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band: swans

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swans

crap
16
7%
not crap
194
81%
it all depends on whether jarboe is on the record
29
12%
 
Total votes : 239

Re: band: swans

Postby Zorg on Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:15 am

Clyde wrote:
harpseal2 wrote:Excuse me, fellow EA members, if I accidently sound like the most sexist piece of shit when asking this, because I surely do not mean to demean women or doubt the legitimacy of Larkin's story in any way...

But is it really rape if she said no and he stopped the second after, as she described in her story?

Once again I really don't mean to cause any offence by asking this.


Let's say you and a friend went out one night drinking and ended up crashing in the same bed together. What if you then woke up with your friend's dick in your ass or mouth? If you said stop and he stopped would you think he had acted reasonably or would you feel violated regardless because consent had never been given or even asked?


I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if this friend was my boss, looked like a creepy Twin Peaks Bob pedophile twice my age, had a scary band that had a song about raping slaves and had been trying to get into my pants since I met him, I might consider myself lucky he stops there. I think marsupial has a point that when you have a verbal contract with your "friend" that he not rape you, your priorities might need some adjusting. That said, I would love a world where people respect each other, but no, people will steal your shit, eat your food, and rape you.
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Re: band: swans

Postby harpseal2 on Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:34 am

Clyde wrote:Let's say you and a friend went out one night drinking and ended up crashing in the same bed together. What if you then woke up with your friend's dick in your ass or mouth? If you said stop and he stopped would you think he had acted reasonably or would you feel violated regardless because consent had never been given or even asked?


Fair enough, that's a very good point.

Zorg wrote:...had been trying to get into my pants since I met him...


Wait what?
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Re: band: swans

Postby Zorg on Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:51 am

harpseal2 wrote:
Zorg wrote:...had been trying to get into my pants since I met him...


Wait what?


I said no to you many times before that day, begged you not to interfere with me sexually, even made it a part of a verbal agreement we had when I signed a contract with you. I asked you to promise that you would never have sex with me.
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Re: band: swans

Postby J. Burns on Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:14 am

harpseal2 wrote:But is it really rape if she said no and he stopped the second after, as she described in her story?


If she's asleep/unconscious, then absolutely yes. It's HELLA rape, dogg.

If he asked her, "hey do you wanna fool around" and she said "yes," but changed her mind during the act, then no. Not rape. But most of us are 99.9% sure that's not what happened.
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Re: band: swans

Postby Nico Adie on Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:30 am

harpseal2 wrote:Excuse me, fellow EA members, if I accidently sound like the most sexist piece of shit when asking this, because I surely do not mean to demean women or doubt the legitimacy of Larkin's story in any way...

But is it really rape if she said no and he stopped the second after, as she described in her story?

Once again I really don't mean to cause any offence by asking this.


Yes, it is. In the same way that if you stabbed someone once and they said "that's sore, don't do it again" you'd still have stabbed them.
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Re: band: swans

Postby Otto Parts on Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:40 am

Zorg wrote:I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if this friend was my boss, looked like a creepy Twin Peaks Bob pedophile twice my age, had a scary band that had a song about raping slaves and had been trying to get into my pants since I met him, I might consider myself lucky he stops there. I think marsupial has a point that when you have a verbal contract with your "friend" that he not rape you, your priorities might need some adjusting. That said, I would love a world where people respect each other, but no, people will steal your shit, eat your food, and rape you.


I'm not trying to pick on FM Zorg here, as I get the point of the post, but it's probably worth stating that the Swans song "Raping a Slave" isn't really about raping slaves in the literal sense. Like much of the early Swans music, it's about dominance/submission, and shame/humiliation/degradation, and brutality both physical and emotional. The songs speak metaphorically, and the narrator is usually the subject of the abuse that is described. And needless to say, writing a song called "Raping a Slave" doesn't make you a rapist any more that writing a song called "Jordan, Minnesota" makes you a child molester. And neither does your physical appearance.
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Re: band: swans

Postby rayword45 on Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:49 am

In Zorg's defense (BUT NOT GIRA'S) and as others have stated you've got to be really, really deluded to feel like you need to make a verbal contract saying "don't rape me" and then expecting that to stick.

If you need that contract, LEAVE. I'm not victim blaming in the slightest, I'm saying one should act upon such a huge fucking red flag.
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Re: band: swans

Postby 154 on Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:11 am

Maybe because, like she stated, she was musically ambitious enough to deal with the creep vibes? Something she was already used to dealing with lesser-known schlubbs anyway?

Dudes probably suck up to Gira all the time, lucky for them they don't have to worry about being fucked in their sleep.
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Re: band: swans

Postby jimmy spako on Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:13 am

Women have to deal with creepy mentors and teachers and bosses all of the fucking time, but they may want to acheive something specific in spite of that, like releasing a record on a well-placed label, thinking that it will help them to continue to do what they love to do. Nothing weird about the decision to forge on regardless. Also, there is nothing weird about doing that and then making it abundantly clear to your somehow otherwise admirable but creepy mentor/teacher/boss/supporter that you absolutely do not want to have sex with them ever and you can only proceed with your business or creative partnership if they acknowledge and respect this wish. Of course you might not phrase it that way, but that seems to me to be a highly rational, up-front and clever way to approach this reality.

Also, commenting here on how you know some people who know some people or vaguely travel in circles with so-and-so is idiotic and only makes it look like you are actually using this tragic occasion to inform us all of your brush with greatness. You don't know anything about what these people are really like in the situation in question. If you are honest with yourselves, you don't really know how your best friends or colleagues act in private, in these situations or just in a banal sense in their intimate relationships. It's a black box. You hope that they are decent people behind closed doors but you mostly don't know until something happens. We've witnessed that very thing happen on this forum.
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Re: band: swans

Postby gjp on Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:38 am

jimmy spako wrote:Women have to deal with creepy mentors and teachers and bosses all of the fucking time, but they may want to acheive something specific in spite of that, like releasing a record on a well-placed label, thinking that it will help them to continue to do what they love to do. Nothing weird about the decision to forge on regardless. Also, there is nothing weird about doing that and then making it abundantly clear to your somehow otherwise admirable but creepy mentor/teacher/boss/supporter that you absolutely do not want to have sex with them ever and you can only proceed with your business or creative partnership if they acknowledge and respect this wish. Of course you might not phrase it that way, but that seems to me to be a highly rational, up-front and clever way to approach this reality.

Also, commenting here on how you know some people who know some people or vaguely travel in circles with so-and-so is idiotic and only makes it look like you are actually using this tragic occasion to inform us all of your brush with greatness. You don't know anything about what these people are really like in the situation in question. If you are honest with yourselves, you don't really know how your best friends or colleagues act in private, in these situations or just in a banal sense in their intimate relationships. It's a black box. You hope that they are decent people behind closed doors but you mostly don't know until something happens. We've witnessed that very thing happen on this forum.

THIS.
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Re: band: swans

Postby OrthodoxEaster on Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:23 pm

jimmy spako wrote:Also, commenting here on how you know some people who know some people or vaguely travel in circles with so-and-so is idiotic and only makes it look like you are actually using this tragic occasion to inform us all of your brush with greatness.


If this is some reference to me, you couldn't be more wrong. Fact of the matter is, I'm not really willing to air on a public forum what I know, specifically, about the backstory. I'm just saying hold on a minute, you definitely don't have the whole story here. Apologies if that's vague. But if there's even a one percent chance that Larkin is being truthful, it would be damning, piggish, and unfair to her to air this information. Possibly even misleading. And so I won't. I don't want that on my conscience and also, it's not really anyone's business here. But it exists. And it does puts her allegations in a completely different light. Ok, it doesn't make them impossible by any means; it's still conjecture. But it's a hell of a lot less like conjecture than what I've been reading here. Again, only two people know what really went down. Yet many of you seem to be taking her statements at face value b/c of statistics or Gira's body of work or his physical appearance, and that seems foolish. Even Larkin herself admits:

Larkin Grimm, in Billboard wrote:Yesterday was the worst day of my life. My phone was ringing constantly starting at 6am with calls from people concerned and anxious and worried about me. Many people close to me doubted my truth.


I'm just saying--w/o knowing for sure, obviously--that yes, there are some compelling reasons for doubt, particularly if you know these people and/or their social circle.

I should also mention that the background of the story was told to me by neither Michael nor anyone close to him, and it was long before any of this was made public. Nobody had any kind of agenda at the time. Again, sorry if that's vague.

As for Michael, I've known him socially, albeit not super-well or anything, for something like 20 years. So what. This is not a big deal. But if similar allegations were made against Steve or somebody, I'm sure people who are friendly w/him might choose to chime in on this forum if it were relevant.

It's fine to have your suspicions, but it seems a little hasty to pass judgment one way or the other at this point.

[edited for grammar]
Last edited by OrthodoxEaster on Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: band: swans

Postby 154 on Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:35 pm

OrthodoxEaster wrote:Even Larkin herself admits:

Larkin Grimm, in Billboard wrote:Yesterday was the worst day of my life. My phone was ringing constantly starting at 6am with calls from people concerned and anxious and worried about me. Many people close to me doubted my truth.


I'm just saying--w/o knowing for sure, obviously--that yes, there are some compelling reasons for doubt, particularly if you know these people and/or their social circle.


