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DEBATE: Evolution VS Intelligent Design

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Evolution Or Intelligent Design

God said to Abraham...
6
4%
It's evolution, baby!
117
83%
Two sides of the same coin
18
13%
 
Total votes : 141

Postby Gramsci on Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:48 am

Linus Van Pelt wrote:She even get's it sprayed on in real life.

Sheez.


Sprayed! Good lord!

Anyhoo, I like her curves, so fuck the abs. Maybe it's just that "in general" I like curvy Spanish girls...

...sprayed indeed.
Last edited by Gramsci on Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
clocker bob may 30, 2006 wrote:I think the possibility of interbreeding between an earthly species and an extraterrestrial species is as believable as any other explanation for the existence of George W. Bush.
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Postby Gramsci on Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:49 am

Linus Van Pelt wrote:
Gramsci wrote:If Mariah is a "munter" I'm a monkey's uncle.


Isn't the whole (original) point of this thread that you are a monkey's uncle? In a sense? Point Cranius.


Yup, that's why I said it.

Did you see that, did ya!
clocker bob may 30, 2006 wrote:I think the possibility of interbreeding between an earthly species and an extraterrestrial species is as believable as any other explanation for the existence of George W. Bush.
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Postby solum on Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:49 am

...
Last edited by solum on Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Gramsci on Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:52 am

solum wrote:
Gramsci wrote:
solum wrote:I think that this post addresses pretty much everything we've been discussing very well (up until Cranius' interesting point).


I don't understand how you can buy into this? The assumption with this argument is that there is a "intelligent designer". Without that the whole point falls to pieces.



No. No, no, no.

I don't see that assumption, at all, anywhere in galanter's post(s). You said that argument X didn't work. He refuted that (by using your best friend, who you've never met, Mr Reason). I don't think that imports an assumption on his/her part.

Now you're on my ignore list! How do you like that! Ha!


Assuming that there is a "intelligent designer" isn't reason, it's making shit up.

Lick my balls!
clocker bob may 30, 2006 wrote:I think the possibility of interbreeding between an earthly species and an extraterrestrial species is as believable as any other explanation for the existence of George W. Bush.
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Postby solum on Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:11 pm

...
Last edited by solum on Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Gramsci on Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:17 pm

solum wrote:... horrible stupid bastard.


Ok, aside from you acting like a childish retard, pray-tell explain why there is reason and logic in invoking flawed mythology?

If this is some kind of purely epistemological argument, fine, enter into the realm of the nonexistent and I'll see you on the other side.

Oh, and fix your post so it doen't make screen do that, it's fucking annoying for everyone.
clocker bob may 30, 2006 wrote:I think the possibility of interbreeding between an earthly species and an extraterrestrial species is as believable as any other explanation for the existence of George W. Bush.
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Postby solum on Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:21 pm

...
Last edited by solum on Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Gramsci on Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:24 pm

solum wrote:FUCK YOU!


That's great!

"Debate", that would be nice. You defend mythology as "rational", get in a huff when I don't agree and then try and insult me...

Good one!

Now answer my question!

PS.

I just looked back over your posts... and you haven't even entered into any form of debate, just a few one liners and then run off in a huff...

Double good one!
clocker bob may 30, 2006 wrote:I think the possibility of interbreeding between an earthly species and an extraterrestrial species is as believable as any other explanation for the existence of George W. Bush.
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Are you there, Mod? It's me, Linus.

Postby Linus Van Pelt on Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:54 pm

Mod!

Can you fix Solum's post?

Or something?

Thanks!
Why do you make it so scary to post here.
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Postby Andrew L. on Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:36 pm

Leaving <cough> on his 500th post, Solum will remain tmidgett forever.
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Postby Rimbaud III on Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:48 pm

Wow! That was exciting! Why don't we settle all this with a lovely arm-wrestle?
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Postby YO31 on Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:49 pm

Gramsci wrote:Dinosaurs.

Viruses.

Done here...


Forget the dinosaurs, even. You're done just with Viruses.
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Postby user_name on Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:10 pm

no vote
a redundant question anywhere else in the world
they say they just want both sides of the story to be told
it should be done, but many other sides of the story should be told as well, like native american cosmogeny, maori, hindu, australian, everything.....dilute the christian crapola
..........
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Postby Gramsci on Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:30 pm

user_name wrote:no vote
a redundant question anywhere else in the world
they say they just want both sides of the story to be told
it should be done, but many other sides of the story should be told as well, like native american cosmogeny, maori, hindu, australian, everything.....dilute the christian crapola


Exactly.

As I asked, and caused such a cafuffle about, why aren't Maori creation myths valid and Christian ones are?

It seems a little dishonest to me.

But none of the Christian/Apologist camp here will answer the question.
clocker bob may 30, 2006 wrote:I think the possibility of interbreeding between an earthly species and an extraterrestrial species is as believable as any other explanation for the existence of George W. Bush.
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Postby galanter on Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:37 pm

It seems to me that if someone is going to insist that Christianity is a
primitive belief system...despite the fact that the mere existence of the
writings of Thomas Aquinas alone provides compelling prima facie evidence to the contrary...then I am forced to ask...

what do you mean by the phrase "primitive belief system" ?

(And I'd suggest trying to avoid an answer that amounts to either
"non-scientific" or "contrary to my own beliefs")

Phil
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Postby galanter on Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:03 pm

> galanter:
>
> Your arguments are based on there being a designer. What empirical
> evidence do you have of this?

I personally don't believe there is a Uber Designer. But I can't prove it.
And neither can you.

What *can* be shown is that within the realm of science at this time there
is no compelling case for intelligent design.

But the bulk of my arguments have been trying to make two related
points.

First, that differing disciplines with differing methodologies result in world
views which are incommensurable. There is no meta-method, and there
can be no meta-method, that can with unqualified generality choose a
victor in conflicts between science and philosophy, or science and religion,
and so on.

Second, it is entirely possible and in fact common for reason to play an
important and supportive and even primary role in religious
considerations. Insulting religious people by insisting that they are
primitive and irrational is not only rude, it doesn't reflect well on the
speaker's education.

Where, in all of this, did I assume there is an Intellegent Designer out
there to make these points?
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Postby Gramsci on Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:10 pm

galanter wrote:It seems to me that if someone is going to insist that Christianity is a
primitive belief system...despite the fact that the mere existence of the
writings of Thomas Aquinas alone provides compelling prima facie evidence to the contrary...then I am forced to ask...

what do you mean by the phrase "primitive belief system" ?

(And I'd suggest trying to avoid an answer that amounts to either
"non-scientific" or "contrary to my own beliefs")

Phil


I'm sorry, but answer the question, don't reply with a question, it's demeaning to the both of us -well, mostly you, but I'm being a good sport-.

Why should Christianity be treated differently than any other religious belief system?

After you answer this question we can move on.

And after you've answered that you can tell me why if the Bible was wrong about every other cosmological account that is gives, why is it right about creation? Why do Christians accept certain scientific observations, that has as much or as little evidence as Evolution but are happy to ignore this? Could be because it's not mentioned in the Bible and therefore they have nothing to argue with. I'm sure if the Bible provided alternatives to Germ Theory Matty could have just as easily started Germ Theory vs God Doesn't Like You poll.

That you keep mentioning Thomas Aquinas is all very well and good, but Aquinas is a catholic theologian and wasn't really up on... well anything in the context of what we know today. The average Western 12 year old knows more about the physical universe than Aquinas ever did.

You might have noticed the Greeks also had some very clever thinkers, as did the Chinese, Indians... this is a very long list.

As for my meaning of primitive, pre-enlightenment theological and philosophical thought will do here. But primitive I do not imply "simple" thought. Aristotle was certainly not stupid, but he was wrong about what the universe is made up of.
Last edited by Gramsci on Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
clocker bob may 30, 2006 wrote:I think the possibility of interbreeding between an earthly species and an extraterrestrial species is as believable as any other explanation for the existence of George W. Bush.
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Postby Gramsci on Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:15 pm

galanter wrote: Insulting religious people by insisting that they are
primitive and irrational is not only rude, it doesn't reflect well on the
speaker's education.


You Americans are so quant with your "respect for people of faith" as if that in itself is a "good".

I have respect for what people "do" not what they claim to "be". Action is what counts in life, not some absract idea that some is due respect purely on their ability to suspend their disbelief on a higher level than your average Sci-Fi fan.

oh, and Solum if you're off in a hissy fit at least fix the stupid fucking mess you've made of the page!
clocker bob may 30, 2006 wrote:I think the possibility of interbreeding between an earthly species and an extraterrestrial species is as believable as any other explanation for the existence of George W. Bush.
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Postby galanter on Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:20 pm

>> Neither of you have answered the question why Christianity should be
>> treated any differently than any other primitive belief system?

> Two quick ones. First Christianity is not primitive. Second it is embraced by
> milliions of your fellow citizens, and we should treat each other well.

In case I haven't driven this deeply enough into the ground...

Somehow my relatively straight forward response has been misunderstood...

It seems to me that the poster is on record here as being fairly
disrespectful towards Christians. My point in pointing out that
millions of them live with us was not to argue "there are so many
of them that they can't be wrong". My point was that we all have to
live together, and not treating a huge segment of your fellow citizens
as stupid irrational primatives might be the better choice in terms of
manners and mutual co-existence.

The first point is even more direct. Christianity shouldn't be treated as an
irrational or primative belief system because it isn't irrational or primative.

i.e. Why not treat a cat like a dog? Because it isn't a dog.
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Postby galanter on Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:53 pm

I see from the almost instant responses that I'm somehow failing to
deliver the big picture. Let me try one more time.

The solution to the current "ID invades science" problem is education and understanding.

Politicians, the ID advocates, and even those more comfortable with
science, have to learn that science is a limited regime. It has a specific
set of ground rules and assumptions, and the findings of science are only
binding within those ground rules and assumptions.

It would take a longer discussion to prove, but I am convinced that the
very nature of science...the ground rules and assumptions...leave
science incapable of saying anything about God one way or the other.

And so it shouldn't be surprising, and more importantly it should be
no *threat*, if ID isn't taught in the science classroom. ID ultimately
posits something like God (each candidate designer must, by the same
arguments, have a higher designer, and at some point you get the prime
mover designer) and so it's no big deal if science doesn't embrace it.
ID, true or false, is beyond the grasp of science.

Similarly, if we can limit ourselves for now to Christianity, it too is a
limited regime in the sense that empiricism, the very thing that powers
science, is a second rate source of wisdom when compared with
something like divine revelation, the holy ghost, and so on.

To contend that science has somehow disproven or undermined (in a
rational not social sense) Christianity is to misunderstand both. That kind
of statement itself is outside the bounds of science.

The problem comes when one side claims that their regime trumps the
other. If there was a better public understanding of this, that it is
impossible for one discipline to somehow subsume the other, then maybe
maybe maybe the ID folks would stay out of the science classroom, and
the science folks would concede that *as scientists* they really can't say
anything at all about God.

And that's grounds for a truce.
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