home studios equipment staff/friends booking/rates for sale forum contact

Little tech questions from your day

All your geeky questions about electronics, microphones, tape machines, etc.

Moderators: kerble, Electrical-Staff

Re: Little tech questions from your day

Postby Antero on Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:52 am

Riff Magnum wrote:
steve wrote:Don't know if this has been mentioned RE: neck pickups being louder, but the physical motion of the strings near the bridge is a much smaller excursion than by the neck, so the current going through the bobbins is going to be lower because the flux lines of the magnetic field are not being cut by the conductor (string) as much.

If you think of the string oscillating as a jump-rope or something similar, the bridge pickups are near the nodes (stationary points) so the string is moving less relative to the magnetic field of the pickup, so the output is lower. As you move inward along the length of the oscillation, the movement of the strings is greater, so the generating effect of the coil is greater and the output is louder.



So bridge pickups generally being louder is totally the result of the way they're wound? Or are bridge pickups just perceived to be louder because of the different frequencies being attenuated?

Generally speaking bridge pickups are also set up closer to the strings and neck pickups further away to compensate for the difference, also.
Is you crazy baby, I gots to grind
Antero
World's Greatest Lover
World's Greatest Lover
 
Posts: 11152
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 8:54 am
Location: Hustle City, CA

Re: Little tech questions from your day

Postby Dr Tony Balls on Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:22 am

Antero wrote:
Riff Magnum wrote:
steve wrote:Don't know if this has been mentioned RE: neck pickups being louder, but the physical motion of the strings near the bridge is a much smaller excursion than by the neck, so the current going through the bobbins is going to be lower because the flux lines of the magnetic field are not being cut by the conductor (string) as much.

If you think of the string oscillating as a jump-rope or something similar, the bridge pickups are near the nodes (stationary points) so the string is moving less relative to the magnetic field of the pickup, so the output is lower. As you move inward along the length of the oscillation, the movement of the strings is greater, so the generating effect of the coil is greater and the output is louder.



So bridge pickups generally being louder is totally the result of the way they're wound? Or are bridge pickups just perceived to be louder because of the different frequencies being attenuated?

Generally speaking bridge pickups are also set up closer to the strings and neck pickups further away to compensate for the difference, also.


Also, at least in modern times, pickups are often sold as "neck" or "bridge" and slightly overwound on the bridge to account for this.
I build effects and amps and do custom builds to order. Boom.
Site: http://ballseffects.com/
User avatar
Dr Tony Balls
not wearing any pants
not wearing any pants
 
Posts: 1323
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:14 pm
Location: Brooklyn, NYC

Re: Little tech questions from your day

Postby llllllllllllllllllllllll on Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:49 am

Yeah, in a lot of vintage guitars the pickups measure about the same so the bridge pickup sounds a little weaker when you switch to it
llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
User avatar
llllllllllllllllllllllll
Man with Encyclopedic Knowledge
Man with Encyclopedic Knowledge
 
Posts: 5337
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:32 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Little tech questions from your day

Postby andyman on Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:05 pm

Nuts to think the original owner had it set up like that. He took the funnest part of an SG out of the SG..
offal wrote:I just want to be able to play bitchin' single-stroke rolls before I die
User avatar
andyman
Humankind's Greatest Musical Genius
Humankind's Greatest Musical Genius
 
Posts: 4158
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:31 am
Location: Cambridge

Re: Little tech questions from your day

Postby Riff Magnum on Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:50 pm

Those of you that are good at fixing and making guitars, could you point me in the right direction of books, online stuff, classes, basic tools, guidance, pointers, tips that might help me start doing stuff like this. My guitar tech said "buy shitty guitars on craigslist and fuck with them." Which I think is good advice, but I feel I might be pissing in the wind without any basic foundation of knowledge and maybe a basic tool kit.
There's a couple luthier schools around here but fuck, it's a big time and money commitment. I'm hoping to get good enough that my guitar tech might take me on as an apprentice when he's super busy. He's a bit of a curmudgeon but we have a good relationship.
User avatar
Riff Magnum
Saint Who Rules w/ Extensive Magnanimity
Saint Who Rules w/ Extensive Magnanimity
 
Posts: 2054
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:58 am
Location: Fort Worthless

Re: Little tech questions from your day

Postby Dr Tony Balls on Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:20 pm

Riff Magnum wrote:Those of you that are good at fixing and making guitars, could you point me in the right direction of books, online stuff, classes, basic tools, guidance, pointers, tips that might help me start doing stuff like this. My guitar tech said "buy shitty guitars on craigslist and fuck with them." Which I think is good advice, but I feel I might be pissing in the wind without any basic foundation of knowledge and maybe a basic tool kit.
There's a couple luthier schools around here but fuck, it's a big time and money commitment. I'm hoping to get good enough that my guitar tech might take me on as an apprentice when he's super busy. He's a bit of a curmudgeon but we have a good relationship.