How is that an admission of anything? That's what every woman goes through after making allegations like these.
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Re: band: swans

Postby jimmy spako on Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:41 pm

In my mind, that is the worst, sorry. "If you knew what I know..."

Just shut up about it if it is third-hand hearsay from your social circles, what are you hoping to acheive with it?
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Re: band: swans

Postby OrthodoxEaster on Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:48 pm

154 wrote:
OrthodoxEaster wrote:Even Larkin herself admits:

Larkin Grimm, in Billboard wrote:Yesterday was the worst day of my life. My phone was ringing constantly starting at 6am with calls from people concerned and anxious and worried about me. Many people close to me doubted my truth.


I'm just saying--w/o knowing for sure, obviously--that yes, there are some compelling reasons for doubt, particularly if you know these people and/or their social circle.


How is that an admission of anything? That's what every woman goes through after making allegations like these.


The fact that it's people close to her seems telling. It absolutely doesn't prove anything at all; it's part of a larger picture that may or may not be revealed (and may or may not even be accurate). I guess "concedes" would have been a more precise word than "admits" here. Again, sorry if that's vague. You couple that w/this supposed verbal contract, the whole I'm-gonna-make-you-a-star bit (which, really, does not sound at all like Michael unless he were joking), and a bunch of other stuff I choose not to air here and well, there is reason for doubt. Although again, I would not be comfortable saying this did not happen, either. I could be completely wrong. But still, trial-by-internet leaves a terrible taste in my mouth.
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Re: band: swans

Postby OrthodoxEaster on Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:51 pm

jimmy spako wrote:Just shut up about it if it is third-hand hearsay from your social circles, what are you hoping to acheive with it?


It's a bit closer than that.

Just saying that people seem to be jumping the gun. That's all.
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Re: band: swans

Postby El Protoolio on Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:07 pm

OrthodoxEaster wrote:
jimmy spako wrote:Just shut up about it if it is third-hand hearsay from your social circles, what are you hoping to acheive with it?


It's a bit closer than that.

Just saying that people seem to be jumping the gun. That's all.


I'll believe any woman unconditionally who claims she was raped. I'll take her word she was raped because she said she was raped. It's stupid to suggest that any woman would make that shit up considering all the nasty pushback she will get. No one is jumping the gun and you're defending a rapist. You're fucked in the head. Go away.
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Re: band: swans

Postby 154 on Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:13 pm

OrthodoxEaster wrote:
154 wrote:
OrthodoxEaster wrote:Even Larkin herself admits:

Larkin Grimm, in Billboard wrote:Yesterday was the worst day of my life. My phone was ringing constantly starting at 6am with calls from people concerned and anxious and worried about me. Many people close to me doubted my truth.


I'm just saying--w/o knowing for sure, obviously--that yes, there are some compelling reasons for doubt, particularly if you know these people and/or their social circle.


How is that an admission of anything? That's what every woman goes through after making allegations like these.


The fact that it's people close to her seems telling.


Right, because this stuff is extremely uncomfortable and it's often easier for people to question the accuser's sanity.

I'm still waiting to see how this plays out too. Not that the Gira's ever had to address any of this publicly (with all their supposed counter-evidence), but what little they did was either contradictory, clumsy, or irrelevant (current wife's history of abuse). We shall see.
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Re: band: swans

Postby OrthodoxEaster on Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:20 pm

El Protoolio wrote:I'll believe any woman unconditionally who claims she was raped. I'll take her word she was raped because she said she was raped. No one is jumping the gun and you're defending a rapist. You're fucked in the head. Go away


And you're entitled to live in such a black and white world.

154 wrote:Right, because this stuff is extremely uncomfortable and it's often easier for people to question the accuser's sanity.


Sure. I don't disagree.

154 wrote:I'm still waiting to see how this plays out too. Not that the Gira's ever had to address any of this publicly (with all their supposed counter-evidence), but what little they did was either contradictory, clumsy, or irrelevant (current wife's history of abuse). We shall see.


I pretty much agree w/you on this, too. And Gira's statement was clumsy as hell, slightly puzzling, and possibly under the advisement of an attorney. We shall indeed see. (Although honestly, we might not.)

[misquote edited at the request of El Protoolio]
Last edited by OrthodoxEaster on Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: band: swans

Postby El Protoolio on Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:28 pm

Don't misquote me asshole I never said what's in your third quote. I said the opposite. You're fucking gross
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Re: band: swans

Postby OrthodoxEaster on Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:39 pm

El Protoolio wrote:Don't misquote me asshole I never said what's in your third quote. I said the opposite. You're fucking gross


Sorry; hasty typing. And fixed.
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