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Collective: Odd Future

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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby deep.BTUz on Mon May 16, 2011 10:32 pm

Antero wrote:
deep.BTUz wrote:And to be real that's dudes response to T&S on Twitter was plain unacceptable. It was straight up creepy bullshit w/ violent undertones. Anyone who thinks that's cool, or just a kid being funny, needs to think a little harder.

Nah. That shit was perfect. It was demanded. Someone's getting reflexive and self-righteous and has the nerve to bring race into it? Perfect Newtonian action/reaction.

Tyler is a 10th-dan troll.


I think you are being unbelievably naive to think that race isn't playing a part in this. I doubt anyone defending him here would even try and defend say Bill O'Reilly if he used the word 'fag'. Would it be funny if Ted Nugent wrote up some lyrics like this? I don't think so, and pretending it's not that way is sort of racist. The latent homophobia in cultures like hip hop and dance hall, even the black church really, has gone unchecked for far too long, mostly due to liberal guilt. To set up this double standard is incredibly regressive. And yes, an aggressive sexual comment by a male to an an out and public lesbian is utterly creepy, and has elements of violence in it. Defending that kind of behavior is dangerous.

It's funny, but I was reading this today against the backdrop of Rick Welts coming out. Sports is another culture in America where homophobia and the language of homophobia has been excused or overlooked for far too. And for the most part it did seem like a major step forward. Seriously a few weeks ago Kobe Bryant got fined 100k for calling a referee a 'faggot'. I don't think there is an outrage or even a fine ten years ago. Maybe not even five years ago.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby scntfc on Mon May 16, 2011 10:37 pm

IDNG wrote:Where did I excuse anything?

i'll bite. i'm not even trying to say your wrong, i'm just pointing out that the acuteness of your argument isn't doing you any favors. to wit:
IDNG wrote:Remember when the Ramones and Lydon examples were 35 years ago or so?

it doesn't count because it was a long time ago? apparently they are excused because time has passed? culture is cyclical and there's a good chance that the culture that OF comes from have no clue who the ramones or the sex pistols were. why are you expecting a bunch of cali teenagers to be drawing from the same cultural pool as you?

IDNG wrote:And the Ramones and Lydon didn't put it on every album and all over their websites etc.

lack of quantity makes it less bad? well, maybe. but then again, maybe abundant use is actually proof that the words aren't as potent to the speaker as you make them out to be? (also, they had websites in 1977? wow!)

IDNG wrote:And the Ramones lyrics are a far cry from what OF spews.

from who's perspective? there is fair amount of nazi imagery in early punk, and i'm sure there are plenty of people of jewish descent who found - and still find - it offensive.

IDNG wrote:I don't think that OF is controversial at all.

and yet here you are, embroiled in controversy.


i think this is the most dead on comment in the entire thread:
tocharian wrote:This band scares the shit out of me in an "And the Children Shall Lead" kind of way. Clearly they don't need us... like, at all. Compare "Yonkers", video and song, to the junk you were cranking out at Kinkos 20 years ago and you have to admit it's pretty staggering what smart kids who grew up tinkering with Photoshop and sound editing software are capable of by age 19.


the bold part. to me, that's the scariest thing about them.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby Antero on Mon May 16, 2011 10:49 pm

deep.BTUz wrote:I think you are being unbelievably naive to think that race isn't playing a part in this.

I think you're indulging white privilege when you say it is.

I doubt anyone defending him here would even try and defend say Bill O'Reilly if he used the word 'fag'.

Pure idiocy, lack of imagination. Nobody would defend Jesse Jackson if he used the word "fag." In fact, I fucking guarantee you that more people out in the world would defend Bill O'Reilly than Jesse Jackson.

Would it be funny if Ted Nugent wrote up some lyrics like this?

Part of the thing you're missing is that Ted Nugent couldn't.

I don't think so, and pretending it's not that way is sort of racist.

This is really in the running for the dumbest things you've said in the last hour or so.

