff.
I don't think his sit-downs with workers around the country and whatever else is coming from that place at all.

What would you propose that he do, that would be coherent?

It really just seems to come down to people wanting candidates to be what they are not. Being angry at them for being what they are. It's a little weird. On all sides.

There is no way in hell that he can run from that tag.
It is refreshing to see him embrace it, to be the first one to take that on, to make the case on a 21st century stage.

Among other things, the most important thing to do about battling the effects of climate change is to shout solidarity from the roof tops. To keep ringing that bell hard. Whether the ship has sailed or not on turning things around, we are going to need that more than anything when shit gets even more serious. And clearly, we would need all that right now whether climate change was a thing or not.

I think he should go harder on pressing the distinctions between Warren and himself, it is kind of a teachable moment. Point out she is a band-aid person, she's got a band-aid for that.

I know that is not quite fair to her, and I don't hate her, but that is what I believe he should do from this point on.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby andteater on Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:43 pm

Andrew. wrote:
El Protoolio wrote:To be fair, most of the political threads do suck.


I wonder who's forcing him to spend all his time on the shitty threads that he hates. Maybe he should see a life coach or something.


my wife. she makes me do this.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Andrew. on Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:48 pm

andteater wrote:
Andrew. wrote:
El Protoolio wrote:To be fair, most of the political threads do suck.


I wonder who's forcing him to spend all his time on the shitty threads that he hates. Maybe he should see a life coach or something.


my wife. she makes me do this.


There isn't always a strong woman behind every pathological internet man-forum complainer. Kudos to her on not losing you to a late-onset bachelor's life of jacking off on your guitar pedals and EGC custom designs! Lol
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby tallchris on Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:12 pm

Andrew. wrote:
andteater wrote:
Andrew. wrote:
El Protoolio wrote:To be fair, most of the political threads do suck.


I wonder who's forcing him to spend all his time on the shitty threads that he hates. Maybe he should see a life coach or something.


my wife. she makes me do this.


There isn't always a strong woman behind every pathological internet man-forum complainer. Kudos to her on not losing you to a late-onset bachelor's life of jacking off on your guitar pedals and EGC custom designs! Lol


Andy should just make her dreams come true and move to the Chicagoland suburbs already!
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby llllllllllllllllllllllll on Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:53 pm

Jacob Wohl is up to his distinct and rubbery smelling tricks again.

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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby curry pervert on Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:08 pm

What an asshole.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby askii on Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:14 pm

No way Warren participated in sex acts with toys purchased from Amazon. (Or maybe that's the real kink?)

As for whether "socialism" is an albatross for Bernie, it hasn't stopped him from being the most popular politician in the country for a few years running. And lots and lots of polling (which I'm too tired to look up right now, but will do if anyone insists) shows that American attitudes toward "socialism" and "capitalism" have shifted dramatically leftward since the Great Recession. Yes, this shift is strongest among the young. No, most respondents probably don't understand what these terms actually mean. For that matter, it's never been entirely clear why Bernie himself identifies as "socialist" when he's basically a New Deal Democrat, but then Democratic Socialism (as defined, say, by DSA members) is an ideologically big tent -- bigger than the current mainstream Democratic Party!

More to the point, the GOP will call any Dem candidate "socialist". We could nominate John fucking Delaney and they'd try to make the label stick. The right-wing fever swamp is still convinced Barack fucking Obama is a socialist, Romneycare is socialist, etc. It's an empty slur, and there's at least an argument to be made that the most effective way to counter it is by owning it, rehabilitating it, explaining what it actually looks like in practice -- as Bernie did in that aforementioned GWU speech (well worth watching if you didn't catch it) and does all the time on the hustings. He welcomes their hatred!

jimmy spako wrote:I also don't think he is our last hope at all. See the squad etc. The tide has turned in a significant way, there's no turning it back when it comes to core socialist values being represented in national electoral politics.

I wrote something to this effect, but I wholeheartedly agree about Justice Democrats et al. Their 2020 slate is inspiring, and for sure there will be more of them in the 117th Congress. But AOC isn't eligible for POTUS until 2028, and Jayapal is disqualified by country of origin. My point was that, when it comes to the only real timed test humanity has ever faced (as Bill McKibben likes to call it), the next US presidential administration is make-or-break.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Andrew. on Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:09 am

askii wrote:The right-wing fever swamp is still convinced Barack fucking Obama is a socialist, Romneycare is socialist, etc.


I think it was during Obama's first term that Jodi Dean was on Doug Henwood's show saying, "They're going to call you a socialist no matter what, so why not just do some actual leftwing things and improve people's lives, because you're going to be slurred by the right as a socialist either way."
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby jimmy spako on Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:32 am

At least half of us must be old enough to remember the early 90s Clinton bumper stickers with a hammer and sickle for the C.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Andrew. on Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:46 am

Elizabeth Warren wrote:For most of America’s history, when our companies did better, our workers did better – and America built a thriving middle class. The Accountable Capitalism Act will help realign our skewed market incentives so companies & workers can once again do well together.

https://twitter.com/SenWarren/status/11 ... 4712745984

I've long said that it's a defining trait of U.S. liberals to let an ideological myth about the postwar boom stand in for "most of history." Never mind 89 years of slavery, 159 years of banning strikes and unions and Pinkertons murdering strikers, and 162 years of child labor: 1945 to 1975 was pretty decent for white able-bodied men in America (thanks, among other things, to fear of the USSR).

