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Collective: Odd Future

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Odd Future Wolf Gang Kill Them All

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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby i am the smud on Mon May 16, 2011 6:01 pm

You do realize the founder of this very website was in a band called "Rapeman", right?

The way you put it, it's like artists shouldn't dare deal with controversial topics. What is it like to live in Ultra PC land, where everyone is nice and no one says a bad thing about anyone? Must be horribly boring.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby scntfc on Mon May 16, 2011 6:49 pm

IDNG wrote:Remember when the Ramones and Lydon examples were 35 years ago or so? Remember "Money for Nothing" almost 30 years ago with its "faggot" part that's now excised? Remember the Warner's and Tom and Jerry cartoons with the black stereotypes? Culture progresses. It's not static. And not yea or nay. We have a much deeper understanding now. If the LGBT community weren't treated like second class citizens maybe it would be different. And the Ramones and Lydon didn't put it on every album and all over their websites etc. And the Ramones lyrics are a far cry from what OF spews.


for someone accusing others of excusing controversial lyrical content, there are an awful lot of excuses in that paragraph.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby tocharian on Mon May 16, 2011 6:50 pm

i am the smud wrote:You do realize the founder of this very website was in a band called "Rapeman", right?

That's exactly what this is. Tyler just doesn't know it yet. If someone ever succeeds in getting him to listen to Atomizer he'll instantly need new shorts.

Some reviewer made the very astute observation that OF is bursting with Grup influences they're still not even aware of. Because they're, like, teenagers from Central LA who make hip hop.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby IDNG on Mon May 16, 2011 7:21 pm

scntfc wrote:for someone accusing others of excusing controversial lyrical content, there are an awful lot of excuses in that paragraph.


Where did I excuse anything? I'm saying that using an example from 35 years ago doesn't hold up to the current state of affairs. And that comparing OF to the Ramones or Lydon is apples and oranges.

i am the smud wrote:The way you put it, it's like artists shouldn't dare deal with controversial topics. What is it like to live in Ultra PC land, where everyone is nice and no one says a bad thing about anyone? Must be horribly boring.


Where did I imply that artists shouldn't deal in the controversial? I don't think that OF is controversial at all. It's shock for shock's sake which I find to be boring and exactly the opposite of controversial. I see nothing "edgy" about them whatsoever. Dude can spew whatever he wants. I just don't find it interesting or well done. It's like if some 18 year old now decided to be shocking by wearing a swastika.

How is this...

Tyler wrote:"I'm not homophobic, I just think 'faggot' hits and hurts people."


Different than this...

roberto wrote:..."the band aren't racist .. but just cause they think 'Nigger ' hits and hurts people."


It's not shocking, just dumb.

Don't take the argument so personally.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby sulfur)addict on Mon May 16, 2011 9:17 pm

IDNG wrote:
scntfc wrote:for someone accusing others of excusing controversial lyrical content, there are an awful lot of excuses in that paragraph.


Where did I excuse anything? I'm saying that using an example from 35 years ago doesn't hold up to the current state of affairs. And that comparing OF to the Ramones or Lydon is apples and oranges.


Are you seriously saying that gay rights have regressed since 1975?


You're looking at the wrong group of people, man. This isn't your politically charged Public Enemy or your misogynist/homophobic N.W.A. it's a group of fucking teenagers who have made a point to piss on everything. They aren't writing socio-political songs. They barely write serious songs, aside from they unfuckwithable ones about domestic problems. Do you take the call of "kill people, burn shit, fuck school" seriously? So why would you take lyrics like "I hate gays, gangbangers, and fucking jerkers/Unless it's gay gangbangers that's fucking jerkers" any more seriously? That is clearly a joke.

Goddamnit, the only serious statement Tyler has even made is "Just do what makes you happy" in "Radical." That's it. No asterick for "except fuck the same gender." Nothing. This isn't the generation that has voted to stop gay marriage. Stop labeling them like they have anything to do with LGBT oppression. They don't. No more than they do for the number of arsons or rapes that happen every day. They are not "spewing" hateful lyrics. Homophobia is not all over their website and albums. And jumping to that conclusion makes me doubt how much you know about the collective.