The latent homophobia in cultures like hip hop and dance hall, even the black church really, has gone unchecked for far too long, mostly due to liberal guilt.

Didn't Buju Banton or something like that get denied a visa a minute ago?

Didn't certain folks on the left immediately blame blacks and latinos for the victory of Prop 8 before they even bothered finding the stats?

Do you think OF has much to do with hip-hop culture as it exists in the late 00s? If you do, you need to listen to more rap.

And yes, an aggressive sexual comment by a male to an an out and public lesbian is utterly creepy, and has elements of violence in it.

Why does it matter that she's lesbian? Is it more violent if she is? That doesn't make any sense. Does Tyler know she's lesbian? Do I? I didn't, on that last part. Was the comment to her? No, not by any normal understanding.

Why are you engaged in this project of faux-patronizing pseudo-intellectual concern? Hell, why is everybody? Where were they when Chris Brown started climbing the charts again?

Y'all are getting straight trolled and it's making you look dumb as hell.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby deep.BTUz on Mon May 16, 2011 11:07 pm

Antero wrote:I think you're indulging white privilege when you say it is.


Oh, of course. Please. I think you are acting counter-progressively when you say something like that.

Pure idiocy, lack of imagination. Nobody would defend Jesse Jackson if he used the word "fag." In fact, I fucking guarantee you that more people out in the world would defend Bill O'Reilly than Jesse Jackson.


Oh, but the repercussions would be much lighter. And it's a comment on both race and creating degrees of hate, which is bullshit. Kobe Bryant got fined 100k for calling a referee a 'faggot'. Really nothing to a guy like him. Hypothetically, Dirk Nitwitzki calls a referee a 'nigger' and his career is over. I don't think that you are seeing the full picture. You say me (we the public) are getting trolled. I mean seriously fuck that. Language, like aesthetics, are political. There is a life to language beyond it's literal meaning. Tell it to some gay kid in high school who getting his ass kicked. You know that it was funny when Tyler the Creator goaded the public out of some money. Or you know that he should stop complaining about the beatings because he is exercising white privilege.


[/quote]This is really in the running for the dumbest things you've said in the last hour or so. [/quote]

Well we'll have to disagree. I think when you lower the standards for one culture, when it is not held up to the same standards as the rest of society, you are only really serving to marginalize it.


And yes, an aggressive sexual comment by a male to an an out and public lesbian is utterly creepy, and has elements of violence in it.

Why does it matter that she's lesbian? Is it more violent if she is? That doesn't make any sense. Does Tyler know she's lesbian? Do I? I didn't, on that last part. Was the comment to her? No, not by any normal understanding. [/quote]

Have you gone loony? The actual post on twitter was "If Tegan And Sara Need Some Hard Dick, Hit Me Up!" I'm going to go out on a limb and say it was directed at them.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby shloonk on Mon May 16, 2011 11:13 pm

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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby i am the smud on Tue May 17, 2011 1:02 am

deep.BTUz wrote: Kobe Bryant got fined 100k for calling a referee a 'faggot'. Really nothing to a guy like him. Hypothetically, Dirk Nitwitzki calls a referee a 'nigger' and his career is over.


It doesn't matter what your take on it is, "faggot" is simply not as loaded a term as "nigger" is in our culture. So I'm confused as to what your point is. If Dirk Nowitzki called a referee a "faggot", he would probably face the same repercussions as Kobe. This whole idea that it is more acceptable in our culture for one race to be "homophobic" over another is stupid.

I don't even think that, as it is used in our culture, "faggot" necessarily has to refer to gays. It really depends on the context. The word "cunt" for instance is commonly used in England. How often do you hear that word in America? And yet do we think of the English as an inherently misogynistic people? No, in context it usually refers to someone who is what we think of as a "douchebag".

