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*sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby Gramsci on Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:18 pm

warmowski wrote:Russian- and Chinese-registered IP addresses hit my servers looking for weaknesses at the rate of more than one every few seconds, and I don't run anything resembling a target. The probes are a fact of internet weather. I'm sure they happen to EA's host. They happen within seconds of an IP address accepting packets...

-r


Um... US NSA Bulk data collection is international and internal. UK completely collaborating as are the other Five Eyes Countries.

The US drone program.

Is there a moral equivalence between the US it’s allies and Russia. Absolutely, probably the US is far worse.

I couldn’t give two fucks about this Russia non-story. To me it’s just the Tories shouting “look over there!” While they screw the rest of us over.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby Anthony Flack on Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:47 pm

The UK government didn't engineer this and are far too inept to turn it to their advantage. Whatever is going on, it is playing out as a part of Putin's strategy, not the Tories'.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby Gramsci on Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:34 am

Anthony Flack wrote:The UK government didn't engineer this and are far too inept to turn it to their advantage. Whatever is going on, it is playing out as a part of Putin's strategy, not the Tories'.


I’m not saying the Tories “did” this. I’m saying they’re using events as a distraction.

Comments that Russia is a uniquely toxic player on the international stage simple isn’t true. The United States is by far the worst state when it comes to interference, assassination and spying. It would surprise me if anyone here would regard that as a controversial position.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby Anthony Flack on Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:21 am

That's a straw man. Nobody ever said the Russian government was "uniquely toxic" or the only bad actor in international affairs. But they sure as shit aren't the good guys.

This was a Russian attack and it was done in such a way so that everybody knows it's a Russian attack. It was a calculated and deliberate fuck you to the weak and friendless UK, who are obliged to look like they're doing something about it but in reality can't do fuck all, and must know that any reaction on their part is dancing to Putin's fiddle anyway.

It's not going to work as a diversion from the Brexit omnishambles, which regardless of any short-term distractions is not going anywhere and will still a dead albatross around the government's neck in six weeks, six months, a year, two years.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby OrthodoxEaster on Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:58 am

Gramsci wrote:Comments that Russia is a uniquely toxic player on the international stage simple isn’t true. The United States is by far the worst state when it comes to interference, assassination and spying. It would surprise me if anyone here would regard that as a controversial position.


Yeah, but how many people w/whom you regularly interact come from a part of the world w/which Russia has fucked? If you answered "relatively few," it's primarily b/c of who you are and where you live. The fact that you probably encounter a greater number of Central Americans than Central Asians perhaps whitewashes Russian atrocities for you.

Russia is indeed a "uniquely toxic" player on the world stage. It's not just some scapegoat. Which, of course, does not automatically make the United States or its foreign policy benevolent. Not one bit. It's a pretty unique and toxic player unto itself. Just different.

But the only reason Russia's actions don't sting more is b/c Russia, at present, has rather limited means. Russia only seems less fucked-up internationally b/c of its history of ineptitude, mismanagement, and losses. But for such a poor country w/such little influence, the amount of resources it spends on interference, assassination, spying, war-waging, and--I stress this last part--outright occupation of sovereign nations is quite staggering.

The way the U.S. dealt w/say, the Dakota Pipeline was heavy-handed and terrible but it's not nearly akin to say, Putin's total and ruthless subjugation of Chechnya. American operations in Afghanistan are wretched but were they any worse than Russia's unprovoked war and attempt to turn this same country into its colony not long before? I could go on, tit for tat. And I should remind you that the U.S. has a lot more money to burn on foreign meddling than Russia does. Which means Russia makes it more of a priority, at the expense of its far needier everyday citizens.

Never mind that you probably hold the U.S. to a much higher standard than you hold Russia. B/c, until quite recently, you probably aren't so impacted by the countries Russia has been fucking over. (At least, for now.)

This is not remotely a defense of U.S. foreign policy or a takedown of your point of view. But America-bashing seems so easy and sexy b/c the country has a much higher profile, you're probably living in its sphere of influence, and it is a relatively prosperous evergreen target for both the global far left and far right.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby P.J. Craven on Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:34 pm

If people don't understand the difference between Britain, the United States, and Russia...hmm...I would feel badly for you, but you're enabling autocracy. Same people who enabled the moron who is currently the most powerful person/moron on Earth.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby Anthony Flack on Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:25 pm

I had a student once who was from Latvia, land of potato. Guess what country he hated?
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby OrthodoxEaster on Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:42 pm

Anthony Flack wrote:land of potato.


Yep.

Now, ok, someone will come back and say that Latvia only has a couple million people. Drop in bucket. But when you talk about the 32 million in Uzbekistan, the 45 million in Ukraine... People just don't realize the sheer size of some of these relatively voiceless nations, which have been ruthlessly exploited and even subjugated by Russia and/or its foreign policy since czarist times. And still today, independence notwithstanding.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby Boombats on Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:43 pm

OrthodoxEaster wrote:
Anthony Flack wrote:land of potato.


Yep.

Now, ok, someone will come back and say that Latvia only has a couple million people. Drop in bucket.

But this drop, is best drop in bucket! Is drop of potato juice.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby OrthodoxEaster on Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:03 pm

Boombats wrote:
OrthodoxEaster wrote:
Anthony Flack wrote:land of potato.


Yep.

Now, ok, someone will come back and say that Latvia only has a couple million people. Drop in bucket.

But this drop, is best drop in bucket! Is drop of potato juice.


Potato juice? If is potato juice, now bucket is filled w/wodka!! Forget pain. We drink!
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby Boombats on Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:10 pm

OrthodoxEaster wrote:
Boombats wrote:
OrthodoxEaster wrote:
Anthony Flack wrote:land of potato.


Yep.

Now, ok, someone will come back and say that Latvia only has a couple million people. Drop in bucket.

But this drop, is best drop in bucket! Is drop of potato juice.


Potato juice? If is potato juice, now bucket is filled w/wodka!! Forget pain. We drink!

Was only one drop. Was drunk. Now drop in bucket, is single tear.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby OrthodoxEaster on Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:49 pm

Boombats wrote:
OrthodoxEaster wrote:
Boombats wrote:
OrthodoxEaster wrote:
Anthony Flack wrote:land of potato.


Yep.

Now, ok, someone will come back and say that Latvia only has a couple million people. Drop in bucket.

But this drop, is best drop in bucket! Is drop of potato juice.


Potato juice? If is potato juice, now bucket is filled w/wodka!! Forget pain. We drink!

Was only one drop. Was drunk. Now drop in bucket, is single tear.


Tear of Latvian peasant is finest drunk in whole ex-USSR. More pure than blood of Kazakh. Less bitter than urine of Tatar.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby Anthony Flack on Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:24 pm

Purest tear is noble tear of President Putin, shed over western misunderstanding of Russian good intentions.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby Gramsci on Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:04 am

P.J. Craven wrote:Disturbing thread. I feel like extreme, internal cynicism about the United States and Britain has led us to a place where countries like Russia can be viewed on the same moral plane and get away with, well, murder.


Anthony, this is the comment that sent me down the “yeah, but what about US” path.

I realise pointing out others’ flaws doesn’t excuse the Russian government’s behaviour. What irks me, and why I do think it’s important to point out the hypocrisy of western politicians and the media on Russia is that our governments really are far worse and we are being distracted, deliberately, with this Russia Back to Being the Bogeyman routine.

I was living in Brazil during yet another US backed coup occurred. This isn’t conspiratorial claptrap, there is direct evidence the United States has been collaborating with rightwing politicians to overthrow a centre-left government almost entirely due to that government’s stanch on public ownership of Brazil’s oil reserves. Surprise! While I was there the US also backed coups in Paraguay and Honduras and meddled with elections in a number of other governments. Frighteningly, supposed liberal media like The Guardian and Washington Post wholeheartedly backed the far right in Brazil.

The Russian government is without a doubt a class A asshole, but the reason we are being told to get freaked out is diversionary. We owe it to the world to get our shit together rather than being distracted and claiming we are not morally equivalent. I’d say our governments aren’t morally equivalent to Russia’s, I’d say they are far worse.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby gnangle on Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:34 am

all good points and true for sure, but that still doesnt preclude us from moving forward with better solutions to the problems that lead the US to interfere in those places in the first place. when it comes down to it the people who are deciding and enacting those coups whether soft or hard, or just throwing money at the side they choose, its hopefully done with the best interest of the country that stands to benefit and that is where the error begins. if we were a more sophisticated and global minded species ,who could help one another instead of vying for an imaginary position of power, then maybe the road to hell wouldnt be so nicely paved.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby curry pervert on Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:40 am

Wood Goblin wrote:While the line between the Trump campaign and Russia on these issues is blurry, the line between Wikileaks and Russia isn’t and hasn’t been for some time. It ceased to be a conspiracy theory when the paper trail was discovered.


