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Former Harvey Danger Sideman: "Punk Rock Is Bullshit."

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Re: Former Harvey Danger Sideman: "Punk Rock Is Bullshit."

Postby lemur68 on Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:26 pm

big_dave wrote:Do you really think that when most people talk about DIY they mean Crass and the Ex? When the Guardian refered to the election of David Cameron as a "DIY Revolution" in 2010, what do you think they meant? They weren't talking about fixing up houses.


Well they sure as hell aren't thinking of THATCHER

Oh, right, the Guardian and their "DIY Revolution" thing. How could we have been so dense as to forget about that.
Last edited by lemur68 on Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Former Harvey Danger Sideman: "Punk Rock Is Bullshit."

Postby Bernardo on Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:27 pm

big_dave wrote:Do you really think that when most people talk about DIY they mean Crass and the Ex? When the Guardian refered to the election of David Cameron as a "DIY Revolution" in 2010, what do you think they meant? They weren't talking about fixing up houses.


I had no idea that was even a thing that happened. In Brazil there is only one prevalent context for the term "DIY" (which has an equivalent in portuguese), and it's, of course, not a widespread concept. Thing is, I don't seem to be the only one oblivious to where you're coming from.
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Re: Former Harvey Danger Sideman: "Punk Rock Is Bullshit."

Postby Bernardo on Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:35 pm

lemur68 wrote:
big_dave wrote:Do you really think that when most people talk about DIY they mean Crass and the Ex? When the Guardian refered to the election of David Cameron as a "DIY Revolution" in 2010, what do you think they meant? They weren't talking about fixing up houses.


Well they sure as hell aren't thinking of THATCHER

Oh, right, the Guardian and their "DIY Revolution" thing. How could we have been so dense as to forget about that.


What I'm trying to get through is perfectly encapsulated here.

My guess is this is why you come across as either completely enigmatic and / or condescending to a bunch of people, big_dave. You seem to expect your fairly unique perspective to be immediately accessible to anyone, but it's pretty alien. No, most people on this particular forum are not looking at DIY from that angle, you'd think it's obvious enough.
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Re: Former Harvey Danger Sideman: "Punk Rock Is Bullshit."

Postby 1009 on Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:45 pm

Guys, terms can have different references in different contexts. I've never read b_d condeming something like one of the BBQs, but I'd also think that he'd find the idea of them being DIY confusing. We did the BBQs "ourselves," of course, and there is something essentially DIY about such activity for us. On the other hand, DIY has associations with that "rugged individualism" so prized by GOP types and traced back to a certain strain in Emerson. There's the DIY of the gay poet who self-published his own work on his employer's press after hours and the DIY of Sam Walton. So it's hard to get behind DIY in some unequivocal way if one is aware of these mutually-present contexts.

There's no unbridgeable cultural divide here, just a slightly different reference point (and corresponding allegiances) with the "same" term (which is not to say, necessarily, that this divide breaks down to national borders or even genre conventions).
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Re: Former Harvey Danger Sideman: "Punk Rock Is Bullshit."

Postby Bernardo on Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:46 pm

big_dave wrote:Bernardo, if I specifically excepted punk rock when I said bad stuff about DIY, doesn't that make it clear that I'm talking about something other than punk rock bands when I say that I dislike DIY as an ethic?


Not necessarily, I can perfectly see how one would look at "punk" from the superficial aspect of the mohican, pins-and-needles, leather jacket thing, incompetent bands getting spat on by morons, etc, which makes Green Day "punk", and at "DIY" as the upside to the culture. It doesn't go without saying (look at the reaction you got), which is where this comes in:

big_dave wrote:Well, in the UK it's an extremely widespread concept and part of cultural vocabulary of the right. It's a frequent piece of rhetoric for rightwingers. After the punk/indie explosion, the UK's establishment struggled to recontextualize punk as a "do-it-yourself" movement rather than something radical coming from Britain's marginal communities. Likewise britpop, house, or any counter-culture tends to get sold back to us.

Here's the Thatcher quote:

Mrs. Thatcher moved swiftly. “I came to office with one deliberate intent,” she later said. “To change Britain from a dependent to a self-reliant society, from a give-it-to-me to a do-it-yourself nation.”


Maybe it's just me, but if you had STARTED your argument with this we'd be having an entirely different conversation. Personally, I was completely oblivious to this. Which makes me suspect it may not be as widespread an interpretation as you make it to be, but I really don't know.
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Re: Former Harvey Danger Sideman: "Punk Rock Is Bullshit."

Postby Bernardo on Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:56 pm

big_dave wrote:Jesus Forum Member Christ, Bernardo

Do I need every post backed up by a Prime Minister from now on? That's just a longer and boring version of my first post.


I think your idea of "fun" is not translating, but then again, it may be just me. For me you made little sense when you started, and made good sense when it got "boring".
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Re: Former Harvey Danger Sideman: "Punk Rock Is Bullshit."

Postby Angus Jung on Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:24 am

In the U.S., a Republican asshole talking about pulling oneself up by one's own bootstraps would not use the term "DIY." Even though he is (falsely and disingenuously) talking about "doing it yourself," i.e. not relying on handouts from the evil gubmint, the acronym is not generally used in that context in this country.

Here, it is used by punk rockers and, more recently, it has definitely crept into the mainstream world of people doing their own household projects and making crafts, etc. There's a Martha Stewart domestic/yuppie tinge to it, along with punk folks who still use it. That's not so terrible, I don't think.
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Re: Former Harvey Danger Sideman: "Punk Rock Is Bullshit."

Postby brisket on Sat Jan 03, 2015 8:45 am

Yeah, I think we all know now that b_d's mental associations with the phrase 'DIY' are different to most other people's. Which is fine.

What I'm really interested in, b_d, is whether you have a problem with the actual ethos as understood by most people here. The equivalence you draw between Thatcherism and DIY seems very flawed anyway, because it takes the Y in DIY too literally. DIY in practice is usually about building a community, because music is experienced and practiced communally and because it doesn't take long to realise that nothing will happen without support from others. It's not 'there is no society' at all, it's 'society is not working for us, let's create a small, ideal one.'

Bearing in mind that this is all happening within a sphere of aesthetic activity and has little bearing on whatever broader political commitments participants might have, I don't think it merits the same complaints of copping out or escapism that you might direct at eg a utopian commune. Politically, it is important for me to consider the whole of society and not just my small cadre of mates, because the material wellbeing of all people is important; artistically, I'm in a minority and probably always will be, and I feel no guilt at 'opting out' of an industry that will never share my interests or priorities. Should I try and change the industry? Why? Most people will never want what I want from it. I wouldn't even be doing them good.
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Re: Former Harvey Danger Sideman: "Punk Rock Is Bullshit."

Postby Neuloveyou on Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:22 am

Here I come again, in my role as big_dave's hype-man. I don't really see a huge amount of difference between being someone like Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall or Kirstie Allsop and Ian MacKaye. It's all small business at the end of the day isn't it?

Nothing wrong with it, but I don't get the huge fuss about DIY or why setting up a punk rock show/label is necessarily in of itself any more laudable or morally involved than selling china pigs made by middle-aged housewives in Kent. Probably a failing on my part, related to my never having been anywhere or done anything.
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Re: Former Harvey Danger Sideman: "Punk Rock Is Bullshit."

Postby Bernardo on Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:34 am

It's what made the entire subculture we're in viable. This is sort of like saying you don't see why you should value the life of a human any higher than the one of an ant. Being a human I have to confess to having a bias here.
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Re: Former Harvey Danger Sideman: "Punk Rock Is Bullshit."

Postby Neuloveyou on Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:45 am

Image

Who are the humans and who are the ants? Is DIY the humans and everyone else the ants?
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Re: Former Harvey Danger Sideman: "Punk Rock Is Bullshit."

Postby brisket on Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:46 am

It might be comparable to Hugh F-W setting up an ethical meat distribution company or something -- a situation where the owners of the business have social/ethical/aesthetic concerns that override financial ones. Which is an admirable thing, isn't it? Finding a way to operate within capitalism without buying into its amorality.

And DIY isn't admirable because punk music is an inherent moral good, but because it's a demonstration of people putting time and effort and money into an enterprise with no real expectation of profit. Which is refreshing and admirable in our society -- I also admire people who volunteer at local libraries, who campaign on boring but necessary local issues, etc, for the same reason.
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Re: Former Harvey Danger Sideman: "Punk Rock Is Bullshit."

Postby Bernardo on Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:48 am

Neuloveyou wrote:Who are the humans and who are the ants? Is DIY the humans and everyone else the ants?


Yeah, that's what I meant.
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Re: Former Harvey Danger Sideman: "Punk Rock Is Bullshit."

Postby Neuloveyou on Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:49 am

Smashing, sounds great. Thanks for explaining it.
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Re: Former Harvey Danger Sideman: "Punk Rock Is Bullshit."

Postby jeff_fox on Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:54 am

Can we just agree to call it "DIO" (do it OURSELVES) from here on out so this guy will chill out. Another amusing thread all shitted up.

Or I can start to relentlessly argue that jam bands are the only TRUE punks left. Your choice.
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Re: Former Harvey Danger Sideman: "Punk Rock Is Bullshit."

Postby Neuloveyou on Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:00 am

Which guy? Not me hopefully, I didn't mean to shit anything up. Sorry if I did.
I would be interested in hearing your jam band thesis, hopefully this will lead to a 100 page thread about the true meaning of the word jam. Fruit preserve or genre?
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Re: Former Harvey Danger Sideman: "Punk Rock Is Bullshit."

Postby numberthirty on Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:04 am

jeff_fox wrote:Can we just agree to call it "DIO" (do it OURSELVES) from here on out so this guy will chill out. Another amusing thread all shitted up.

Or I can start to relentlessly argue that jam bands are the only TRUE punks left. Your choice.


Now, Doug Irwin/Frank Zappa? We could get relentless.
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Re: Former Harvey Danger Sideman: "Punk Rock Is Bullshit."

Postby M.H on Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:35 am

Neuloveyou wrote: Nothing wrong with it, but I don't get the huge fuss about DIY or why setting up a punk rock show/label is necessarily in of itself any more laudable or morally involved than selling china pigs made by middle-aged housewives in Kent.


It may have something to do with the life changing art that those shows/labels delivered, especially during those impressionable teenage years. That music and the world that existed around it meant more to me than other object of economic exchange or decoration. Nothing empowered me more when I was in my teens. It was a life changing event realising that I could do that too.

I suspect this sentiment is a total cliche on this board, but knowing that bands like Black Flag or Throbbing Gristle (or insert band/label here) were able to change their culture by their own hard work (not relying on cultural arbiters) inspired me to work harder to make bolder art. I know I'm evangelising, but the DIY scene, especially my naive teenage interpretation of it, made me who I am. I hope some 13 year old somewhere is freaking out over Minor Threat the way I did, and not only what they did but how they did it. What could be more laudable?
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Re: Former Harvey Danger Sideman: "Punk Rock Is Bullshit."

Postby Bernardo on Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:44 am

Kind of like homemade pottery, then.
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Re: Former Harvey Danger Sideman: "Punk Rock Is Bullshit."

Postby zom-zom on Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:49 am

DYI guys. Do yourself in.
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