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band: swans

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swans

crap
15
6%
not crap
192
81%
it all depends on whether jarboe is on the record
29
12%
 
Total votes : 236

Re: band: swans

Postby mr.arrison on Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:32 pm

Why would anyone be offended by this discussion? Are you offended because Gira's your sacred cow?

Let's look at the facts: Well, he did finally admit he made this mistake (which was inarguably an act of rape) after slandering the person who accused him of the act. And somehow his current wife got involved in the defensive vitriol along the way?

True, I wasn't there, but it doesn't elevate my opinion of him in the least. In fact, in some ways he's become the cartoonish version of the brutal, patriarchal abusers of power (rapists, cowards, hypocrites) he sings about. It's all very sad and vile for someone who I had great respect for.
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Re: band: swans

Postby Zorg on Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:37 pm

I hope we can at least appreciate that both Michael Gira and Thurston Moore have now been the focus of a juicy tabloid sex scandal.
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Re: band: swans

Postby rayword45 on Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:43 pm

Okay, stop, comparing Gira to Thurston Moore is like comparing Jeffrey Dahmer to Ross Ulbricht (if you think what Ross did was wrong anyways)
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Re: band: swans

Postby whoisalhedges on Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:46 pm

rayword45 wrote:Okay, stop, comparing Gira to Thurston Moore is like comparing Jeffrey Dahmer to Ross Ulbricht (if you think what Ross did was wrong anyways)

I fail to see how a rape accusation is a "sex scandal," anyway. It's an allegation of a brutal and violent crime, not something to tut-tut about over cocktails.
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Re: band: swans

Postby Zorg on Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:07 pm

rayword45 wrote:Okay, stop, comparing Gira to Thurston Moore is like comparing Jeffrey Dahmer to Ross Ulbricht (if you think what Ross did was wrong anyways)

I'm not intending to compare the situations, only their representation in the media.
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Re: band: swans

Postby nonstoptaco on Fri Mar 04, 2016 2:34 am

Clearly Larkin Grimm is not well. Mental illness does not equate with dishonesty. However, in Grimm’s case, both are active to the detriment of my colleague and former life partner, Thomas Ellis’s reputation and career. I have worked with Thomas for years now, and though our personal relationship did not work, I know him well and deeply and Grimm’s public depictions of him are errant and libelius. I continue to work with Thomas professionally and I stand with him in this matter. Larkin Grimm has admitted in writing that, when off her medication, she lacks compassion and enjoys playing tricks on people. During her short tenure with Heroes Are Gang Leaders, she wove a tapestry of lies about her past marriage, false suicide attempts, and a number of other stories that she carefully tailored to the particular listener in order to garner their sympathy and rely on their decency to keep her confidences private. As her statements became bolder and more difficult to fathom, members of HAGL began discussing them and quickly discovered that Larkin Grimm is a very calculating liar. When she feared her place in the band was in jeopardy, she fabricated sexual harassment allegations against the main three band members who saw through her lies and wanted her out. Later she addressed the entire group, promising no more lies and that she was trying to be a better person--that she felt that the person she was when she was playing was the better person that she strived to be in life. Unfortunately, Grimm has not been successful in that aim. She went on to publically conflate an unfortunate incident within my then broken relationship with Thomas Ellis--an incident she uses lies to describe--with a rape allegation she made against producer Michael Gira from 2008, two completely unrelated stories beyond Grimm’s opportunistic linking in order to publicise her new album.
-Margaret Morris of Heroes Are Gang Leaders


Take that for what it is.

I don't know.

"Mental illness does not equate with dishonesty" is the important thing there. I don't think her claims have been at all discredited per se, but there's another side of this story, in this Facebook People's Court.
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Re: band: swans

Postby thelastrewind on Fri Mar 04, 2016 2:42 am

Gira's lawyer/attorney is an idiot.
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Re: band: swans

Postby nonstoptaco on Fri Mar 04, 2016 3:03 am

whoisalhedges wrote:I fail to see how a rape accusation is a "sex scandal," anyway. It's an allegation of a brutal and violent crime, not something to tut-tut about over cocktails.

I agree with everything you've posted, from your previous post to the cocktails thing, you're generally on point here, but I disagree that this was a "brutal and violent" crime in the physical sense. And I think that's an important thing.

The details here were presented, so I don't need to speculate. It wasn't a "brutal and violent" assault physically, it was something that I think should have a dialogue too--a woman, intoxicated, passed out, being violated. That's her story and that's rape. It's not Irreversible but still rape.

I'm uncomfortable thinking about the degrees of rape, one situation being worse than the other, that the less violent version is somehow more preferred. I guess you could beat the shit out of me and stab me and kill me or you could poison me without me knowing, either way I'm dead and I don't want to be dead.

Anyway, just a tangent on a couple words in your post.
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Re: band: swans

Postby harpseal2 on Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:23 am

There are so many people who are coming out in support of Gira but honestly, he outright admitted to it without calling it rape.