Start small (and on cheap guitars) and work your way up. Are you confident on truss rod adjustment? If not, start there. Then get into saddle adjustment and intonation. After that, get yourself and some files and try cutting a new nut. You'll get there in no time, just start small and work into it.
I build effects and amps and do custom builds to order. Boom.
Site: http://ballseffects.com/
User avatar
Dr Tony Balls
not wearing any pants
not wearing any pants
 
Posts: 1323
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:14 pm
Location: Brooklyn, NYC

Re: Little tech questions from your day

Postby eliya on Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:18 pm

The thing with setups is that when you start you're not sure what's a good setup. You know when a guitar plays nice, but you're not sure how to get there, and it can be hard to figure it out when starting out because every change you make to the guitar is incremental. For that, a book like Dan Erlewine's Guitar Player Repair Guide will be useful because he gives measurements for what he considers a good setup. So if you can get your guitar to those specs you know you're on the right track.


StewMac has a lot of little tutorial videos where they show how to do all kinds of different repairs. Those are good. They also sell instructional DVDs that are useful if you start out on your own.


Frank Ford is one of the best luthiers/repair persons in the world. He owns Gryphon Stringed Instruments in Palo Alto. His website is old school HTML site but full of gems of knowledge. Any sort of repair you might think of, he's performed it many times and put up an extensive post (with pictures) explaining how to do it. A lot of what I learned is from reading everything on frets.com.

He also runs this forum for luthiers. You should lurk there for a while before asking questions. It's not a messageboard for hobbyists but for professionals who make a living from building or repairing instruments. They don't take kindly to people asking "how do I make a nut from scratch?" so don't do that.

As far as tools:

Get good screwdrivers. Some big flatheads and phillips for adjusting truss rods. Also get small ones for adjustments at the bridge, tightening pickguard screws, tuner screws, etc. StewMac has a little kit that will cover the small screwdrivers for you.

Get some socket hex wrenches for Gibson style truss rods. I think Gibson is 5/16"? You can also get these from StewMac. I would get them at the local hardware store as you need them.

Get a set of metric and imperial (inches) allen (hex) wrenches. From the teeniest to the biggest. They'll will be useful for adjustments at the bridge (like saddle height on Fenders). Get all the sizes and both metric and imperial because guitars tend to have both types and all kinds of sizes. Also, they will always be useful around the house.

Get a good 6" ruler. Like one that doesn't have its edges at an angle. StewMac sells nice ones. You will use them to check the action at the 12th fret.

If you want to make adjustments at the nut, then get a set of nut files, and yeah StewMac sells them too. Also, Frank Ford has a pretty good guideline for checking action at the nut.

At the intermediate level you will do fret work, and that requires more tools. See how you like basic setups first before you jump to doing fretwork.

StewMac will have any tool you might need (and ones that no one should really need). They will also be more expensive if you bought that same tool at the hardware store. Their tools are nice, but most of my tools are from the hardware store. If you buy files for nuts, get them from StewMac as opposed to some random seller on eBay.

If you get into it, I can give you some pointers to getting good consistent setups. I'll save it for another post because this one's too long as it is.

Riff Magnum wrote:He's a bit of a curmudgeon


Yeah man, is the sky blue?
User avatar
eliya
Power Incarnate with Endless Creativity
Power Incarnate with Endless Creativity
 
Posts: 7632
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:37 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Little tech questions from your day

Postby Tommy on Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:45 pm

eliya wrote:Dan Erlewine's Guitar Player Repair Guide


I'll second this one. It was a major help when I knew jack shit.
User avatar
Tommy
Guardian Diety of the Planet
Guardian Diety of the Planet
 
Posts: 5545
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 1:30 pm
Location: Logan Square, Chicago, IL

Re: Little tech questions from your day

Postby Madman Munt on Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:24 pm

Tommy wrote:
eliya wrote:Dan Erlewine's Guitar Player Repair Guide


I'll second this one. It was a major help when I knew jack shit.


Thirded. Great book.
User avatar
Madman Munt
amir vahedi
amir vahedi
 
Posts: 557
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:46 am

Re: Little tech questions from your day

Postby Dr Tony Balls on Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:28 pm

If the OP wants a copy of the first edition of Stew Mac's "Fret Work Step-by-Step", its yours for the price of shipping.
I build effects and amps and do custom builds to order. Boom.
Site: http://ballseffects.com/
User avatar
Dr Tony Balls
not wearing any pants
not wearing any pants
 
Posts: 1323
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:14 pm
Location: Brooklyn, NYC

Re: Little tech questions from your day

Postby yard barf on Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:48 pm

Dr Tony Balls wrote:If the OP wants a copy of the first edition of Stew Mac's "Fret Work Step-by-Step", its yours for the price of shipping.