"Nigger" however is a term that has no ambiguity to it. As defined in our culture, it has a very specific meaning.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby AnthonyCinder on Tue May 17, 2011 1:39 am

i am the smud wrote:It doesn't matter what your take on it is, "faggot" is simply not as loaded a term as "nigger" is in our culture.
I don't even think that, as it is used in our culture, "faggot" necessarily has to refer to gays.
"Nigger" however is a term that has no ambiguity to it. As defined in our culture, it has a very specific meaning.


But maybe this should change? Maybe we should progress to a point where people view the word "faggot" in the same way they view the word "nigger"?

Because I fucking do. I hate the word "faggot." I haven't said it other than in quotes since I was eight years old. I totally put it in the same column as "nigger," while recognizing that not everyone does. But maybe they should.

I agree that the term "nigger" has no ambiguity to it, or at least less so than the term "faggot."
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby Antero on Tue May 17, 2011 1:54 am

AnthonyCinder wrote:But maybe this should change? Maybe we should progress to a point where people view the word "faggot" in the same way they view the word "nigger"?

THIS is the discussion that anyone who wants to talk about this subject should be having. This is an actual topic of conversation.

On that subject, I think that "faggot" is going to decline in significance at roughly the same pace that homosexuality loses its stigma.

deep.BTUz wrote:Pure idiocy, lack of imagination. Nobody would defend Jesse Jackson if he used the word "fag." In fact, I fucking guarantee you that more people out in the world would defend Bill O'Reilly than Jesse Jackson.


Oh, but the repercussions would be much lighter.[/quote]
Bill O'Reilly says hideously hateful stuff all the fucking time. Genuinely hateful. What has come of that? You seem to live in an alternate universe.

Kobe Bryant got fined 100k for calling a referee a 'faggot'. Really nothing to a guy like him. Hypothetically, Dirk Nitwitzki calls a referee a 'nigger' and his career is over.
Given the relative placement of those words in society, no shit. See AnthonyCinder's question above.

Tell it to some gay kid in high school who getting his ass kicked.

See, this is why I think you exist in a tiny little world made up of your own imaginings. If you think a discussion of the ramifications of the use of the word "faggot" is just about the gay kid getting his ass kicked, I feel like you can't possibly have been on either end of the term.

Have you gone loony? The actual post on twitter was "If Tegan And Sara Need Some Hard Dick, Hit Me Up!" I'm going to go out on a limb and say it was directed at them.
A third-person comment is different than a second-person comment. In a Twitter context, there's a difference between an @ and not; in a real-world context, there's a difference between saying something to a person, or directed at the individual, and saying it to a third party. I realize I'm parsing things here, but it's because you have no subtlety in your thought so I'm going to stop before I have to explain the basic theory of performance to you.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby roberto on Tue May 17, 2011 10:36 am

IDNG wrote:How are the two any different? Which is what you are arguing.

I see no difference between racism and homophobia. None. Any attempt to justify either on any level is weak and betrays a level of ignorance or at least lack of thought or experience.

And I'm not trying to be a dick, I really would like to know what your rational is.

Like I said above. If the stuff doesn't bother you to hear then just enjoy the group. Just stop trying to justify the bigotry. It seems as if you are arguing the point so hard as to make yourself feel better about possibly being uncomfortable with them.



You missed the point, It was your boy Tyler the creator's quote.. I just changed "faggot" to "nigger"..

... My rational is never in a million years would some new rock band would be touted "edgy", "arty", whatever you want to call it by the press if they spouted out a million Niggers or kikes in their lyrics - no matter how good the music was or how fresh the sound..

They would be disowned and spat out in a second.. Mocked forever. FACT

Yet some how OFWGKTA and Tyler get a pass ...why? hmmmm ....

The homophobia is not even up for discussion in some parts of the media (especially the hip/underground) they're to busy hanging off these kids nuts.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby roberto on Tue May 17, 2011 10:36 am

i am the smud wrote:It doesn't matter what your take on it is, "faggot" is simply not as loaded a term as "nigger" is in our culture. So I'm confused as to what your point is. If Dirk Nowitzki called a referee a "faggot", he would probably face the same repercussions as Kobe. This whole idea that it is more acceptable in our culture for one race to be "homophobic" over another is stupid.