Can you post some links to this paper trail? I'd be interested to read that.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby kokorodoko on Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:57 am

I'm on the side of Gramsci here, but it also shows the problem in that we immediately get into "this country, that country". Someone mentioned that this will play out in Putin's favour since he can use the ensuing hostility against Russia to further secure his power... Possible. But it also plays out in favour of European powers, whose favourite pastime over the last couple of years has been to play up the Russian threat. A vigorous campaign to join NATO is ongoing in Sweden, and they almost spell it out how they hope to stir in the collective mind of the people the idea of Russia as "the eternal enemy". So sad to watch.

Sadder still since Putin's Russia DOES represent a real threat. It signifies the increasing tendency towards "illiberal capitalism", is loved by the far-right, and so on. But is any western leader ready to put up a credible defense against this? Doubtful. It's good imperialism vs. bad imperialism, once again.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby Gramsci on Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:01 am

If you’re from Latin America and even vaguely leftwing or propose national control over your resources the United States represents a real threat.

http://www.brasilwire.com/scandal-over- ... hes-court/

Russia is a toxic shitshow, without a doubt. I just have extreme suspicion that our leaders and media pointing this out as a distraction, not because they give a fuck.

Case point Saudi Arabia.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby matthew on Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:03 am

Gramsci wrote:Russia is a toxic shitshow, without a doubt. I just have extreme suspicion that our leaders and media pointing this out as a distraction, not because they give a fuck.


Certainly.

No one in their right mind and who has any decent understanding thinks Russia is "holy" or that Putin is some saintly czar- quite the contrary. Russia is rife with errors and problems. Putin has almost certainly done some shady stuff during his tenures as leader, and I seriously question whether he's truly dropped his Soviet communist/KGB baggage based on certain, confused and confuse-ing things he has said as of late. There is also the fact the the Russian Orthodox Church and hierarchy has long been basically the court chaplaincy (which is to say the tool) of the secular authorities in Russia, be it the czars, the Soviets, or the post-Soviet regimes including Putin's. That is perhaps the greatest, most far-reaching, and yet most overlooked error of Russia. So yeah...Russia has plenty of internal issues, and those are just for starters. But all that notwithstanding, neither he nor, I imagine, any sane, patriotic Russian is hell-bent on global domination or ruthless expansion such as the globalists and neoconservatives who demonize both are themselves. The latter are the true enemies of the peace between peoples and nations, not Russia, its leader nor the Russian people as a whole. Russia might be bad, even very bad, but the latter are manifest evil and know an ambition which Putin and Russia simply does not manifestly have and are willing to dangle the human race over the precipice of nuclear war to advance their ambitions.
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Re: *sigh* Russia back to being the bogeyman again

Postby OrthodoxEaster on Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:14 pm

matthew wrote:But all that notwithstanding, neither he nor, I imagine, any sane, patriotic Russian is hell-bent on global domination or ruthless expansion such as the globalists and neoconservatives who demonize both are themselves. The latter are the true enemies of the peace between peoples and nations, not Russia, its leader nor the Russian people as a whole. Russia might be bad, even very bad, but the latter are manifest evil and know an ambition which Putin and Russia simply does not manifestly have and are willing to dangle the human race over the precipice of nuclear war to advance their ambitions.


I don't think anyone here particularly loves Russia or Putin. I just think they're naive about the country's global entanglements, ambitions, and potential.

Russia is likely worse than the West, in terms of its conduct. The only thing that seems to keep Putin in check is that he's making plenty of money for himself, along w/the fact that the country's infrastructure is poor and mismanaged, thus limiting its global reach and potential for expansion. But what happens if it gets its shit together? Plus, it's a plenty big empire already. Check the map.

You don't think Russia's constant violations of Scandinavian and Baltic airspace; unprovoked invasions and frozen-conflict occupations of tracts of Ukraine, Georgia, and Moldova; total flattening of human rights in Chechnya; disregard for the environment; lousy track record on gays, free speech, and ethnic minorities; Middle Eastern adventurism in Syria and elsewhere; saber-rattling boasts of "invincible" nuclear missiles w/international reach; election meddling and regime-propping in Eastern Europe, Central Europe, and Central Asia; and massive fucking empire involving numerous quasi-colony "republics" under Moscow's yoke are as awful if not worse than anything a Western power has to offer?

You don't think the oligarchs w/whom Putin surrounds himself are not globalists, w/all their offshore money, real estate, and business interests?

You don't think Russia would seem much more threatening as a world player and even more expansionist than it already is were the country not merely too cash-poor and mismanaged to have a larger international influence?

Personally, I think you're kidding yourself.
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