home studios equipment staff/friends booking/rates for sale forum contact

2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Vote and debate.

Moderators: kerble, Electrical-Staff

Elizabeth Warren

Not crap
41
61%
Crap
26
39%
 
Total votes : 67

Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Angus Jung on Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:15 pm

There was a poll recently saying that over 70% of Democrats have a favorable opinion of Bernie Sanders. I think it was 74%. That's far from the 'divisive, polarizing figure' cable news makes him out to be.

Democrats across the board will not have trouble voting for Bernie even if he isn't their first choice. And Sanders always polls ahead of Trump in head-to-head matchups.

I always hear defeatist "Trump is inevitably gonna get re-elected" takes from people and I understand them, but the numbers don't bear it out.

If Sanders gets fucked out of the nomination, it's a different story.
Angus Jung
Present-day God
Present-day God
 
Posts: 9459
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 7:04 pm
Location: High Desert

Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby curry pervert on Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:37 pm

Sanders is the only candidate that could beat trump in November.
User avatar
curry pervert
greek
greek
 
Posts: 842
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:39 pm
Location: surfing the ether

Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby brephophagist on Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:43 pm

Angus Jung wrote:Democrats across the board will not have trouble voting for Bernie even if he isn't their first choice.

Minor word of caution: let's not take anything for granted. 3 lifelong Dem voters in the family told me Sunday that they'd vote for Trump over Bernie in the general. They all detest Trump, voted for Hillary, and prefer Mayo. Generationally: two Boomers and one Silent.
User avatar
brephophagist
saw big cat
saw big cat
 
Posts: 1755
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:41 am
Location: Portland, OR

Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Angus Jung on Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:49 pm

brephophagist wrote:3 lifelong Dem voters in the family told me Sunday that they'd vote for Trump over Bernie in the general. They all detest Trump, voted for Hillary, and prefer Mayo. Generationally: two Boomers and one Silent.

Are they extremely wealthy? That's the only way this makes sense to me.

"Democrats who hate the principled old guy who wants people to have health care, more than Trump." Trying to wrap my head around that.
Angus Jung
Present-day God
Present-day God
 
Posts: 9459
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 7:04 pm
Location: High Desert

Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby brephophagist on Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:38 pm

Angus Jung wrote:Are they extremely wealthy? That's the only way this makes sense to me.

Not extremely by my definition, but they definitely aren't living check to check either. I think Paul Fussell would characterize the Boomers as middle class and the Silent as high prole. The Boomers are married; she is a semi-retired teacher and he owns/operates a couple of skid row restaurants and a couple rental houses. The Silent is retired from working for the AFL and owns her own very small house and an ADU on her property that she rents out. Maybe this is extremely wealthy and I've just known them for too long to see it, but I know people that I do consider extremely wealthy and they seem thrifty by comparison. The Silent has Depression-era habits around wasting food, e.g.

I'm not sure puzzling about the reasons logically is going to do much beyond generate a headache. Their reasons boil down to reheated media claptrap. "Bernie doesn't know how he's going to pay for all these programs; he's going to tax us. I don't care if he says it'll come from the wealthy; he's a politician and I don't trust them." For the two women there's a bit of lingering bruises from 2016 in there, too, I think. They wanted to see a woman president in their lifetime.

I mean I'll keep trying, but I'm not sure we bring people like this over. We just focus on turning out the Gen X and younger folks.

Edit: your original point above was taken as intended (Bernie's support is larger than the media is saying openly) and I don't want to shit all over that, or Bernie's success. But I don't want us to make the same mistake Clinton 2016 did, either - assuming success where reality doesn't reflect it.
User avatar
brephophagist
saw big cat
saw big cat
 
Posts: 1755
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:41 am
Location: Portland, OR

Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby AdamN on Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:52 pm

User avatar
AdamN
meadowlark lemon
meadowlark lemon
 
Posts: 647
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:50 pm

Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Angus Jung on Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:54 pm

Thanks FM brephophagist. That's a good reminder of something I've said on this forum before - most peoples' politics are not coherent.
Angus Jung
Present-day God
Present-day God
 
Posts: 9459
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 7:04 pm
Location: High Desert

Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby brephophagist on Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:09 pm

Right on, and definitely agreed. A lot of people react to their experience over intentionally following a set of principles. Others consciously contain Whitman's multitudes for whatever reason, which I think the news media calls "single issue voters".