I don't even think that, as it is used in our culture, "faggot" necessarily has to refer to gays. It really depends on the context. The word "cunt" for instance is commonly used in England. How often do you hear that word in America? And yet do we think of the English as an inherently misogynistic people? No, in context it usually refers to someone who is what we think of as a "douchebag".

"Nigger" however is a term that has no ambiguity to it. As defined in our culture, it has a very specific meaning.


Bullshit... The way you excused "faggot" and "cunt" is exactly what millions of kids (and adults) use to excuse "Nigger"..

"were just joking around, we're not racist, we just call each other that"

If you gonna excuse some words , at least man up and excuse them ALL equally.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby Boombats on Tue May 17, 2011 11:59 am

What's shocking about all this is how much I agree with deep.BTUz, at least in theory. Specifically to this case, I don't think OF is homophobic, sexist or racist, because I don't know them personally. I just think they're uncreative. Saying "faggot nigger" is so so so played out.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby scntfc on Tue May 17, 2011 12:00 pm

roberto wrote:Yet some how OFWGKTA and Tyler get a pass ...why?


25 years of cultural precedent. In the trajectory of hip hop lyrics from too $hort, NWA, ghetto boys et. al. and onward, odd future lyrics don't seem out of place.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby Boombats on Tue May 17, 2011 12:01 pm

i am the smud wrote:How can you not laugh at this:

"I'll crash that fuckin airplane that that faggot nigga B.o.B. is in/And stab Bruno Mars in his god damn esophagus/And won't stop till the cops come in"

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't get the funny.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby eephour on Tue May 17, 2011 12:23 pm

Can we get back to talking about there finally being some rap music that has whitey uncomfortable?
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby i am the smud on Tue May 17, 2011 12:33 pm

roberto wrote:Bullshit... The way you excused "faggot" and "cunt" is exactly what millions of kids (and adults) use to excuse "Nigger"..

"were just joking around, we're not racist, we just call each other that"

If you gonna excuse some words , at least man up and excuse them ALL equally.


Yes, there are white kids who use the word "nigger" all the time. But how often do you see white characters on TV use the word "nigger"? How often do you hear white people use it in a song? Yet everything that is considered lame is referred to as "gay" on South Park.

In this case, what is "acceptable" in conversation is different from what is acceptable in entertainment.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby Antero on Tue May 17, 2011 1:43 pm

So that New Yorker piece on Earl Sweatshirt is fascinating.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby i am the smud on Tue May 17, 2011 1:57 pm

I found it interesting that Earl denies his being sent away as involuntary, but the way OF shouts "Free Earl!" they seem to think otherwise. I wonder if and when Earl decides to come back to music if he'll do it without OF
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby eephour on Tue May 17, 2011 2:25 pm

He's out in Samoa huh?
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby AnthonyCinder on Tue May 17, 2011 2:53 pm

eephour wrote:Can we get back to talking about there finally being some rap music that has whitey uncomfortable?


To suggest that Odd Future are making music that "has whitey uncomfortable" is, I think, giving a bit too much credit to OF.

People are offended by the use of the word "faggot," which seems pretty reasonable to me. No one's scared. They just question this word being used so freely.

Tons of people find this music fresh and interesting. Tons of people don't. But come on, it's not like this is some revolutionary music that is changing culture outside of the Pitchfork universe.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby Antero on Tue May 17, 2011 6:17 pm

AnthonyCinder wrote:Tons of people find this music fresh and interesting. Tons of people don't. But come on, it's not like this is some revolutionary music that is changing culture outside of the Pitchfork universe.

The Pitchfork universe, I think, has nothing to do with this. It's where we're seeing it, but the big impact OF is going to have is on teenagers - the crowds are young as fuck. One of my friends who teaches says he's got some students who doodle OFWGKTA on everything.

Hell, I wish I could have heard Goblin in high school. That would have been revelatory.
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