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Countries: New Zealand

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Countries: New Zealand

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Total votes : 36

Re: Countries: New Zealand

Postby brisket on Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:51 pm

I see you basically just posted what I was about to in slightly fewer words.
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Re: Countries: New Zealand

Postby B_M_L on Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:12 am

This thread got depressing!

I haven't been back for more than two weeks at a time in the last 13 or so years. And as it stands now I haven't been back at all for the last three years.

I miss New Zealand. I've always enjoyed going back. I probably haven't noticed much difference becuase I don't spend enough time there. It's expensive that's for sure!

My feeling is that NZ was never as egalitarian as Kiwi's would have liked it to be. There is a certain amount of myth making involved about NZ's (classless) past. I think people just show their wealth now - whereas maybe in the past the rich were less inclined to be flash.

Also the politics has always been slightly right of centre hasn't it? It was the Labour party who started the great sell-off of assets etc and ended free education (I might be wrong there). And the only marginally left government in recent memory has been the blip where Helen Clarke was PM. NZ tends to have Conservative governments, then reforming governments (under the guise of Labour).
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Re: Countries: New Zealand

Postby Gramsci on Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:01 pm

BML & fellow NZers.

Have you seen the "new thing" on Facebook, The Pakeha Party? Just terrible, really, really awful.

Note: to non-New Zealanders, Pakeha is the Maori word for the European settlers, commonly used in NZ referring anyone of a European background... i.e they may as well called it the White Party.
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Re: Countries: New Zealand

Postby Anthony Flack on Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:20 pm

They may as well have called it the "We're Trying To Make A Crude Point About The Whole Separate Maori Electorate Thing Party"

That's not a political party, it's a troll.

B_M_L wrote:It's expensive that's for sure!


I know, right? And yet wages are low. WTF New Zealand? We're an agricultural nation, why does it cost me so much to eat?
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Re: Countries: New Zealand

Postby Gramsci on Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:23 am

Same as here in Brazil. It's all for export.

I used to pay less for a leg of lamb in London that had been flown over fresh than what my mum paid in the supermarket in NZ.
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Re: Countries: New Zealand

Postby LBx on Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:30 am

I don't know anything about the politics of NZ so I cannot chime in on that. But in 2001 I had a wonderful time there despite have very little spare cash to see the bulk of the country properly. I have a wonderful memory of standing with my toes off the edge of the North Island. Would love to repeat the scene on that of the South Island as I didn't quite make it that far down.


Saving pennies or whatever...


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Re: Countries: New Zealand

Postby Anthony Flack on Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:33 pm

B_M_L wrote:T
Also the politics has always been slightly right of centre hasn't it? It was the Labour party who started the great sell-off of assets etc and ended free education (I might be wrong there). And the only marginally left government in recent memory has been the blip where Helen Clarke was PM.


Like Roger Douglas, you mean? Who went on to form New Zealand's ultra-right fringe party. God knows what he was doing in the Labour Party to begin with.

It was a real fucking kick in the teeth to see Helen Clark defeated by John Key. I was left feeling like the public didn't deserve a prime minister of her calibre. Fiercely intelligent and a genuine public servant. Now we have a corporate CEO in charge.

I shouldn't complain too much, because obviously the political situation in the US is much, much worse. But we're all sliding into the same pit, it seems.
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Re: Countries: New Zealand

Postby SecondEdition on Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:07 pm

Met a New Zealander today on the train. Nice guy.

He talked about a musician named Darcy Clay, who I'd never heard of.
Life...life...I know it's got its ups and downs.

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Re: Countries: New Zealand

Postby Anthony Flack on Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:57 pm

Released one home-recorded (on 4 track) EP after his song Jesus I was Evil became an unexpected student radio hit, played a couple of shows with a hastily-assembled backing band, and promptly blew his brains out.

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Re: Countries: New Zealand

Postby Anthony Flack on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:09 pm

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Re: Countries: New Zealand

Postby Anthony Flack on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:24 pm

And a more detailed account of his terribly brief career:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-time ... n-years-on
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Re: Countries: New Zealand

Postby B_M_L on Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:16 am

Gramsci wrote:BML & fellow NZers.

Have you seen the "new thing" on Facebook, The Pakeha Party? Just terrible, really, really awful.