Barging in here to say I'd love to take that book off your hands, Doctor.
User avatar
yard barf
took picture of naked guy
took picture of naked guy
 
Posts: 1165
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:46 pm
Location: beside the point

Re: Little tech questions from your day

Postby Dr Tony Balls on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:05 am

HA. I figured someone here would want it, but figured i'd offer to the OP first. I'll give them a little bit to respond and if not its yours.
I build effects and amps and do custom builds to order. Boom.
Site: http://ballseffects.com/
User avatar
Dr Tony Balls
not wearing any pants
not wearing any pants
 
Posts: 1323
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:14 pm
Location: Brooklyn, NYC

Re: Little tech questions from your day

Postby yard barf on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:46 am

Dr Tony Balls wrote:HA. I figured someone here would want it, but figured i'd offer to the OP first. I'll give them a little bit to respond and if not its yours.


Thanks, dude. I can put it to use.
User avatar
yard barf
took picture of naked guy
took picture of naked guy
 
Posts: 1165
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:46 pm
Location: beside the point

Re: Little tech questions from your day

Postby Riff Magnum on Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:11 am

eliya wrote:The thing with setups is that when you start you're not sure what's a good setup. You know when a guitar plays nice, but you're not sure how to get there, and it can be hard to figure it out when starting out because every change you make to the guitar is incremental. For that, a book like Dan Erlewine's Guitar Player Repair Guide will be useful because he gives measurements for what he considers a good setup. So if you can get your guitar to those specs you know you're on the right track.


StewMac has a lot of little tutorial videos where they show how to do all kinds of different repairs. Those are good. They also sell instructional DVDs that are useful if you start out on your own.


Frank Ford is one of the best luthiers/repair persons in the world. He owns Gryphon Stringed Instruments in Palo Alto. His website is old school HTML site but full of gems of knowledge. Any sort of repair you might think of, he's performed it many times and put up an extensive post (with pictures) explaining how to do it. A lot of what I learned is from reading everything on frets.com.

He also runs this forum for luthiers. You should lurk there for a while before asking questions. It's not a messageboard for hobbyists but for professionals who make a living from building or repairing instruments. They don't take kindly to people asking "how do I make a nut from scratch?" so don't do that.

As far as tools:

Get good screwdrivers. Some big flatheads and phillips for adjusting truss rods. Also get small ones for adjustments at the bridge, tightening pickguard screws, tuner screws, etc. StewMac has a little kit that will cover the small screwdrivers for you.

Get some socket hex wrenches for Gibson style truss rods. I think Gibson is 5/16"? You can also get these from StewMac. I would get them at the local hardware store as you need them.

Get a set of metric and imperial (inches) allen (hex) wrenches. From the teeniest to the biggest. They'll will be useful for adjustments at the bridge (like saddle height on Fenders). Get all the sizes and both metric and imperial because guitars tend to have both types and all kinds of sizes. Also, they will always be useful around the house.

Get a good 6" ruler. Like one that doesn't have its edges at an angle. StewMac sells nice ones. You will use them to check the action at the 12th fret.

If you want to make adjustments at the nut, then get a set of nut files, and yeah StewMac sells them too. Also, Frank Ford has a pretty good guideline for checking action at the nut.

At the intermediate level you will do fret work, and that requires more tools. See how you like basic setups first before you jump to doing fretwork.

StewMac will have any tool you might need (and ones that no one should really need). They will also be more expensive if you bought that same tool at the hardware store. Their tools are nice, but most of my tools are from the hardware store. If you buy files for nuts, get them from StewMac as opposed to some random seller on eBay.

If you get into it, I can give you some pointers to getting good consistent setups. I'll save it for another post because this one's too long as it is.

Riff Magnum wrote:He's a bit of a curmudgeon


Yeah man, is the sky blue?



dude, you went above and beyond with that post. Ordered the Erleweine book and I got at least one guitar I don't mind taking apart and totally destroying if need be.
I'll report back with any specifics as they arise.
Might enroll in one of the shorter luthier classes nearby. One guy offers a once a week class where you basically build an acoustic from scratch. $40 a class, $400 for all the materials. Could be cool even though i'm really more into electrics.
User avatar
Riff Magnum
Saint Who Rules w/ Extensive Magnanimity
Saint Who Rules w/ Extensive Magnanimity
 
Posts: 2054
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:58 am
Location: Fort Worthless

Re: Little tech questions from your day

Postby Riff Magnum on Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:16 am

Dr Tony Balls wrote:HA. I figured someone here would want it, but figured i'd offer to the OP first. I'll give them a little bit to respond and if not its yours.