The way liberals always appeal to the postwar "Golden Era" as a historical norm, without the slightest clue about what made that period exceptional, was one of my main themes in the "Problem with Liberalism" thread.

Warren talks about "skewed market incentives." Bernie talks about class warfare. The two have very different understandings of history, of how social change happens, of how power operates in society, and of who should wield power in society.

Bernie Sanders wrote:If there is going to be class warfare in this country, it's about time the working class won that war.

https://twitter.com/berniesanders/statu ... 3169723398?
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Wood Goblin on Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:37 pm

Warren will be picketing with Chicago teachers tomorrow.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby tmidgett on Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:59 am

Andrew. wrote:
Elizabeth Warren wrote:For most of America’s history, when our companies did better, our workers did better – and America built a thriving middle class. The Accountable Capitalism Act will help realign our skewed market incentives so companies & workers can once again do well together.

https://twitter.com/SenWarren/status/11 ... 4712745984

I've long said that it's a defining trait of U.S. liberals to let an ideological myth about the postwar boom stand in for "most of history." Never mind 89 years of slavery, 159 years of banning strikes and unions and Pinkertons murdering strikers, and 162 years of child labor: 1945 to 1975 was pretty decent for white able-bodied men in America (thanks, among other things, to fear of the USSR).

The way liberals always appeal to the postwar "Golden Era" as a historical norm, without the slightest clue about what made that period exceptional, was one of my main themes in the "Problem with Liberalism" thread.

Warren talks about "skewed market incentives." Bernie talks about class warfare. The two have very different understandings of history, of how social change happens, of how power operates in society, and of who should wield power in society.

Bernie Sanders wrote:If there is going to be class warfare in this country, it's about time the working class won that war.

https://twitter.com/berniesanders/statu ... 3169723398?


Neat summary of how different they are.

Which is different enough, if not as different as either one of them and anyone else in the race.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Andrew. on Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:52 pm

For someone who's supposed to "have a plan" for absolutely everything, her plan for health care seems anything but clear. It seems to be bringing a bunch of stakeholders together to create a plan, which is a plan to make a plan with private industry at the table.

Via Doug Henwood:

Compare and contrast.

Real M4A:

everyone covered, no co-pays, no restrictive networks, no interference from insurance company death panels.

Elizabeth Warren:

"And for me, I think of it like that way I think of trade, and that is, it matters who is at the table. I want to make sure that the folks who are at the table are folks who don’t have health care coverage – I want to make sure they’re there – but also folks who do have health care coverage. I want to make sure the unions are there. And I know not all of the unions are on the same place because they have members that have — they’re in different places on health care. This is going to be a process that is fundamentally about respecting the fact that we’ve got to work together on this. For those for whom it is already part of their compensation package, then we’ve got to think about adjustments in the law that make sure, not just out of the goodness of their hearts, that some employers will make up the difference, but that that is part of the legal structure. For people who don’t have any coverage, we’ve got to make sure that they’re represented about how fast we can get them into the system, so when I hear people say, well, we’ll do 55, 50, 45, well that’s great if you have health insurance. We’ve got to find a way to get people into Medicare for All as quickly as we can. So, it’s not that I have a plan that says we’re going to do this part and then we’re going to do this part and then we’re going to do this part. No, instead my plan is we’re going to get to a table like this. We’re going to make sure that everybody gets represented. We’re going to understand the urgency of the moment to get this solved with people who aren’t covered, and get ourselves on a path where everybody can get there and everybody can get covered at the lowest possible cost. That’s what Medicare for All is all about.""


Can anyone here explain her health care plan better than she does in this quote?
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Boombats on Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:37 pm

I'm guessing that there will be exponentially more seats at that table for insurance lobbyists than for union folks and reg'lar people.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby curry pervert on Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:38 pm

Andrew. wrote:Can anyone here explain her health care plan better than she does in this quote?


Yeah.

"I'm going to say things that make it sound like I'm progressive without committing to anything so that I can pander to corporate interests."
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby askii on Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:01 pm

curry pervert wrote:
Andrew. wrote:Can anyone here explain her health care plan better than she does in this quote?


Yeah.

"I'm going to say things that make it sound like I'm progressive without committing to anything (even though I've already cosponsored the bill that actually IS a plan for getting people into Medicare for All as quickly as possible) so that I can pander to corporate interests."

Flip-flopped yr post.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Andrew. on Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:43 pm

Like seriously, one of her slogans is that she has a plan for everything.

What is her plan for health care?

Because it looks like her plan is to water down the definition of M4A with a bunch of mealy-mouthed weasel rhetoric before brokering a deal with private industry down the road. If that's not true, then what is it?
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby askii on Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:02 pm

It is peculiar. She has rigorous policy proposals in so many areas, and this particular one is key to Dems' chances in 2020 like it was in 2018.

It can't be that she wants to differentiate her version of M4A -- whatever it might be -- from Sanders / Jayapal, because she was fine with biting Inslee's climate plan. (For the record, I have no problem with that. Inslee's plan is his campaign's legacy, and more candidates should poach it.)

Especially after the last debate, it seems like she's trying to avoid saying middle-class taxes will go up, which is such a Dukakis Democrat thing to worry about. And you know she's all over that Saez and Zucman tax policy simulator that I mentioned in the Mayo Pete thread. Bernie is just going straight at it: yes, your taxes will go up, but your out-of-pocket costs will go to zero and you will almost certainly see a net savings. How hard is that? The Professor-in-Chief is great at folksifying complex economic systems.

So that's not really a satisfying explanation either. Which does raise a cynical eyebrow.
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