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The Problem With Music: Still a Problem (Cracker/CVB ed.)

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Re: The Problem With Music: Still a Problem (Cracker/CVB ed.

Postby kerble on Wed May 27, 2015 2:40 pm

big_dave wrote:Some people have different experiences to others. I'm not doubting Kerble/Alex/whoever when they say things are easier for them and their friends, please don't doubt me.



This shit is never easy, big dave. I still have always worked my ass off to make the music I want to make. Everything else on top of that is gravy/magic.
kerble is right.
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Re: The Problem With Music: Still a Problem (Cracker/CVB ed.

Postby alex maiolo on Wed May 27, 2015 2:45 pm

Plain and simple, and as Flannel and Kerble have said, you can record something for next to free, and take it from there. Perhaps you, or someone else, will just put it up on the internet somewhere. Perhaps, someone who likes it will toss some money at it, and give you a deal. That may mean cleaning some things up, or having a guy like Dave Fridman mix it, so it competes even more. Maybe you'll re-record pretty much the whole damn thing.

But you never would have gotten then without recording your stuff in the first place, and that can be done for about 500 bucks in gear. That is often enough to produce the tracks that will go straight to mixing and mastering, nearly untouched, as it did with Tame Impala or Temples (hey, I did this one too!) - http://www.tapeop.com/interviews/107/temples/

In Ye Olden Tymes your 4-track musings would likely not have made it to the album, unless you were Guided By Voices and that was your thing. They never got as big as Tame Impala, and only parts of their records were demo quality. The rest were done in $1200/day studios. Even Springsteen's 4-track album didn't end up on the radio.



-A
dontfeartheringo wrote:If $100 is too much for you to spend on a microphone maybe you should find a new hobby. People like you seem to like Magic: The Gathering a lot.
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Re: The Problem With Music: Still a Problem (Cracker/CVB ed.

Postby alex maiolo on Wed May 27, 2015 2:48 pm

big_dave wrote:
alex maiolo wrote:Usually I'm right there with the 27 year olds when people 20 years older than them pull the "kids today" shit, but I'm going to act my age now, because I lived through it, like many of us here.

To make Innerspeaker for the cost of a few 57's, a Boss Digital recorder, and hours that weren't spent working a day job is a goddamn miracle. To imply, for a second, that this was the work of the leisured class is retarded.
Actually, sorry that insults retarded people, so I retract that.
"Time off?" Being in a band is hard work, so using your downtime in your hotel room, because you are on tour and can't sleep in your own bed, is not time off.


I meant taking time out of a job.


You mean, after you get off work, when most people are watching TV? Right before you go to sleep and get up to go to your job? That time off? Because that's when I make records.

-A
dontfeartheringo wrote:If $100 is too much for you to spend on a microphone maybe you should find a new hobby. People like you seem to like Magic: The Gathering a lot.
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Re: The Problem With Music: Still a Problem (Cracker/CVB ed.

Postby flanneljammies on Wed May 27, 2015 2:48 pm

I get where you're coming from Dave. There is certainly an element of class/privilege associated with means to make music. For those that were and are able to do it, it has become easier in objective terms. But because of increasing inequity and income disparity, the sheer numbers of people who can afford to do it, both in terms of income and opportunity costs, has decreased.

Oh and I think Tame Impala sucks.
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Re: The Problem With Music: Still a Problem (Cracker/CVB ed.

Postby alex maiolo on Wed May 27, 2015 2:58 pm

drcroc wrote: Let's just move on to something more interesting... how about SM58's?


If you don't know that these are essentially the same mics, wearing different clothing, for only slightly different applications, then might I suggest that you read up on 101 level stuff before you jump in and try to school people on anything related to making records?

-A
dontfeartheringo wrote:If $100 is too much for you to spend on a microphone maybe you should find a new hobby. People like you seem to like Magic: The Gathering a lot.
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Re: The Problem With Music: Still a Problem (Cracker/CVB ed.

Postby alex maiolo on Wed May 27, 2015 3:02 pm

flanneljammies wrote:I get where you're coming from Dave. There is certainly an element of class/privilege associated with means to make music. For those that were and are able to do it, it has become easier in objective terms. But because of increasing inequity and income disparity, the sheer numbers of people who can afford to do it, both in terms of income and opportunity costs, has decreased.


