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2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

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Elizabeth Warren

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Total votes : 67

Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby andteater on Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:51 am

Clyde wrote:
andteater wrote:
Clyde wrote:
andteater wrote:so much time wasted posting angry character assessments


Projecting


just did a check. this was my 8th post on this forum in the past 30 days. Most of them were in the tech forum trying to sell an old MOTU that I had (thankfully Reverb took care of that for me!).

so much time wasted.


Hey, I just checked too. A quarter of your posts were you still getting mad at an FM who deleted his account 18 months ago. That takes care of February. Would you like me to quote your January posts? Or, you know, all your posts before that? We can dissect your entire posting history if you want but I feel safe stating that you have a well-earned reputation around here for telling people how much they suck.


i'm not mad about FM connor. i'm laughing at him.

the same way i laugh at most of the people on this forum. it's one of the perks of not being an assclown.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Wood Goblin on Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:52 am

Bernie supporters want Warren to drop out because they believe she’s splitting the leftist vote and are assuming that Warren supporters will become Bernie supporters.

Over the past few days, I’ve been seeing on Facebook and among friends, a level of anger at Bernie I hadn’t seen before. Why? Because of the snake Twitter and the constant mansplaining on their own Facebook feeds. I mean, the Warren thread is now as long as the Bernie and Biden threads combined, and it mostly consists of Bernie fans attacking Warren. Go back to the early pages and you’ll even see pro-Bernie people insisting that a woman can’t win—you know, the sexist stuff you’d never, ever hear coming from Bernie.

If you add the posts from the “would you: Warren” thread, you have even more posts about Warren in your total. (I don’t recall seeing similar thread about Bernie. I wonder why?)

For all the chatter about Bernie’s broad and diverse base of support—and it is genuinely broad and diverse—his most zealous supporters are fucking this up in real time, for all the world to see, and absolutely WILL NOT accept criticism about it.

Will Warren supporters vote for Bernie in November? Of course.

Will they write checks and knock on doors? Extremely doubtful, at this point. And you guys really need them to write checks and knock on doors.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Andrew. on Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:20 am

The above avoids the uncomfortable fact that Warren isn't pushing any important issues that Bernie isn't pushing and she isn't mobilizing constituencies Democrats need to fire up to win. She has no path to winning but is criticizing Bernie by name in her speeches.

So the question is how does her campaign benefit the cause at this point?

The onus is on Warren to do the right thing and/or for her supporters to explain why her campaign benefits the world going forward.

Bernie supporters are not responsible for Warren or the nature of her campaign, and that's what this thread is about.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Clyde on Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:07 pm

Wood Goblin wrote:Bernie supporters want Warren to drop out because they believe she’s splitting the leftist vote and are assuming that Warren supporters will become Bernie supporters.

I can't speak for anybody but myself but what I'd like is for her to drop out and endorse Sanders if her Super Tuesday goes the way it's expected. I don't think it's too much to ask a candidate who generally shares the same values to do that. Presumably a fair amount of Klobuchar and Pete voters will switch to Sanders but K & P dropped out and endorsed Biden because they weren't viable and they think he gives them the best chance of winning.
Wood Goblin wrote:Over the past few days, I’ve been seeing on Facebook and among friends, a level of anger at Bernie I hadn’t seen before. Why? Because of the snake Twitter and the constant mansplaining on their own Facebook feeds. I mean, the Warren thread is now as long as the Bernie and Biden threads combined, and it mostly consists of Bernie fans attacking Warren. Go back to the early pages and you’ll even see pro-Bernie people insisting that a woman can’t win—you know, the sexist stuff you’d never, ever hear coming from Bernie.

If you add the posts from the “would you: Warren” thread, you have even more posts about Warren in your total. (I don’t recall seeing similar thread about Bernie. I wonder why?)

For all the chatter about Bernie’s broad and diverse base of support—and it is genuinely broad and diverse—his most zealous supporters are fucking this up in real time, for all the world to see, and absolutely WILL NOT accept criticism about it.