(back on topic) I hope Warren's still in it come convention time. At least she has some actual ideas in her platform that aren't Reagan-with-frosting.


For me this drives that "turn out the younger-than-Boomers" thing even more. iirc, that's one of the major reasons Obama won. School me if that's one of those proven-wrong media narratives, though.
User avatar
brephophagist
saw big cat
saw big cat
 
Posts: 1755
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:41 am
Location: Portland, OR

Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby VaticanShotglass on Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:24 pm

I never rest easy about these things. But while we are sharing, here's some non-generalizable anecdotes.

I'm shocked that my parents seem appear to favor Sanders. Other than for Ross Perot once or twice, my dad is a solid republican voter. He has hated the Clinton's from day one. He hates Joe Biden. For whatever reason, he seems to like Sanders. I don't trust his vote this time; he can flake out on these things. I think my mom is pretty solidly down for Sanders based on health care (and some doubts about a woman candidate). She voted for Obama, but she's voted republican before. My brother and his early 20s friends are 5/6 going for Sanders (the other guy is a die hard capitalism). All white. This is hard core Trump country among whites. All of my students, white and minority hate Trump, but I don't think they are clued into primary politics. I haven't asked.
User avatar
VaticanShotglass
Best leader Who Realized Human Wisdom
Best leader Who Realized Human Wisdom
 
Posts: 2677
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:22 pm

Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby tmidgett on Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:27 pm

Pretty good article/interview.

The idea is that elections are about turnout, and if Democrats turn out "their people," they win. If they don't, they don't. Not new.

And "their people" aren't monolithic and are instead various overlapping coalitions, with different agendas, people coming in and out of voting depending on whether or not they feel compelled to do it. Sorta new.

And "independents" are not the same thing as centrists or moderates. They're either:
a) actually party-identified and just choose to vote or not
b) actually party-identified and vote and might as well not be independent
c) true independents who tend to vote to break with the status quo.

The last group, she claims, is 6-7% of the electorate--true swing voters, and enough to matter (and quite likely fuck you) if you're a Democrat running for President who is trying to play to the middle. But there are so many more Dem-leaning voters that if you can get them motivated and out to vote, that small group of independents doesn't matter. Pretty new idea.

Anyway, who knows. It validates what I've thought my whole life, but maybe she's wrong and maybe I'm wrong.
User avatar
tmidgett
Present-day God
Present-day God
 
Posts: 9420
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:30 pm

Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby jimmy spako on Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:07 am

Angus Jung wrote:Thanks FM brephophagist. That's a good reminder of something I've said on this forum before - most peoples' politics are not coherent.


This is absolutely the most important thing to remember here, all the time.

It can play to "our" advantage too, but it is the reality, and it also applies equally to "high" / "medium" / "low" information voters.
Isabelle Gall wrote:'Do not go smoothly into that dark night'
User avatar
jimmy spako
Man with Encyclopedic Knowledge
Man with Encyclopedic Knowledge
 
Posts: 5377
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:49 am
Location: schnitzel circuit

Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Teacher's Pet on Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:02 am

tmidgett wrote:Pretty good article/interview.

The idea is that elections are about turnout, and if Democrats turn out "their people," they win. If they don't, they don't. Not new.
...
Anyway, who knows. It validates what I've thought my whole life, but maybe she's wrong and maybe I'm wrong.


Me too.