What? That's pretty much the opposite of my experience. Shit is so cheap now that even if you are skint people will just lend you stuff.

-A
dontfeartheringo wrote:If $100 is too much for you to spend on a microphone maybe you should find a new hobby. People like you seem to like Magic: The Gathering a lot.
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Re: The Problem With Music: Still a Problem (Cracker/CVB ed.

Postby flanneljammies on Wed May 27, 2015 3:08 pm

alex maiolo wrote:
flanneljammies wrote:I get where you're coming from Dave. There is certainly an element of class/privilege associated with means to make music. For those that were and are able to do it, it has become easier in objective terms. But because of increasing inequity and income disparity, the sheer numbers of people who can afford to do it, both in terms of income and opportunity costs, has decreased.


What? That's pretty much the opposite of my experience. Shit is so cheap now that even if you are skint people will just lend you stuff.

-A

My experience as well. I'm talking about people living well below the poverty line trying to feed families and keep themselves from getting evicted. People worried about having their water or heat shut off in communities that resemble warzones and sub-standard education with little hope of upward mobility.
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Re: The Problem With Music: Still a Problem (Cracker/CVB ed.

Postby alex maiolo on Wed May 27, 2015 3:22 pm

flanneljammies wrote:
alex maiolo wrote:
flanneljammies wrote:I get where you're coming from Dave. There is certainly an element of class/privilege associated with means to make music. For those that were and are able to do it, it has become easier in objective terms. But because of increasing inequity and income disparity, the sheer numbers of people who can afford to do it, both in terms of income and opportunity costs, has decreased.


What? That's pretty much the opposite of my experience. Shit is so cheap now that even if you are skint people will just lend you stuff.

-A

My experience as well. I'm talking about people living well below the poverty line trying to feed families and keep themselves from getting evicted. People worried about having their water or heat shut off in communities that resemble warzones and sub-standard education with little hope of upward mobility.


Sure, but we're talking Maslow's Hierarchy here.
People with little money have more opportunities to record now.
People who are destitute remain destitute.

-A
dontfeartheringo wrote:If $100 is too much for you to spend on a microphone maybe you should find a new hobby. People like you seem to like Magic: The Gathering a lot.
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Re: The Problem With Music: Still a Problem (Cracker/CVB ed.

Postby drcroc on Wed May 27, 2015 3:24 pm

alex maiolo wrote:
drcroc wrote: Let's just move on to something more interesting... how about SM58's?


If you don't know that these are essentially the same mics, wearing different clothing, for only slightly different applications, then might I suggest that you read up on 101 level stuff before you jump in and try to school people on anything related to making records?

-A


You put little sweaters and pants on your microphones? that's weird dude.
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Re: The Problem With Music: Still a Problem (Cracker/CVB ed.

Postby drcroc on Wed May 27, 2015 3:30 pm

Also for what it's worth, I didn't mean for this to devolve into a class warfare discussion, but rather, and my point is lost on the bottom of a few pages ago.

Does anyone have thoughts on the legitimacy through struggle (whether fictionalized or not) that is so common amongst musical acts with mass appeal in America?
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Re: The Problem With Music: Still a Problem (Cracker/CVB ed.

Postby 154 on Wed May 27, 2015 3:32 pm

In the early 2000s I could afford to use a local practice space with four-track and a PA, and go to a studio to dick about with noise, that seems very much a luxury today even though things are generally cheaper and communication is easier. Bands are passed up because places can't afford to put on shows or there too many bands with too little spaces to play.


Ah, c'mon. Most creatively driven people don't give up that easily. They move 2 neighborhoods over when gentrification catches up and their rents skyrocket. They play dive bars instead of clubs when the demand/availability makes sense and when that gets harder, they play art spaces and lofts. Maybe at some point they realize hauling their SVT stacks around is a luxury so they get a looper pedal & keyboard amp, and so on. I think it's the downside of 'everything being available to anyone all the time', but a lot of cool shit couldn't exist at any other time.

There are legitimate, probably sane reasons for throwing in the towel, but blaming socioeconomics seems like a cop out reason to do so.
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Re: The Problem With Music: Still a Problem (Cracker/CVB ed.

Postby alex maiolo on Wed May 27, 2015 3:42 pm

As usual, I'm with 154.

It's different. That's all.
In most cases better for those of us who are DIY. In some cases worse, but really just different.

Having been in bands since the 80's I'll say that I'm having better luck doing damn near everything now than I was in the 80's or 90's

-A
dontfeartheringo wrote:If $100 is too much for you to spend on a microphone maybe you should find a new hobby. People like you seem to like Magic: The Gathering a lot.
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Re: The Problem With Music: Still a Problem (Cracker/CVB ed.

Postby flanneljammies on Wed May 27, 2015 3:44 pm

drcroc wrote:Does anyone have thoughts on the legitimacy through struggle (whether fictionalized or not) that is so common amongst musical acts with mass appeal in America?

Yes, it's part of the myth-making PR. What of it?
Very few of us here give a shit about musical acts with mass appeal.
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Re: The Problem With Music: Still a Problem (Cracker/CVB ed.

Postby alex maiolo on Wed May 27, 2015 3:45 pm

As for costs, this is almost like the Spotify debate.
You make no money from Spotify, but you used to be in debt so sales didn't matter then anyway.
No change with the money, but you get free distribution.

OK, so practice spaces cost more, but now you can write and record at home, and pass stuff around.
Mainly, though, I just think that the cost to get a practice space is the same as it ever was, adjusting for inflation.

-A
Last edited by alex maiolo on Wed May 27, 2015 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
dontfeartheringo wrote:If $100 is too much for you to spend on a microphone maybe you should find a new hobby. People like you seem to like Magic: The Gathering a lot.
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Re: The Problem With Music: Still a Problem (Cracker/CVB ed.

Postby flanneljammies on Wed May 27, 2015 3:45 pm

alex maiolo wrote:Sure, but we're talking Maslow's Hierarchy here.
People with little money have more opportunities to record now.
People who are destitute remain destitute.

Agreed. But more people are destitute.
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Re: The Problem With Music: Still a Problem (Cracker/CVB ed.

Postby alex maiolo on Wed May 27, 2015 3:48 pm

flanneljammies wrote:
alex maiolo wrote:Sure, but we're talking Maslow's Hierarchy here.
People with little money have more opportunities to record now.
People who are destitute remain destitute.

Agreed. But more people are destitute.


While I understand, and agree, with this, I think we are talking about something much greater than who gets to make records.

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dontfeartheringo wrote:If $100 is too much for you to spend on a microphone maybe you should find a new hobby. People like you seem to like Magic: The Gathering a lot.
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Re: The Problem With Music: Still a Problem (Cracker/CVB ed.

Postby flanneljammies on Wed May 27, 2015 3:49 pm

big_dave wrote:...might not have much means to acquire those skills the first place because the class situation has radically changed for a lot of people.

Exactly my point.
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Re: The Problem With Music: Still a Problem (Cracker/CVB ed.

Postby Isabelle Gall on Wed May 27, 2015 3:54 pm

drcroc wrote:Does anyone have thoughts on the legitimacy through struggle (whether fictionalized or not) that is so common amongst musical acts with mass appeal in America?

Johnny used to work on the block.

Drake's wearing every single chain even when he's in the house.
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Re: The Problem With Music: Still a Problem (Cracker/CVB ed.

Postby 154 on Wed May 27, 2015 3:57 pm

big_dave wrote:Probably a really shit time to own a venue.


Right, and how is this supposed to stifle creativity? See you at the punk show, xNotACopBoston420x.
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Re: The Problem With Music: Still a Problem (Cracker/CVB ed.

Postby drcroc on Wed May 27, 2015 3:59 pm

flanneljammies wrote:Yes, it's part of the myth-making PR. What of it?


I think there has been a trickle-down effect of this requirement for a struggle-identity from the top (say, those with mass appeal) down to the independents, and this dishonesty or better yet, neuroticism in the form of "myth-making" as you put it, seems misinformed. Particularly now, in these unprecedented music recording/distro times.

Taking an oppositional bend from big_daves tangent on the socio-economic implications into music careers (regardless of length or perceived success) I would like to take a second to interject my own opinion on this particular talking point, which is basically (and I'm bringing it all back home here)... we all know that it does matter how much you spend on a recording as it relates to your credibility amongst peers and potential fans (regardless of class), but why should it matter how little you spend? That, good sirs, is my question. We all likely agree that you can have an astronomical budget and still be a legitimate/credible artist, but it seems to me that some of you FM think somehow credibility is built into microscopic budget. Drcroc, out.
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