Or they're mad because it's becoming increasingly likely that the candidate they support is about to flame-out and they're looking for somebody to blame? Or the narcissism of small differences? Or maybe a combination of a bunch of stuff?
I have posted before--I think in this thread--that there is no question that Bernie has his share of toxic supporters but what I don't see is anything beyond anecdotal evidence that there are more of them or that they are worse than any other candidate. What slim evidence I have found suggests the opposite.http://onlineharassmentdata.org/2016elections/
Now a lot of these squabbles are stupid and overblown. (Personally, I don't give a shit that Warren used to be a Republican. She hasn't been in a long time and political apostates are often the most committed.) But the reactions have also been stupid and overblown. How many people even know what snake twitter is? Similarly, I have seen an equal if more examples of anti-semitism and Islamophobia coming from supporters of other candidates directed at Sanders and nobody in the media is writing about that.

Wood Goblin wrote:Will Warren supporters vote for Bernie in November? Of course.

Will they write checks and knock on doors? Extremely doubtful, at this point. And you guys really need them to write checks and knock on doors.


What's your suggestion to win them over? I'm with you that scolding and teasing are the least effective methods.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Wood Goblin on Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:26 pm

Honestly, I think Sanders himself is doing a better job than his most vocal supporters are, in terms of maintaining a good relationship.

The positive arguments in favor of Sanders work way better, and will persuade more people, than the negative arguments against Warren. And attacks like “she’s a millionaire from Harvard” are the worst, when Sanders is a millionaire with a U of C degree.

One of the biggest reasons people support Warren over Sanders is that, frankly, she’s smarter and has more detailed policy proposals. It’s a big and undeniable gap, and plenty of women I know feel insulted that being quote-unquote “too prepared” works against them. If Warren drops out, Sanders could earn a lot of goodwill by promising to give Warren a role in shaping policy.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Wood Goblin on Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:33 pm

A good VP choice would also help heal wounds. (Cough, cough, Stacey Abrams).
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Clyde on Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:53 pm

Wood Goblin wrote:Honestly, I think Sanders himself is doing a better job than his most vocal supporters are, in terms of maintaining a good relationship.
The positive arguments in favor of Sanders work way better, and will persuade more people, than the negative arguments against Warren. And attacks like “she’s a millionaire from Harvard” are the worst, when Sanders is a millionaire with a U of C degree.

It's a primary and these things happen, all's fair etc but is there any question that Warren has thrown the sharper elbows, including recently? Isn't that a more egregious offense than whatever emoji trotskyznutz posted on a timeline?

Wood Goblin wrote:One of the biggest reasons people support Warren over Sanders is that, frankly, she’s smarter and has more detailed policy proposals. It’s a big and undeniable gap, and plenty of women I know feel insulted that being quote-unquote “too prepared” works against them. If Warren drops out, Sanders could earn a lot of goodwill by promising to give Warren a role in shaping policy.


I thought this was always a given.


BTW, Stacy Abrams seems pretty good overall but she sent up some major red flags when she showed that Bloomberg could buy her off.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Andrew. on Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:39 pm

Wood Goblin wrote:One of the biggest reasons people support Warren over Sanders is that, frankly, she’s smarter and has more detailed policy proposals. It’s a big and undeniable gap,


Her smarts and detailed policies don't seem to have much traction with:
-- people of color
-- young people
-- working-class people in general

Her smarts and policy wonkery were good enough to put her in fourth or fifth place with no broad movement or appeal beyond white liberal professionals. Not a winning strategy obviously.

But if smarts and details are the thing, then her supporters should be able to explain, perhaps in detail, why Warren staying in the race right now and attacking Bernie by name is a good political strategy that people here and everywhere should support.

So: why should people support Warren staying in the race and criticizing Bernie by name as she does so? Why is that SMART?

The Intercept's Jeremy Scahill tweeted Monday night that what was "notable" about Sanders' answer was his ability to counter Warren's claim without attacking the Massachusetts senator personally.

"He says he disagrees with her commentary on him and then proceeds to calmly describe some of his record," Scahill wrote.

Current Affairs editor Nathan J. Robinson, an outspoken Sanders supporter, echoed Scahill.

"Notice that he not only completely decimates Warren's unfair attack," Robinson tweeted, "but does so without himself saying a single negative word about Warren."


https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/ ... hievements?
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby tmidgett on Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:21 pm

Wood Goblin wrote:Honestly, I think Sanders himself is doing a better job than his most vocal supporters are, in terms of maintaining a good relationship.


He's certainly done a better job than she has!
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Andrew. on Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:01 pm

Warren finished 3rd in her own state.

Still interested to hear why Warren's political strategy is so "smart" for progressives and why people should be supporting it.

Minnesota
Delegates / percentage / votes

Joe Biden
38 38.6% 287,431

Bernie Sanders
26 29.9% 222,533

Elizabeth Warren
10 15.4% 114,756

Michael Bloomberg
0 8.3% 62,067


Massachusetts
Joe Biden
34 33.7% 459,253

Bernie Sanders
26 26.6% 362,342

Elizabeth Warren
17 21.2% 289,566

Michael Bloomberg
0 11.8% 160,877


Maine
Joe Biden
8 34% 65,609

Bernie Sanders
8 33% 63,670

Elizabeth Warren
2 15.9% 30,744

Michael Bloomberg
0 11.9% 23,065


Texas
Joe Biden
70 33.6% 661,450

Bernie Sanders
60 30.1% 592,077

Michael Bloomberg
4 14.7% 289,374

Elizabeth Warren
1 11.6% 227,459
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Wood Goblin on Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:16 pm

I said *she* was smart and that I thought she was most likely to effect progressive change in the face of an intransigent Senate. I firmly believe she would’ve made the best president, but that means nothing if you’re not also the best campaigner.

But yeah, she got shellacked last night, and it’s inevitable that she will drop out. At least she took down Bloomberg with her.

The whole evening was dispiriting.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Andrew. on Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:05 pm

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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby andteater on Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:53 pm

Andrew. wrote:Warren finished 3rd in her own state.

Still interested to hear why Warren's political strategy is so "smart" for progressives and why people should be supporting it.


she should stop her campaign, but that is up to her.

however, i still don't understand how so many Bernie people are simultaneously pointing out how little support she has followed by blaming her for stealing votes from Bernie.

the only person Bernie supporters should be worried about is Biden. why is it that Biden is winning in states that Bernie won in 2016? Why did he get such a huge African American turnout? Why is it that after four years of hearing "Bernie it the most loved candidate" and "this time it will be different, we are building a real game changer" that turnout of young people remains low?
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Angus Jung on Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:42 pm

andteater wrote:why is it that Biden is winning in states that Bernie won in 2016? Why did he get such a huge African American turnout? Why is it that after four years of hearing "Bernie it the most loved candidate" and "this time it will be different, we are building a real game changer" that turnout of young people remains low?

These questions are legit.

But it's also legit to point out that, in a scenario where Warren does what Mayo and Klobuchar did before Super Tuesday (i.e. leave the race, urge her supporters to support the candidate who's policies most closely align with her own), Bernie very likely wins the closely contested states from last night (Maine, Massachusets, Minnesota, Texas).

Over 200,000 people voted for Warren in Texas. Just pointless, thrown-away votes.

What a trainwreck. Sold out her progressive principles to try and be the 'unity candidate,' which went over like a wet fart, now she's painted into a corner. Third in her own home state last night. Real bad times.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby twelvepoint on Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:29 pm

Maybe she wanted to hang in there for all the folks who believe a woman can and should be president
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby seanurban on Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:13 pm

twelvepoint wrote:Maybe she wanted to hang in there for all the folks who believe a woman can and should be president

So she's just doing it for attention?
Yes, I know how that sounds. But men do it too. She's building her brand for future opportunities. It's a long game.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Redline on Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:26 pm

seanurban wrote:
twelvepoint wrote:Maybe she wanted to hang in there for all the folks who believe a woman can and should be president

So she's just doing it for attention?
Yes, I know how that sounds. But men do it too. She's building her brand for future opportunities. It's a long game.

Elizabeth Warren HATES Bernie Sanders.

She's just staying in it to fuck him up. It worked last night, that's for sure.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby PARPS on Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:34 pm

I'm hesitant to believe that a majority of Warren's votes would've gone to Sanders, since I think a lot of the people who would fit that category already switched. I think more likely a lot would've jumped to Biden or stayed home altogether. The issue is much more about the DNC putting all their weight behind Biden on top of 48 hours of glowing "comeback kid" news coverage. My hope is that this is about as well as he can do, and the race is still plenty close. I also think, if we end up with a brokered convention and Bernie wins clearly in MI, WI, and PA, he has a pretty strong case for being the nominee. Plus, the last person who needs more attention on Joe Biden is Joe Biden.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby Christopher on Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:56 am

And she's out.
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Re: 2020 Trump Opponent: Elizabeth Warren

Postby andteater on Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:41 am

so at this point, if she endorses Bernie and he still loses, who do we blame?
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