I really, really don't think you get it. I don't think you personally care, either. But you damn sure don't get it.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby deep.BTUz on Mon May 16, 2011 9:31 pm

sulfur)addict wrote:
IDNG wrote:
scntfc wrote:for someone accusing others of excusing controversial lyrical content, there are an awful lot of excuses in that paragraph.


Where did I excuse anything? I'm saying that using an example from 35 years ago doesn't hold up to the current state of affairs. And that comparing OF to the Ramones or Lydon is apples and oranges.


Are you seriously saying that gay rights have regressed since 1975?


You're looking at the wrong group of people, man. This isn't your politically charged Public Enemy or your misogynist/homophobic N.W.A. it's a group of fucking teenagers who have made a point to piss on everything. They aren't writing socio-political songs. They barely write serious songs, aside from they unfuckwithable ones about domestic problems. Do you take the call of "kill people, burn shit, fuck school" seriously? So why would you take lyrics like "I hate gays, gangbangers, and fucking jerkers/Unless it's gay gangbangers that's fucking jerkers" any more seriously? That is clearly a joke.

Goddamnit, the only serious statement Tyler has even made is "Just do what makes you happy" in "Radical." That's it. No asterick for "except fuck the same gender." Nothing. This isn't the generation that has voted to stop gay marriage. Stop labeling them like they have anything to do with LGBT oppression. They don't. No more than they do for the number of arsons or rapes that happen every day. They are not "spewing" hateful lyrics. Homophobia is not all over their website and albums. And jumping to that conclusion makes me doubt how much you know about the collective.

I really, really don't think you get it. I don't think you personally care, either. But you damn sure don't get it.



I think you are trying to see what you want to see in something you are a fan of. For the most part I'd agree that 95% of it is an adolescent acting juvenile. And while I don't think the guy is necessarily a hate monger, I do think that it is important to understand that the language you use has political ramifications beyond how you imagine it was intended.

And to be real that's dudes response to T&S on Twitter was plain unacceptable. It was straight up creepy bullshit w/ violent undertones. Anyone who thinks that's cool, or just a kid being funny, needs to think a little harder.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby Antero on Mon May 16, 2011 10:00 pm

i am the smud wrote:
deep.BTUz wrote:Eminem didn't express any sentiments about homosexuals that weren't said on eight million rap records released before and since he was called to task.


Performing with a famous artist on an awards show watched by million is hardly what I would call being "called to task". Eminem records still move big units (Recovery sold big time, 5.7 million copies worldwide AND it is also the biggest selling digital album of all time).

Seriously. If that's getting called to task for the love of fucking god someone call me.

My point is, the only thing that Eminem can't get away with that Tyler can is saying "nigger". To say that Tyler's race protects him from being criticized for saying "homophobic" remarks is ignorant.

It's also really awkward in a "how come it's okay when they say 'nigger'?" way.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby IDNG on Mon May 16, 2011 10:03 pm

sulfur)addict wrote:Are you seriously saying that gay rights have regressed since 1975?


No. I'm saying the opposite. It would be more expected in 1975 than now.


sulfur)addict wrote:Everything else...


What it comes down to is that we see fundamentally different things in the group. I've given them quite a chance actually. Listened to a bunch of tyler's stuff. The Earl Sweatshirt guy. A bunch of other randomly selected tracks. Read a ton of interviews, their twitter, website etc. I seriously thought I was missing something over the last couple months because some of my friends really seem to love them. But alas, I really don't like them and I don't agree with what most people here seem to think of them at the base level.

deep.BTUz wrote:I think you are trying to see what you want to see in something you are a fan of. For the most part I'd agree that 95% of it is an adolescent acting juvenile. And while I don't think the guy is necessarily a hate monger, I do think that it is important to understand that the language you use has political ramifications beyond how you imagine it was intended.

And to be real that's dudes response to T&S on Twitter was plain unacceptable. It was straight up creepy bullshit w/ violent undertones. Anyone who thinks that's cool, or just a kid being funny, needs to think a little harder.


Yep. That right there.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby Antero on Mon May 16, 2011 10:14 pm

deep.BTUz wrote:And to be real that's dudes response to T&S on Twitter was plain unacceptable. It was straight up creepy bullshit w/ violent undertones. Anyone who thinks that's cool, or just a kid being funny, needs to think a little harder.