Note: to non-New Zealanders, Pakeha is the Maori word for the European settlers, commonly used in NZ referring anyone of a European background... i.e they may as well called it the White Party.


I don't even know what to say. What the fuck is wrong with people?!

I actually like the term Pakeha (or maybe I should say did like it). I never felt 'European' and I hated being a "New Zealander of European Decent". I am the 5th generation of our family born in NZ. So I always felt that Pakeha (for me anyway) acknowledged that we were different.

I thought that being Pakeha said that your roots were in NZ, and it said that you were not just local, but that you had an awareness of the country’s history. For me it distinguished you from people who felt they were European or White.

Maybe it’s a silly point. And it definitely seems that way now – I don’t want to associated with a bunch of arseholes, and having the word appropriated by these racists is shit.

I have a friend who lived in the UK for the first 5 years that I was here. He’s back now and living near Tauranga. When I talk to him he often makes jokes about it now being the Land of the Wrong White Crowd… I guess he’s not joking that much.
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Re: Countries: New Zealand

Postby Anthony Flack on Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:07 am

Well, it's a complex point, isn't it? I think it's pretty unsustainable that we have a certain element of racial privilege enshrined in law, and the Treaty of Waitangi is really not a suitable document for establishing a modern and increasingly multi-cultural nation. It needs to be retired.

But the word "Pakeha" definitely does not have white supremacist connotations now! If anything, it still carries a hint of anti-white, Maori racism about it; a touch of honkey.
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Re: Countries: New Zealand

Postby B_M_L on Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:40 am

Anthony Flack wrote:Well, it's a complex point, isn't it? I think it's pretty unsustainable that we have a certain element of racial privilege enshrined in law, and the Treaty of Waitangi is really not a suitable document for establishing a modern and increasingly multi-cultural nation. It needs to be retired.


I don't think the Treaty needs to be retired at all. And I don't think it's about 'racial privilege' - I think it's about a legal agreement and obligations.

You can't just unwind 170 years; you can just decide that the founding document doesn’t really suit you now, that it’s not really convenient anymore.

The trouble is that for 150 years one side of the agreement didn’t really want to keep their end of the bargan. They thought that they could just ignore it and everyone would forget. It’s arrogant. And it’s embarrassing.

I think part of the problem is that Kiwi's still learn at school that Cook discovered New Zealand despite the fact he was 500 years late.
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Re: Countries: New Zealand

Postby Anthony Flack on Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:34 am

Well the Moriori were first but they were exterminated by another group of colonial settlers.

The reason the Treaty isn't fit to be a founding document for a modern multi-cultural society is that it is nothing more than a sketchy peace agreement between the British crown and Maori tribes, for goodness' sake. It is a historical document of ever-decreasing relevance to what is an increasingly racially-blended society. And what about all the Chinese immigrants who now call themselves New Zealanders? Where do they fit in? Are they 800 years too late?

Issuing settlements for historical grievances, that's fine and it has been happening. At this point the Iwi are basically large, rich family trusts, which is not inappropriate.
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Re: Countries: New Zealand

Postby B_M_L on Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:47 am

Anthony Flack wrote:Well the Moriori were first but they were exterminated by another group of colonial settlers.


The 'theory' that Moriori were a distinct group of pre-Maori Settlers in New Zeland that were displaced ("exterminated") by the colonising Maori has been disproved for quite a long time. It was an insidious and baseless idea that was used to justify the displacement of native populations by 'superior' races - essentially to to justify white settlers grabbing land and supressing local culture.

[Edited out the wanky comment from here - but is was disproved as an idea some time in the 60's]

Anthony Flack wrote: The reason the Treaty isn't fit to be a founding document for a modern multi-cultural society is that it is nothing more than a sketchy peace agreement between the British crown and Maori tribes, for goodness' sake.


No - it would be 'easier' if it was. But it's not true at all and none of the original participants saw it this way.

Anthony Flack wrote:And what about all the Chinese immigrants who now call themselves New Zealanders? Where do they fit in?


I don't get what you mean here? Anyone immigrating to the country should be treated the same way. I don't get why honouring a founding document means that we are mistreating Chinese people?

