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Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby Bubber on Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:55 am

eliya wrote:
Bubber wrote:
morespaceecho wrote:mass air mass. there's not really any reason to make it more complicated than that.


air-sealing step—sealing cracks


These are the cracks between sheets of drywall? Between the floor and walls and walls and ceiling?

Hiya. The drywall layer would really be the toughest spot to do it, because every penetration (electrical boxes at every point) would need to be sealed at that layer. Rather, hit all those same gaps at the plywood layer which can be taped to be continuously sealed at the exterior set of double walls.
Of the six sides of the box that form the rock room:
For the two sides and roof trusses that incorporate exterior framing, I'd make that taped plywood to the interior of existing framing (and then only one more stud wall/set-of-rafters will be needed there, still with continuous layer of mass between, though). You could add mass to the exterior of that plywood layer, or you could try to make sure the sheathing layer of the building itself there is airtight to incorporate, but trying to get a crew on board with that is a real crap shoot. I'd call it a lost 4" and a couple hundred bucks and be done with it.
For the two sides where you're building new enclosure walls for your rock spot inside, I'd make that taped plywood to the *exterior* of your double-stud walls.
Floor works the same way except the exterior set you're taping to is actually the slab, and you can float your whole floor (still need joists obviously) & the non-load-bearing interior wall set on dense mineral wool.
It only sounds confusing, but it's all pretty straightforward and just needs attention to detail at those spots.
I guess if I were in this position I'd go ahead and have the garage built conventionally as big and tall as possible—significantly including getting the bottom chord of the roof trusses as high as possible—because they probably don't get to be inside the practice space—and be ready to go ahead and screw light plywood sheathing to the interior of that framing, to be primed-and-taped at the seams, for the part you're making into the rock party room.
And as in previous pages, it's true, as long as your framing and sheathing is tough enough, there are lots of ways to add mass, but again, drywall has really shifted in the past few years, in its mass-to-price ratio.
I'd stuff it with mineral wool and a face the inside with drywall. Double layer, green glue, sure, fine. This all wouldn't be too terrible to rip gently out of the garage. Cut power, remove screws and batts, throw drywall into dumpster, recycle plywood, studs, batts, electrical and door.

eliya wrote:
Bubber wrote:Worth dropping $30 on aggressive tape and doing it right before those most-tapeable surfaces get buried in insulation and walled in.

What is this tape you speak of?


There are a bunch but only one I can think of is readily available at the big box stores, and that's Grace Vycor flashing tape (also great at doors/windows). That stuff is rugged as hell. One good for primed plywood near the seams is 3M 8067, as in previous page. Amazonable. Or ZIP sheathing tape.

I wish I'd written this whole thing using the cool sunglasses guy emoji as bullet points, but whatever. Also just saw Greg's thing since writing this, and good job Greg.
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby bishopdante on Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:35 pm

Bubber wrote:The drywall layer would really be the toughest spot to do it, because every penetration (electrical boxes at every point) would need to be sealed at that layer. Rather, hit all those same gaps at the plywood layer which can be taped to be continuously sealed at the exterior set of double walls.


Would say just run non-recessed surface-mount boxes and steel tubing surface conduit...

Image

^ this is a british socket I know, but that sort of device makes life much easier.

Or to use the cheaper plastic flush-mount boxes, could perhaps just build a nice hardwood skirting /shelf-thing a few inches deep for running the various power cabling down...

You're not at all wrong about people punching holes in soundproof walls and whacking various surface-mount electrical boxes through drywall causing problems.
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision." - Bertrand Russell
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby Bubber on Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:46 pm

Those ideas all work, and sure, you can run conduit, face mount it, all of that—except, what that doesn't address is, if you're airsealing at the drywall layer, fully to the interior, you still run into airsealing trouble at the floor, in these spots:

8) drywall to bottom plate
8) bottom plate to floor
8) all seams in/at floor (because you don't have your wall sealed to a continuous floor (the slab) anymore, since you're all the way to the interior)

So I know where I'd do it.
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby Bubber on Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:57 pm

One can argue that these things aren't that consequential, sealing at the floor, since there'll be mass there, but since one can seal there with really no trouble simply by deciding to do it that way, when your stated goal is to handle sound pressure coming from an enclosed space, you're basically looking at Pascal's wager.

Eh? ehhhhh? Waka waka waka
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby bishopdante on Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:43 pm

I'm pro-sealing, as well as pro-mass and pro-damping-ratio.

Generally have found that the fewer holes involved in the design scheme, the better.

As for philosophical design schemes and pascal's waka waka wager, there is an in-depth survey of the voids and holes here: http://www.iep.utm.edu/pasc-wag/

Sometimes it pays to just knock it all down / rip it out, and build on level ground / solid foundations. "Fixing the church roof" is one of those phrases...

_______


I am still convinced that soundproof inner-room- modules that don't leak or cost /weigh the earth are possible. Am still slightly surprised that so few companies have steamed into the project-studio market.

There are doubtless reasons.

Namely that a good-sized booth is of a size and shape not dissimilar to a car, and therefore will cost more than a few hundred dollars, and that's just the shipping... but it is still surprising there are not many outside the factory/industrial market.

Would be great if a proper engineering company spent some time & effort on making it as slim, cheap and lightweight as possible. No offense to their efforts, but whisper rooms probably aren't designing their system in collaboration with ARUP.

Now... were a company to lease the units short & medium term, and do the installation, commissioning / decommissioning, that would probably suit a lot of projects & people, not just in music but also where people are running various bits of CNC machinery etc. Or even office partitioning so you can hear yourself think / crank your preferred noise.
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision." - Bertrand Russell
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby bishopdante on Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:50 pm

NB: on the subject of lead exposure, the primary cause has little to do with soundproof doors, or paint (unless one is eating it, or it is turning to dust), it seems the primary mass-exposure to lead is to do with airborne pollution from leaded fuel.

Previous to that, lead exposure was limited to workers in specific industrial sites and the local areas...

What is genuinely remarkable is how airborne lead seems to *exactly* correlate with crime rate!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27067615

Look at that graph!

Baaad hombres in every sense of the word.
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby bigsky on Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:34 pm

Hey all.

I’m currently designing a room within a room structure for my garage. Something I’m not sure about is the floor. The floor is concrete and (particularly as the ceiling won’t be that high) I don’t plan on fitting a raised floor, rather I plan on using some layers of material such as neoprene. I don’t really have that figured out yet. For the stud walls, when fixing them to the floor should I have some kind of barrier layer of neoprene between the wood and the concrete? Rather than just fixing wood directly to the floor.
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby scrotescape on Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:33 pm

Are the walls to bear the weight of the ceiling?
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby Adam P on Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:25 am

bigsky wrote:Hey all.

I’m currently designing a room within a room structure for my garage. Something I’m not sure about is the floor. The floor is concrete and (particularly as the ceiling won’t be that high) I don’t plan on fitting a raised floor, rather I plan on using some layers of material such as neoprene. I don’t really have that figured out yet. For the stud walls, when fixing them to the floor should I have some kind of barrier layer of neoprene between the wood and the concrete? Rather than just fixing wood directly to the floor.


I’m by no means an expert, but have you consider using resilient channel (or hat channel with RSIC clips) on your existing stud walls? That would allow you to keep your drywall 1/4” or so from the floor and seal with backer rod and caulk.
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby bishopdante on Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:01 pm

bigsky wrote:Hey all.

I’m currently designing a room within a room structure for my garage. Something I’m not sure about is the floor.


You can get various sorts of high density mineral wool which can be used as an isolating support between a concrete floor and a raised floor, like a sort of inch thick underlay.

Bitumen is also pretty good as an element in various sandwich panels for soundproof flooring.

There are many off-the-shelf acoustically isolating flooring panel systems available today for general purpose architectural use which employ various composite / sandwich constructions.

Neoprene in substantial thickness is *expensive*.
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby scrotescape on Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:48 pm

Bishopdante are you suggesting dense fiberglass panels can be used as underlayment for a floating wood floor? Like owens corning 703 or what?

I am building
Room within a room and transmission through the concrete slab will be the weakest link, and headroom is a factor so a minimal thickness/max isolation is desirable.
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby bigsky on Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:29 am

Hi, thanks for the replies.

The garage I’m building the room in is a brick wall, concrete floor structure. The walls are bare, so there’s no existing stud work to fix acoustic material to, hence my plan to build new stud walls which will bear the weight of the new ceiling.

I do have enough headroom to include a raised floor in the design, however if I can get away with using some kind of covering on the existing floor, that would help keep things simple and slightly cheaper.
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby scrotescape on Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:03 pm

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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby bishopdante on Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:39 am

scrotescape wrote:Bishopdante are you suggesting dense fiberglass panels can be used as underlayment for a floating wood floor? Like owens corning 703 or what?


The 140kgm³ Rockwool labelled RW6, ProRox SL 980, or HT700 is suitable for isolation of a flooring element. It requires a sturdy and rigid flooring panel to be placed on top of it, and suitable sealing/containing to prevent Rockwool dust escaping.
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby Pure L on Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:18 pm

"Is a Floating Floor Right For You? Answer: Probably NOT."
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8173
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby bishopdante on Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:35 pm

NB: there are many methods of "floating" an element, often using springs & dampers or elastomers. It can get big and complex.

Employing a high density mineral wool underlay supporting a rigid floor avoids quite a few of the basic problems of bare concrete, and has many fewer hit & miss and point-loading design issues associated with spring/damper systems, which in the industrial setting can be very intensive and expensive (eg: power stations).

Would certainly recommend installing the walls and ceiling and finding out if that's sufficient for the purposes, and if you like the sound of a bare concrete floor in the context (not a fan of exposed concrete myself), and if impact/vibration/mechanical transmission in or out is a problem.

There are also various sorts of rubber/foam acoustic underlays which can be placed between concrete and timber. Bitumen sheeting also works.

There are also some interesting self-levelling epoxy resins with rubber granules for industrial and media-room use. Haven't tried those myself, but they're likely worth investigating.
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Re: Building/Acquiring a "Noise-Tight" Room

Postby losthighway on Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:57 pm

My studio is a detached garage on a concrete slab. It's a room-within-a-room design. Right now the floors have no flooring other than a couple of rugs. There is good sound reduction between control room and live room, and excellent reduction from the live room to the outside (outside on the driveway when the street is silent you can hear bass notes/kick drum playing softly as if in the distance or on a neighbors stereo whose window is closed). My wife can't hear band practice from inside our house 20 feet away. The key factors in my success were doubling layers (double plywood outside with staggered seams, and double drywall inside with green glue), insulation, and sealing the room as well as possible.

We used wall mounted boxes for outlets so the only penetration is where the cable comes through the wall to give you juice, caulked the tiny gaps where the drywall meets the floor and use track lighting to minimize holes in the ceiling.

Double doors are also an important step. Also, everything costs too much money.

Yeah, in theory an isolated floor would be ideal, but I've found if you do other things correctly it's unnecessary.
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