Nah. That shit was perfect. It was demanded. Someone's getting reflexive and self-righteous and has the nerve to bring race into it? Perfect Newtonian action/reaction.

Tyler is a 10th-dan troll.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby deep.BTUz on Mon May 16, 2011 10:32 pm

Antero wrote:
deep.BTUz wrote:And to be real that's dudes response to T&S on Twitter was plain unacceptable. It was straight up creepy bullshit w/ violent undertones. Anyone who thinks that's cool, or just a kid being funny, needs to think a little harder.

Nah. That shit was perfect. It was demanded. Someone's getting reflexive and self-righteous and has the nerve to bring race into it? Perfect Newtonian action/reaction.

Tyler is a 10th-dan troll.


I think you are being unbelievably naive to think that race isn't playing a part in this. I doubt anyone defending him here would even try and defend say Bill O'Reilly if he used the word 'fag'. Would it be funny if Ted Nugent wrote up some lyrics like this? I don't think so, and pretending it's not that way is sort of racist. The latent homophobia in cultures like hip hop and dance hall, even the black church really, has gone unchecked for far too long, mostly due to liberal guilt. To set up this double standard is incredibly regressive. And yes, an aggressive sexual comment by a male to an an out and public lesbian is utterly creepy, and has elements of violence in it. Defending that kind of behavior is dangerous.

It's funny, but I was reading this today against the backdrop of Rick Welts coming out. Sports is another culture in America where homophobia and the language of homophobia has been excused or overlooked for far too. And for the most part it did seem like a major step forward. Seriously a few weeks ago Kobe Bryant got fined 100k for calling a referee a 'faggot'. I don't think there is an outrage or even a fine ten years ago. Maybe not even five years ago.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby scntfc on Mon May 16, 2011 10:37 pm

IDNG wrote:Where did I excuse anything?

i'll bite. i'm not even trying to say your wrong, i'm just pointing out that the acuteness of your argument isn't doing you any favors. to wit:
IDNG wrote:Remember when the Ramones and Lydon examples were 35 years ago or so?

it doesn't count because it was a long time ago? apparently they are excused because time has passed? culture is cyclical and there's a good chance that the culture that OF comes from have no clue who the ramones or the sex pistols were. why are you expecting a bunch of cali teenagers to be drawing from the same cultural pool as you?

IDNG wrote:And the Ramones and Lydon didn't put it on every album and all over their websites etc.

lack of quantity makes it less bad? well, maybe. but then again, maybe abundant use is actually proof that the words aren't as potent to the speaker as you make them out to be? (also, they had websites in 1977? wow!)

IDNG wrote:And the Ramones lyrics are a far cry from what OF spews.

from who's perspective? there is fair amount of nazi imagery in early punk, and i'm sure there are plenty of people of jewish descent who found - and still find - it offensive.

IDNG wrote:I don't think that OF is controversial at all.

and yet here you are, embroiled in controversy.


i think this is the most dead on comment in the entire thread:
tocharian wrote:This band scares the shit out of me in an "And the Children Shall Lead" kind of way. Clearly they don't need us... like, at all. Compare "Yonkers", video and song, to the junk you were cranking out at Kinkos 20 years ago and you have to admit it's pretty staggering what smart kids who grew up tinkering with Photoshop and sound editing software are capable of by age 19.


the bold part. to me, that's the scariest thing about them.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby Antero on Mon May 16, 2011 10:49 pm

deep.BTUz wrote:I think you are being unbelievably naive to think that race isn't playing a part in this.

I think you're indulging white privilege when you say it is.

I doubt anyone defending him here would even try and defend say Bill O'Reilly if he used the word 'fag'.

Pure idiocy, lack of imagination. Nobody would defend Jesse Jackson if he used the word "fag." In fact, I fucking guarantee you that more people out in the world would defend Bill O'Reilly than Jesse Jackson.

Would it be funny if Ted Nugent wrote up some lyrics like this?

Part of the thing you're missing is that Ted Nugent couldn't.

I don't think so, and pretending it's not that way is sort of racist.

This is really in the running for the dumbest things you've said in the last hour or so.

The latent homophobia in cultures like hip hop and dance hall, even the black church really, has gone unchecked for far too long, mostly due to liberal guilt.