Anthony Flack wrote:At this point the Iwi are basically large, rich family trusts, which is not inappropriate.


Really? First I'd like to see some evidence of this. But what you seem to be saying is that this population that was economically and culturally supressed for 150 years now has control of some of their own assets and finances again.... and they're protecting them? Jesus how dare they!
Last edited by B_M_L on Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:43 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Countries: New Zealand

Postby AnthonyVillalobos on Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:51 am

New Zealand looks like a beautiful piece of land. Never been, but I'm obsessed with the music/bands that comes from the kiwi land.

My brothers and I are 1/8 Maori on our mother's side, so it's kind of pathetic we've never been.

The Gordons alone is enough for me to give NZ a hearty not crap vote.
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Re: Countries: New Zealand

Postby Anthony Flack on Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:02 pm

B_M_L wrote:
Anthony Flack wrote:The 'theory' that Moriori were a distinct group of pre-Maori Settlers in New Zeland that were displaced ("exterminated") by the colonising Maori has been disproved for quite a long time. It was an insidious and baseless idea that was used to justify the displacement of native populations by 'superior' races - essentially to to justify white settlers grabbing land and supressing local culture.


I stand corrected - just another victim of inter-tribal warfare, then. Although it amounts to the same thing. The point is not establishment of a narrative based on succession of "superior" races taking over... but rather that all of history, everywhere, is full of assholes killing and swindling each other, stretching as far back as you care to look.

At this point in time, a modern Maori person would be quite correct in saying that yes, their ancestors were well-and-truly fucked over by their other ancestors.

B_M_L wrote:
Anthony Flack wrote: The reason the Treaty isn't fit to be a founding document for a modern multi-cultural society is that it is nothing more than a sketchy peace agreement between the British crown and Maori tribes, for goodness' sake.


No - it would be 'easier' if it was. But it's not true at all and none of the original participants saw it this way.


What's not true? That it was an agreement between Maori tribes and the British crown? That it is sketchy? It's sketchy as all fuck! If you read it you'd be hard-pressed to say what it actually means when applied to society today.

As documents go, it's a piece of shit. The English and Maori versions weren't even the same! It's certainly not something you'd want to use as the foundation of a modern, multicultural democracy.

B_M_L wrote:]
Anthony Flack wrote:And what about all the Chinese immigrants who now call themselves New Zealanders? Where do they fit in?


I don't get what you mean here? Anyone immigrating to the country should be treated the same way. I don't get why honouring a founding document means that we are mistreating Chinese people?


I'm saying that a historical agreement between Maori tribes and the British crown is not really relevant to a multi-cultural nation which is no longer governed by either Maori or British monarchy, and is certainly not divided into two distinct racial/cultural groups. And yes, I think we should declare ourselves a republic and ditch the Queen as our nominal head of state too. It's equally inappropriate historical baggage at this point.

Anthony Flack wrote:At this point the Iwi are basically large, rich family trusts, which is not inappropriate.


Really? First I'd like to see some evidence of this. But what you seem to be saying is that this population that was economically and culturally supressed for 150 years now has control of some of their own assets and finances again.... and they're protecting them? Jesus how dare they!


You misunderstand. I said I think it IS appropriate. To operate as a large family trust makes perfect sense. And that's what they're doing - they are running companies, managing their assets and providing grants etc. All that seems perfectly sensible to me. Settle historical grievances with cash and assets and after that it's up to the Iwi to grow or squander their assets as they see fit.

None of this does anything to help disenfranchised urban Maori, who mostly have nothing to do with the Iwi, but Iwi can do what they like with their money I guess.

What we can't afford to do is remain in a post-colonial no-man's-land forever. What possible relevance could the Treaty have in a hundred years' time? Or five hundred? How long before it's considered inappropriate to maintain a seperate Maori electoral roll, for instance?
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Re: Countries: New Zealand

Postby Anthony Flack on Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:01 pm

New Zealand rated #1 in the world for human freedom.

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/nz-lead ... om-5314956

Sorry guys, I guess WE are the land of the free now.
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Re: Countries: New Zealand

Postby Gramsci on Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:54 pm

Here's a small amount of hope...


Shihad to Record New Album with Jaz Coleman in Egypt

Churn II?

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