Thanks for the offer Dr., but yard barf can have it. I think the Erlewine book and my chris jury frankenstein guitar will be enough to keep me busy a while.
One more question: I live in an apartment so my kitchen table is gonna have to be my work area. Should i invest in something to set the guitar in or on? I see these mats and neck cradles that look pretty handy, but might not be necessary. I have a tendency to go off all half cocked on any new fancy that comes my way, trying to not be that guy for once and be prudent.
Thanks all!!
User avatar
Riff Magnum
Saint Who Rules w/ Extensive Magnanimity
Saint Who Rules w/ Extensive Magnanimity
 
Posts: 2054
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:58 am
Location: Fort Worthless

Re: Little tech questions from your day

Postby eliya on Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:43 am

You probably have some old, gross towels. Use one as your mat.

A neck rest, whether it's a post with a U shape to hold the neck a bit higher, or a roller neck rest, is useful but you can go without for now. I built my own rolling neck rest and made it real heavy so it doesn't move easily when I work on a guitar. You will really need one once you start working on frets, but for now you can get away without.

I think that learning to build an acoustic guitar will be more informative than building an electric. Almost everything you'll learn from building an acoustic guitar will be transferable to electrics, and the stuff that won't will be nice to know.

Some of the best pieces of advice I got about setting up guitars is this: Don't think about the truss rod as something you adjust to change the action. You want the neck to be as straight as possible under string tension (but don't necessarily adjust the truss rod under string tension). Check the action at the 12" fret - I usually aim for 1/16" between the top of the fret and bottom of the string. Check the action at the nut (look up Frank Ford's method). Now if the guitar buzzes between the 1st fret and the 12th fret, undo some of the tension from the truss rod. Keep undoing the tension on the truss rod until you find a good medium between buzzing and low action. A lot of the buzzing will be determined by the condition of the frets, but following this way of thinking will get you pretty far.
User avatar
eliya
Power Incarnate with Endless Creativity
Power Incarnate with Endless Creativity
 
Posts: 7632
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:37 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Little tech questions from your day

Postby Riff Magnum on Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:20 am

fuck yeah. Pretty pumped. Been playing for 25 years and I figured it's about time I know something practical about these things I love. Been watching online tutorials on amp construction and theory too. Good stuff to know.
With all the shit I see on Craigslist it seems plausible to buy, fix, and flip a lot of stuff for a decent profit. Might not be a "job" but definitely get me some experience and not lose my ass in the process.
User avatar
Riff Magnum
Saint Who Rules w/ Extensive Magnanimity
Saint Who Rules w/ Extensive Magnanimity
 
Posts: 2054
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:58 am
Location: Fort Worthless

Re: Little tech questions from your day

Postby llllllllllllllllllllllll on Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:45 pm

Image

I got one of these wraparound dudes on an old Epiphone Coronet. It used to have a Maestro Vibrola on it but it is long gone, and I don’t think the bridge is original, if only because it looks newer than the rest of the guitar.

The thing is that it doesn’t stay in tune for shit. The strings that are on it are way too light anyways. Before I start screwing around with replacement adjusted wraparound bridges I want to put heavier strings on it and leave it in standard tuning and see how it does. If I’m happy with it then I’m done. If I’m not happy I’ll start looking for replacement parts.

I am under the impression that these bridges work best with a wound G, which I am 100% cool with. But I f the intonation is fixed, shouldn’t there be a certain gauge for the rest of the strings that will work best for this bridge? If so, what is it or how can I find out? I am ok with a little trial an error but I don’t really want to fuck around too much with it. Looking around on the internet I am getting different answers.
llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
User avatar
llllllllllllllllllllllll
Man with Encyclopedic Knowledge
Man with Encyclopedic Knowledge
 
Posts: 5337
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:32 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Little tech questions from your day

Postby Dr Tony Balls on Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:11 pm

That bridge wont really make the guitar go out of tune, but it will fuck with your intonation as you note. Its made for a wound G, for sure. If you restring with a set with a wound G you'll be on the right track, then you can adjust intonation globally with the set screws behind either post.
I build effects and amps and do custom builds to order. Boom.
Site: http://ballseffects.com/
User avatar
Dr Tony Balls
not wearing any pants
not wearing any pants
 
Posts: 1323
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:14 pm
Location: Brooklyn, NYC

Re: Little tech questions from your day

Postby llllllllllllllllllllllll on Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:44 pm

I’ll put on a heavier set and see what happens. I guess I might need to look into replacement tuners. Just trying to sort out what parts might need to he replaced to solve the tuning issues before I take it in for a pro setup , if only to avoid for paying for two setups.
llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
User avatar
llllllllllllllllllllllll
Man with Encyclopedic Knowledge
Man with Encyclopedic Knowledge
 
Posts: 5337
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:32 pm
Location: Texas

PreviousNext

Return to Tech Room

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests