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Shooting at Charlie Hebdo, Paris

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo, Paris

Postby numberthirty on Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:54 pm

The logical "rights/responsibilities" strong arming would seem to be going after religious groups way before you go after free speech/expression rights.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo, Paris

Postby harpseal2 on Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:13 pm

After reading most of this thread, I gotta say.

I agree with FM Cranius and FM big_dave.

Long story short; They knew something bad would have come out of it. Why would you intentionally put volatile pictures in your mag to upset muslims in hostile times like these?

No, they should not have been killed for it. There is no fucking way that is reasonable. They shouldn't have died, and it's a total tragedy that they died. But I mean, really. Muslims are fucking insane. I'm surprised they didn't decide to bomb South Park when they did that episode about Muhammad or whatever.

So as I said, why kick the hornet's nest, when you're only gonna get stung?
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo, Paris

Postby feelitclosingin on Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:27 pm

Fuckin muslims are lucky they DIDNT fuck with south park yo. Cuz THEN we'll see who's crazy
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo, Paris

Postby Superking on Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:40 pm

Oy vey...
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo, Paris

Postby M.H on Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:44 pm

harpseal2 wrote: So as I said, why kick the hornet's nest, when you're only gonna get stung?


Because a mark of a civilised society is ability to openly voice dissent and disagreement without fear of violent reprisal.

This is better than a society ruled by barbarism and terror, and these values should be defended for it.

I saw an old interview with Stéphane Charbonnier this evening. "I'd rather die than live like a rat", he said. You don't have to admire Charlie Hebdo's crude and caustic approach, but to attempt to mitigate murderous censorship in these circumstances is pretty cowardly.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo, Paris

Postby don.chaney on Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:18 pm

M.H wrote:...a civilised society...is better than a society ruled by barbarism and terror, and these values should be defended for it.

How about a "civilized society" fueled by barbarism and terror?
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo, Paris

Postby Auntie Ovipositor on Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:47 pm

So... Cranius' avatar representing a revolutionary-turned-dictator who tortured and killed political opponents (as well as press critics, labor union leaders, and other "counter-revolutionaries" who offended his sensibilities) is fine, but satirical drawings of hook-nosed Jews behaving badly are off limits. Weird rules, but okay.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo, Paris

Postby yaledelay on Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:51 pm

harpseal2 wrote:So as I said, why kick the hornet's nest, when you're only gonna get stung?



It is humors job to kick the hornet's nest.

Plain and simple.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo, Paris

Postby jimmy two hands on Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:35 pm

yaledelay wrote:It is humors job to kick the hornet's nest.

Plain and simple.


This.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo, Paris

Postby Bernardo on Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:53 am

I'm impressed at how many people are taking this episode at face value. I'm also on the Cranius / big_dave general camp here. This is the exact sort of thing where it is totally the case of starting by looking at the big picture, and I can't believe the straw man of "are you saying these people deserved to die" came up, that was terrible.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo, Paris

Postby jimmy two hands on Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:16 am

big_dave wrote:No, but with half the internet covered in JE SUIS CHARLIE and FREE SPEECH hysteria, can this forum actually look at the images in question and see that they're not just satires of organized religion but something designed to test the limits of what is acceptable, with complete knowledge that reprisal were likely?

Yep. And they should be able to do this without fear of being murdered. The way you refer to free speech "hysteria" is kind of sickening.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo, Paris

Postby harpseal2 on Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:21 am

yaledelay wrote:It is humors job to kick the hornet's nest.

Plain and simple.


Not really.

I've never understood this viewpoint. Why can't something be funny without being offensive? This is an extremely stupid viewpoint in my opinion.

Humour can be achieved without offending people.

M.H wrote:Because a mark of a civilised society is ability to openly voice dissent and disagreement without fear of violent reprisal.

This is better than a society ruled by barbarism and terror, and these values should be defended for it.


Well, where do we draw the line? Pardon my lack of ability to speak French, but Hebdo's cartoons were provocative and racist, however against racism they may say they are. Should racism be allowed, under freedom of speech? Should misogyny be allowed?

And get real, you already live in a society ruled by barbarism and terror. It's called the American Police force.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo, Paris

Postby yaledelay on Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:24 am

harpseal2 wrote:
yaledelay wrote:It is humors job to kick the hornet's nest.

Plain and simple.


Not really.

I've never understood this viewpoint. Why can't something be funny without being offensive? This is an extremely stupid viewpoint in my opinion.

Humour can be achieved without offending people.

M.H wrote:.


Where did I say you have to be offensive? - Oh wait, I didn't at all.

John Steward, Steven Colbert, John Oliver - All kick the fuck out of the hornet's nest, and 90% of the time they do not have to use 'bad" words.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo, Paris

Postby numberthirty on Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:26 am

harpseal2 wrote:And get real, you already live in a society ruled by barbarism and terror. It's called the American Police force.


I'll have to tell Easy to watch his ass.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo, Paris

Postby harpseal2 on Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:29 am

yaledelay wrote:
harpseal2 wrote:
yaledelay wrote:It is humors job to kick the hornet's nest.

Plain and simple.


Not really.

I've never understood this viewpoint. Why can't something be funny without being offensive? This is an extremely stupid viewpoint in my opinion.

Humour can be achieved without offending people.



Where did I say you have to be offensive? - Oh wait, I didn't at all.

John Steward, Steven Colbert, John Oliver - All kick the fuck out of the hornet's nest, and 90% of the time they do not have to use 'bad" words.


That's what I meant by saying it was kicking the hornet's nest. I would have assumed you did too. And I did not mean by saying "Fuck", I meant by being outrageous and racist.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo, Paris

Postby mt on Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:33 am

Bernardo wrote:I'm impressed at how many people are taking this episode at face value. I'm also on the Cranius / big_dave general camp here. This is the exact sort of thing where it is totally the case of starting by looking at the big picture


Why does it have to be either religious craziness or political/terrorist calculation? It is possible (I would say likely) that these killings both had a religious motive and served a political end, right? The former provides cover for the latter in a lot of ways, I think.

Maybe I am wrong, but to me it seems mostly like these people believe the stuff they are saying.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo, Paris

Postby punch_the_lion on Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:36 am

Bernardo wrote:I'm impressed at how many people are taking this episode at face value. I'm also on the Cranius / big_dave general camp here. This is the exact sort of thing where it is totally the case of starting by looking at the big picture, and I can't believe the straw man of "are you saying these people deserved to die" came up, that was terrible.



So what is the "big picture"? Who gets to decide what's appropriate and how it should be regulated? Slippery slope. I personally find the racial caricatures posted here to be crude and tasteless. Doesn't mean the publication should not make them. I'll just ignore it.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo, Paris

Postby Andrew. on Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:38 am

Tom Engelhardt wrote:Final comment of the day: while they were knocking off part of the staff of a satirical magazine in France, those couple of (assumedly) fundamentalist Muslim killers undoubtedly managed to make life for the Muslim and Muslim immigrant population in France, not to say throughout Europe, a guaranteed misery; and they helped insure the further rise of a grim right-wing mini-wave across that continent. That is a day's work for sure in a world from hell.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo, Paris

Postby Bernardo on Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:40 am

jimmy two hands wrote:
big_dave wrote:No, but with half the internet covered in JE SUIS CHARLIE and FREE SPEECH hysteria, can this forum actually look at the images in question and see that they're not just satires of organized religion but something designed to test the limits of what is acceptable, with complete knowledge that reprisal were likely?

Yep. And they should be able to do this without fear of being murdered.


You should also totally be able to take a walk in a dangerous part of town without suffering any sort of violence, or being robbed, but there are a lot of things wrong with how society works that makes it so that there is a dangerous part of town to avoid. So nobody (who's not an idiot) merely states that it's just wrong and unacceptable that you can't take a stroll across Shitsville Heights at 3 a.m., as we get the big picture. It's not a plain matter of good vs evil civilization vs barbarism, etc. I don't see how the same won't apply to something like this.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo, Paris

Postby Bernardo on Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:44 am

punch_the_lion wrote:So what is the "big picture"? Who gets to decide what's appropriate and how it should be regulated?


Nobody really does, at least not in a direct, open manner.
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