More on this here.
User avatar
Teacher's Pet
has seen it all
has seen it all
 
Posts: 1739
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:15 pm
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Angus Jung on Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:34 pm

Elizabeth Warren again is pressed on past claims of Native American heritage

More than 200 Cherokees and other Native Americans have signed a letter urging Democratic presidential candidate Elizabeth Warren to fully retract her past claims to being Native and help dispel false beliefs held by many white people that they have American Indian ancestry.

This story hasn't gone away, nor should it.

Edit: Warren's response.

Could be wrong but I think this is the first time she has ever come out and said "I am a white woman" in such clear terms.
Angus Jung
Present-day God
Present-day God
 
Posts: 9459
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 7:04 pm
Location: High Desert

Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby seanurban on Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:30 pm

Angus Jung wrote:Elizabeth Warren again is pressed on past claims of Native American heritage

More than 200 Cherokees and other Native Americans have signed a letter urging Democratic presidential candidate Elizabeth Warren to fully retract her past claims to being Native and help dispel false beliefs held by many white people that they have American Indian ancestry.

This story hasn't gone away, nor should it.

Edit: Warren's response.

Could be wrong but I think this is the first time she has ever come out and said "I am a white woman" in such clear terms.

holy shit! that apology is 12 pages, with footnotes!
ok ok you're white! i'll never question it again.
User avatar
seanurban
King High
 
Posts: 5223
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:22 pm

Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Andrew. on Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:43 pm

Image

Make capitalism great and pure again...
User avatar
Andrew.
Power Incarnate with Endless Creativity
Power Incarnate with Endless Creativity
 
Posts: 7065
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 11:02 pm

Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Angus Jung on Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:00 pm

Angus Jung
Present-day God
Present-day God
 
Posts: 9459
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 7:04 pm
Location: High Desert

Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby enframed on Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:08 pm

seanurban wrote:holy shit! that apology is 12 pages, with footnotes!
ok ok you're white! i'll never question it again.


I chuckled.
Records for sale.

Those most doomed to repeat history are those who know it best.
User avatar
enframed
King Shit of Fuck Mountain
 
Posts: 17538
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:06 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Wood Goblin on Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:22 am

Angus Jung wrote:Sanders Opens Substantial Lead In Massachusetts, Challenging Warren On Her Home Turf

If he wins by more than 5%, I will LOL.


I get that you want Bernie to win, but I have to ask: why is it so important for you to see Warren lose?
User avatar
Wood Goblin
Heaven-Sent Hero
Heaven-Sent Hero
 
Posts: 6083
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:43 pm
Location: South Loop, Chicago

Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Angus Jung on Sat Feb 29, 2020 11:06 am

She's run an awful, disingenuous campaign. Waffled on Medicare for all, waffled on taking money from a Super PAC, accused Bernie of sexism, supports a brokered convention even though she would still have no chance of winning..go away.
Angus Jung
Present-day God
Present-day God
 
Posts: 9459
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 7:04 pm
Location: High Desert

Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby tmidgett on Sat Feb 29, 2020 11:53 am

Angus Jung wrote:She's run an awful, disingenuous campaign. Waffled on Medicare for all, waffled on taking money from a Super PAC, accused Bernie of sexism, supports a brokered convention even though she would still have no chance of winning..go away.


I don't really disagree with that, and all of the last part is just facts. At this point she is a spoiler.

Compared to other Presidential campaigns in our lives? Above average.

Which makes it clear how bad we have had it!

It is now a mildly progressive, mostly merely liberal campaign, with a variety of pitfalls.

"I have a plan for that"--no one gets elected President on specific plans. Detail doesn't matter and can only be held against you as time wears on.

Assertions and promises...waffled on or even reversed _during the election_. You can break your promises when you get into office!

She realized she was gonna need a few votes from the middle, then money, then generalized chaos if she is going to have a prayer. It's her last shot, so I get it.

But she has been dogged about the wrong things and reversed herself on stuff that is meaningful. People might be dumb but they catch onto that.

All that is good for fourth place this time.
User avatar
tmidgett
Present-day God
Present-day God
 
Posts: 9420
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:30 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Crap / Not Crap

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 10 guests