Didn't Buju Banton or something like that get denied a visa a minute ago?

Didn't certain folks on the left immediately blame blacks and latinos for the victory of Prop 8 before they even bothered finding the stats?

Do you think OF has much to do with hip-hop culture as it exists in the late 00s? If you do, you need to listen to more rap.

And yes, an aggressive sexual comment by a male to an an out and public lesbian is utterly creepy, and has elements of violence in it.

Why does it matter that she's lesbian? Is it more violent if she is? That doesn't make any sense. Does Tyler know she's lesbian? Do I? I didn't, on that last part. Was the comment to her? No, not by any normal understanding.

Why are you engaged in this project of faux-patronizing pseudo-intellectual concern? Hell, why is everybody? Where were they when Chris Brown started climbing the charts again?

Y'all are getting straight trolled and it's making you look dumb as hell.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby deep.BTUz on Mon May 16, 2011 11:07 pm

Antero wrote:I think you're indulging white privilege when you say it is.


Oh, of course. Please. I think you are acting counter-progressively when you say something like that.

Pure idiocy, lack of imagination. Nobody would defend Jesse Jackson if he used the word "fag." In fact, I fucking guarantee you that more people out in the world would defend Bill O'Reilly than Jesse Jackson.


Oh, but the repercussions would be much lighter. And it's a comment on both race and creating degrees of hate, which is bullshit. Kobe Bryant got fined 100k for calling a referee a 'faggot'. Really nothing to a guy like him. Hypothetically, Dirk Nitwitzki calls a referee a 'nigger' and his career is over. I don't think that you are seeing the full picture. You say me (we the public) are getting trolled. I mean seriously fuck that. Language, like aesthetics, are political. There is a life to language beyond it's literal meaning. Tell it to some gay kid in high school who getting his ass kicked. You know that it was funny when Tyler the Creator goaded the public out of some money. Or you know that he should stop complaining about the beatings because he is exercising white privilege.


[/quote]This is really in the running for the dumbest things you've said in the last hour or so. [/quote]

Well we'll have to disagree. I think when you lower the standards for one culture, when it is not held up to the same standards as the rest of society, you are only really serving to marginalize it.


And yes, an aggressive sexual comment by a male to an an out and public lesbian is utterly creepy, and has elements of violence in it.

Why does it matter that she's lesbian? Is it more violent if she is? That doesn't make any sense. Does Tyler know she's lesbian? Do I? I didn't, on that last part. Was the comment to her? No, not by any normal understanding. [/quote]

Have you gone loony? The actual post on twitter was "If Tegan And Sara Need Some Hard Dick, Hit Me Up!" I'm going to go out on a limb and say it was directed at them.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby shloonk on Mon May 16, 2011 11:13 pm

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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby i am the smud on Tue May 17, 2011 1:02 am

deep.BTUz wrote: Kobe Bryant got fined 100k for calling a referee a 'faggot'. Really nothing to a guy like him. Hypothetically, Dirk Nitwitzki calls a referee a 'nigger' and his career is over.


It doesn't matter what your take on it is, "faggot" is simply not as loaded a term as "nigger" is in our culture. So I'm confused as to what your point is. If Dirk Nowitzki called a referee a "faggot", he would probably face the same repercussions as Kobe. This whole idea that it is more acceptable in our culture for one race to be "homophobic" over another is stupid.

I don't even think that, as it is used in our culture, "faggot" necessarily has to refer to gays. It really depends on the context. The word "cunt" for instance is commonly used in England. How often do you hear that word in America? And yet do we think of the English as an inherently misogynistic people? No, in context it usually refers to someone who is what we think of as a "douchebag".

"Nigger" however is a term that has no ambiguity to it. As defined in our culture, it has a very specific meaning.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby AnthonyCinder on Tue May 17, 2011 1:39 am

i am the smud wrote:It doesn't matter what your take on it is, "faggot" is simply not as loaded a term as "nigger" is in our culture.
I don't even think that, as it is used in our culture, "faggot" necessarily has to refer to gays.
"Nigger" however is a term that has no ambiguity to it. As defined in our culture, it has a very specific meaning.


But maybe this should change? Maybe we should progress to a point where people view the word "faggot" in the same way they view the word "nigger"?

Because I fucking do. I hate the word "faggot." I haven't said it other than in quotes since I was eight years old. I totally put it in the same column as "nigger," while recognizing that not everyone does. But maybe they should.

I agree that the term "nigger" has no ambiguity to it, or at least less so than the term "faggot."
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby Antero on Tue May 17, 2011 1:54 am

AnthonyCinder wrote:But maybe this should change? Maybe we should progress to a point where people view the word "faggot" in the same way they view the word "nigger"?

THIS is the discussion that anyone who wants to talk about this subject should be having. This is an actual topic of conversation.

On that subject, I think that "faggot" is going to decline in significance at roughly the same pace that homosexuality loses its stigma.

deep.BTUz wrote:Pure idiocy, lack of imagination. Nobody would defend Jesse Jackson if he used the word "fag." In fact, I fucking guarantee you that more people out in the world would defend Bill O'Reilly than Jesse Jackson.


Oh, but the repercussions would be much lighter.[/quote]
Bill O'Reilly says hideously hateful stuff all the fucking time. Genuinely hateful. What has come of that? You seem to live in an alternate universe.

Kobe Bryant got fined 100k for calling a referee a 'faggot'. Really nothing to a guy like him. Hypothetically, Dirk Nitwitzki calls a referee a 'nigger' and his career is over.
Given the relative placement of those words in society, no shit. See AnthonyCinder's question above.

Tell it to some gay kid in high school who getting his ass kicked.

See, this is why I think you exist in a tiny little world made up of your own imaginings. If you think a discussion of the ramifications of the use of the word "faggot" is just about the gay kid getting his ass kicked, I feel like you can't possibly have been on either end of the term.

Have you gone loony? The actual post on twitter was "If Tegan And Sara Need Some Hard Dick, Hit Me Up!" I'm going to go out on a limb and say it was directed at them.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby roberto on Tue May 17, 2011 10:36 am

IDNG wrote:How are the two any different? Which is what you are arguing.

I see no difference between racism and homophobia. None. Any attempt to justify either on any level is weak and betrays a level of ignorance or at least lack of thought or experience.

And I'm not trying to be a dick, I really would like to know what your rational is.

Like I said above. If the stuff doesn't bother you to hear then just enjoy the group. Just stop trying to justify the bigotry. It seems as if you are arguing the point so hard as to make yourself feel better about possibly being uncomfortable with them.



You missed the point, It was your boy Tyler the creator's quote.. I just changed "faggot" to "nigger"..

... My rational is never in a million years would some new rock band would be touted "edgy", "arty", whatever you want to call it by the press if they spouted out a million Niggers or kikes in their lyrics - no matter how good the music was or how fresh the sound..

They would be disowned and spat out in a second.. Mocked forever. FACT

Yet some how OFWGKTA and Tyler get a pass ...why? hmmmm ....

The homophobia is not even up for discussion in some parts of the media (especially the hip/underground) they're to busy hanging off these kids nuts.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby roberto on Tue May 17, 2011 10:36 am

i am the smud wrote:It doesn't matter what your take on it is, "faggot" is simply not as loaded a term as "nigger" is in our culture. So I'm confused as to what your point is. If Dirk Nowitzki called a referee a "faggot", he would probably face the same repercussions as Kobe. This whole idea that it is more acceptable in our culture for one race to be "homophobic" over another is stupid.

I don't even think that, as it is used in our culture, "faggot" necessarily has to refer to gays. It really depends on the context. The word "cunt" for instance is commonly used in England. How often do you hear that word in America? And yet do we think of the English as an inherently misogynistic people? No, in context it usually refers to someone who is what we think of as a "douchebag".

"Nigger" however is a term that has no ambiguity to it. As defined in our culture, it has a very specific meaning.


Bullshit... The way you excused "faggot" and "cunt" is exactly what millions of kids (and adults) use to excuse "Nigger"..

"were just joking around, we're not racist, we just call each other that"

If you gonna excuse some words , at least man up and excuse them ALL equally.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby Boombats on Tue May 17, 2011 11:59 am

What's shocking about all this is how much I agree with deep.BTUz, at least in theory. Specifically to this case, I don't think OF is homophobic, sexist or racist, because I don't know them personally. I just think they're uncreative. Saying "faggot nigger" is so so so played out.
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