Larkin Grimm has admitted in writing that, when off her medication, she lacks compassion and enjoys playing tricks on people.


Once a-fucking-gain, please back this up. Where did she say this? Are you implying that she's mentally ill? Because that means that drunk or not, it's questionable whether she can consent anyway. Until an official judge says so, or M. Gira's wife shows the so-called "blackmail" from Larkin that she mentioned, there is no reason for someone to believe that he didn't do it.

I really want to believe M. Gira didn't do it, I don't want to feel dirty when I listen to Swans, but I'm gonna need hard evidence before I dismiss a rape claim.
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Re: band: swans

Postby Major on Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:44 am

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Re: band: swans

Postby andyman on Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:06 am

whoisalhedges wrote:Haven't really been following the story too closely, trying to catch up on the thread now (but it's pretty convoluted).

From what I have followed, the only thing that seems clear to me is that if there was sexual contact, it was non--consensual. i.e. rape. Gira's only defense seems to be if he didn't touch her.

Gira's statement claims whatever happened was consensual.


The Chinese whispers and cumulative speculation that Internet witch-hunts breed make me very sad.
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Re: band: swans

Postby OrthodoxEaster on Fri Mar 04, 2016 12:24 pm

andyman wrote:
whoisalhedges wrote:Haven't really been following the story too closely, trying to catch up on the thread now (but it's pretty convoluted).

From what I have followed, the only thing that seems clear to me is that if there was sexual contact, it was non--consensual. i.e. rape. Gira's only defense seems to be if he didn't touch her.

Gira's statement claims whatever happened was consensual.


Right. He's also said it was never consummated (i.e. no sex). It's fine to think that's bullshit, but I'm not sure why anyone here sees his statement as some kind of doubtless admission of guilt.

And advising that a client maintain a consistent argument of consent seems like the oldest legal defense tactic in the book, regardless of whether that client is innocent or guilty.

As for hard evidence--if, in fact, any exists--I have a feeling that this card is being held. And why wouldn't it be? In fact, you may never see it or hear it. If it's there, it's likely reserved for the possibility of Grimm taking Gira to court or for Gira initiating his own suit for defamation of character, which, yes, would be far from impossible were such "evidence" a real thing. Probably best saved for a jury and not wasted as a means to placate the online public. Again, if it exists.

It just amazes me how people can seem so sure. (Then again, it also amazes me that anyone might wonder if boning a person in their sleep is considered rape or not. I mean, obviously! Christ! How and where were you raised?) It's moments like these when I remember why I was such a painfully late adapter to the internet.
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Re: band: swans

Postby harpseal2 on Fri Mar 04, 2016 3:03 pm

OrthodoxEaster wrote:(Then again, it also amazes me that anyone might wonder if boning a person in their sleep is considered rape or not. I mean, obviously! Christ! How and where were you raised?)


It was a pretty stupid question on my behalf, I'll admit, but I only view things from a legal perspective so I wasn't sure. I guess a better question is "if both of them are drunk, can either of them actually consent?"

OrthodoxEaster wrote:Right. He's also said it was never consummated (i.e. no sex). It's fine to think that's bullshit, but I'm not sure why anyone here sees his statement as some kind of doubtless admission of guilt.


I think people are taking it as an admission to guilt because he admitted to being in that exact circumstance, and all he has to say for himself is "well, it wasn't consummated". I don't know.

Otherwise I agree with everything else you said.

andyman wrote:The Chinese whispers and cumulative speculation that Internet witch-hunts breed make me very sad.
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Re: band: swans

Postby seanurban on Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:06 pm

harpseal2 wrote:a better question is "if both of them are drunk, can either of them actually consent?"

Sure. we have not criminalized drunk sex yet.
Maybe in some jurisdictions. Not sure. Anyway, this is Facebook court. What am I talking About?
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Re: band: swans

Postby Neuloveyou on Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:41 pm

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Re: band: swans

Postby harpseal2 on Fri Mar 04, 2016 7:15 pm

seanurban wrote:
harpseal2 wrote:a better question is "if both of them are drunk, can either of them actually consent?"

Sure. we have not criminalized drunk sex yet.
Maybe in some jurisdictions. Not sure. Anyway, this is Facebook court. What am I talking About?


Actually, it really is a shit question. I'm grasping at straws to not feel bad about listening to Swans, please ignore that question.
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Re: band: swans

Postby seanurban on Fri Mar 04, 2016 7:37 pm

You're not the first person to ask it. There's no satisfying answer though. It just raises more questions as we get further off topic.
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Re: band: swans

Postby AnthonyVillalobos on Sat Mar 05, 2016 12:13 pm

Pumped for the new album.
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Re: band: swans

Postby rayword45 on Sat Mar 05, 2016 12:30 pm

I wonder if any critical backlash will occur.
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Re: band: swans

Postby Major on Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:06 pm

4.5 on Pitchfork
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