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Supreme Court to dismiss all pretense of democracy

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Re: Supreme Court to dismiss all pretense of democracy

Postby yaledelay on Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:46 pm

connor wrote:Think Big Business doesn't get a fair shake in United States elections? Well, you're in the luck! ]Bill Moyers interviewed/debated the man who'll be making that case to the Supreme Court next week.

Just taking corporate personhood to its logical conclusion: protected under the fourteenth amendment? Now they're on the verge of total and complete first amendment protections.



dear God is that scary.
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Re: Supreme Court to dismiss all pretense of democracy

Postby Robert G on Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:47 pm

yay capitalism.

p.s. I'm joking there.
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Re: Supreme Court to dismiss all pretense of democracy

Postby iembalm on Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:51 pm

Should you not be interested in watching the video, there's a link to text (not a transcript) to the right of the video box.
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Re: Supreme Court to dismiss all pretense of democracy

Postby Ty Webb on Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:58 pm

That was a really interesting debate, but unfortunately Moyers was forced to argue from an assumption that there is such a thing as corporate speech. I would've liked to have heard more about the foundations of its existence, not just its legal right not to be stifled.

The existence of corporate speech just does not compute with me.
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Re: Supreme Court to dismiss all pretense of democracy

Postby Ty Webb on Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:58 pm

connor wrote:I wonder how U.S. corporations feel about stuff? We never hear from them.


The first amendment guy's assertion that there's not ENOUGH corporate speech was so self-servingly disingenuous, he could barely say it with a straight face.
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Re: Supreme Court to dismiss all pretense of democracy

Postby iembalm on Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:18 pm

The evolution of "corporate personhood" and "corporate speech", and the dilution therof of citizens' rights in this country is as good a rationale for armed revolt as I expect to see in my lifetime.
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Re: Supreme Court to dismiss all pretense of democracy

Postby Ernest on Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:39 pm

Supreme Court to dismiss all pretense of democracy


About time.

See what I did there?

iembalm wrote:Should you not be interested in watching the video, there's a link to text (not a transcript) to the right of the video box.


Thanks.
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Re: Supreme Court to dismiss all pretense of democracy

Postby jurgis rudkus on Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:59 pm

iembalm wrote:The evolution of "corporate personhood" and "corporate speech", and the dilution therof of citizens' rights in this country is as good a rationale for armed revolt as I expect to see in my lifetime.


Yeah, but The People would be out-gunned. What we need is some Velvet.
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Re: Supreme Court to dismiss all pretense of democracy

Postby kerble on Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:04 pm

jurgis rudkus wrote:
iembalm wrote:The evolution of "corporate personhood" and "corporate speech", and the dilution therof of citizens' rights in this country is as good a rationale for armed revolt as I expect to see in my lifetime.


Yeah, but The People would be out-gunned. What we need is some Velvet.



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Re: Supreme Court to dismiss all pretense of democracy

Postby lemur68 on Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:28 pm

kerble wrote:
jurgis rudkus wrote:
iembalm wrote:The evolution of "corporate personhood" and "corporate speech", and the dilution therof of citizens' rights in this country is as good a rationale for armed revolt as I expect to see in my lifetime.


Yeah, but The People would be out-gunned. What we need is some Velvet.



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Re: Supreme Court to dismiss all pretense of democracy

Postby Waverider on Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:44 am

One of the great NGOs in the US is CorpWatch, the group that monitors the biggest transnational corps and exposes corporate malfeasance wherever they can. They were the one to first introduce me to the idea of the corporate death sentence -- that TNCs could be dis-incorporated in the state they have their charter filed for excessive crimes against humanity.

TNCs have far surpassed the individual in terms of legal rights just due to the number of cases filed, the legal staff they have on their side and the precedents set by the mind-numbing # of cases heard. The only way to counterbalance their influence are the campaign spending limits, sunshine laws to expose lobbyist practices and the occasional crushing of a bad corporate actor, such as Enron. There sure should have been a lot more during this last economic meltdown.
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Re: Supreme Court to dismiss all pretense of democracy

Postby frelnamp on Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:23 am

A corporation is a group mind. I don't get how some business venture could be considered an individual walking around doing things like the guy next door.

The Supreme Court decision that led to a corporation being a person:

http://www.ratical.org/corporations/SCvSPR1886.html

On that site, in the introduction to the text of the decision, they quote from a book called "The Post-Corporate World, Life After Capitalism":

The doctrine of corporate personhood creates an interesting legal contradiction. The corporation is owned by its shareholders and is therefore their property. If it is also a legal person, then it is a person owned by others and thus exists in a condition of slavery -- a status explicitly forbidden by the Thirteenth Amendment to the Constitution.


Interesting that this court decision came shortly after the end of the civil war, which resulted in blacks finally being designated as people. How come all the soul searching following the election of a black president, didn't examine how slavery was a way for big business, corporations, to increase profits by not paying workers, hauled over from a different country, a wage at all? They're still trying to figure out a way to get back to that stage, and will if they can.

The head decision maker of the corporation is a person who talks and has conversations and walks around breathing air, not the corporation itself. If some CEO or Corporate President wants to say something to somebody out loud in public, then he can do it himself, and enter into a conversation or argument from there. Not some "thing".
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Re: Supreme Court to dismiss all pretense of democracy

Postby Auntie Ovipositor on Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:59 am

krs wrote:As the 1983 American Heritage Dictionary noted

Looks like Thom needs to buy a new dictionary.
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Re: Supreme Court to dismiss all pretense of democracy

Postby iembalm on Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:03 am

Auntie Ovipositor wrote:
krs wrote:As the 1983 American Heritage Dictionary noted

Looks like Thom needs to buy a new dictionary.

He can't. A large percentage of his show is devoted to premises based on that specific definition. This is not a criticisim - I think he is dead on much of the time, and he cuts throught the bullshit as well as anyone on air.
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Re: Supreme Court to dismiss all pretense of democracy

Postby goosman on Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:18 pm

krs wrote:by Thom Hartmann


Man, why can't this guy be as popular as Rush? (rhetorical question of course)

That's some excellent writing.
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Re: Supreme Court to dismiss all pretense of democracy

Postby iembalm on Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:47 pm

connor wrote:John fucking Roberts will be the chief justice of the Supreme Court for the next 25 to 30 fucking years. I will be pushing 60 and that motherfucker will still be the chief fucking justice.

I do not use the word "hate" very much at all, but when the Bush administration made that particular move, I was filled with utter hate for a good few weeks. I know a vacant Supreme Court post is like a lottery ticket, but Roberts' appointment was one of the most disgusting and blatently transparent power-grabs I have ever seen.
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Re: Supreme Court to dismiss all pretense of democracy

Postby iembalm on Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:59 pm

connor wrote: I will piss her name in the toilet bowl--in print--every time I take a wizz.

:lol:
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Re: Supreme Court to dismiss all pretense of democracy

Postby Bradley R. Weissenberger on Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:10 pm

I'm not sure why this nonsense comes as a surprise to any of you.

I'm not a dismal guy. It's just that we're all completely fucked.
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Re: Supreme Court to dismiss all pretense of democracy

Postby Auntie Ovipositor on Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:38 pm

I don't think this is black and white.

There are a lot of legitimate questions about what the first amendment should cover, and while I don't buy the argument that corporations should have the same rights as people, speech by groups is a hard issue to tackle.

The ACLU agrees with that. They filed an amacus brief to that effect.

There are people within the ACLU who disagree with this position, of course. But there's a lot to debate here, and it's not a simple issue. The law currently casts a pretty wide net, and while I'm of the opinion that the country won't be missing out if there are fewer political ads run during the next election cycle, the legal basis for that is hard to structure as fair.

But that's really only scratching the surface. The ACLU brief touches on some important points and is more thorough than I could ever be. Ultimately, I think the best defense against shysters is education, not the government. That's tangential, but face it - the creeps will always find a way through. There is always a loophole, and they're dogged enough to find where it is. The fact that people can be lied to is not new and this legislation doesn't stop it. The only way around it is a well-informed public and a civic sense of ethical obligation.
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Re: Supreme Court to dismiss all pretense of democracy

Postby iembalm on Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:29 am

Wonder if we'll start seeing ads that say "Paid For by Monsanto" instead of "Paid For by People For the Production of Genetically-Engineered Good Things For Your Family's Table"?

This is how it's done. This is how power is maintained. Doesn't matter who's President? That fellow who appoints the Supreme Court? Riiiight.
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