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Collective: Odd Future

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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby kerble on Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:20 pm

BadComrade wrote:There are tons of rappers that don't rap about material possessions and also have their own unique "flow" (which I don't think the guys on Fallon had, as I've previously stated). Pitchfork aren't hyping them though, so you don't know about them.


so give us some recommendations for some new shit, dude at a record store. it seems your knowledge of hip hop stopped in '96. Master P? (for the record, Tyler has a line about how he's Master P in 96), so he's aware. Master P to him was punk rock, so he built his band accordingly. your view of punk seems pretty narrow.

I love how so many people that are buying in to the hype over this boring rap "collective" are also apologetic for their use of the word faggot and other things you people would be up in fucking arms about if done by a white rock band. Keep making excuses for them, faggots!


uh, I'm pretty sure the people here are okay with the band Rapeman. especially you, my fan boy friend. they're using the tons of the exact same signifiers that you find cool and neat (the barcode, e.g.) and are doing very well for themselves.

why are you hating on a bunch of kids?

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I'm happy for them. They deserve to blow up.



just played it again, thanks.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby scntfc on Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:37 pm

RSMurphy wrote:I would be remiss if I didn't state this, but the amount of slavish devotion and general brown-nosing of this collective by the general consensus of this thread is baffling and slightly insulting.


for me it has everything to do with context. i'm definitely not saying it's okay that they use the word, but in the context of the history of hip hop it is unfortunately not out of place.

i've been guiltily excusing homophobia and sexism in music i like for twenty years. i used to dj hip hop, and would make an effort to quickly drop the volume on the f-word when possible. it was an uphill battle.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby kerble on Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:42 pm

Anyone complaining about Odd Future's lyrics
that owns a Whitehouse record
can shut the hell up
starting now.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby RSMurphy on Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:06 pm

scntfc wrote:
RSMurphy wrote:I would be remiss if I didn't state this, but the amount of slavish devotion and general brown-nosing of this collective by the general consensus of this thread is baffling and slightly insulting.


for me it has everything to do with context. i'm definitely not saying it's okay that they use the word, but in the context of the history of hip hop it is unfortunately not out of place.


I agree, but my question remains why excuse it in these kids? If one's much younger sibling, friend, acquaintance, etc., employs "faggot" in, as Antero says: a denatured negative, does this make it OK? Are we just living in an uncomfortable time where these words are losing their power? And to that extent why aren't kids defanging "chink," "kike," or "spic?" It's always "fag" and "nigger." Always.

i've been guiltily excusing homophobia and sexism in music i like for twenty years.
I am sure I do this often as well. I definitely am not saying that I'm above anyone or taking some moral highground, it's just that most of the excuses in this thread don't hold water. It's like just because they are innovative they're being given certain allowances. For the life of me this is a C/NC thread, and those who are voting NC are being dismissive of salient points and issues being brought to the table that add a counterpoint to this whole you-just-ain't-getting-it vibe. Perhaps if their music was as ugly, brutal, and discomfitting as a band like Whitehouse or Throbbig Gristle could they get away with taking a first-person account into depravity and perversion, but it's catchy. Spooky and gritty, yeah, but catchy-as-fuck. Rape with a good beat. Debasing with a flow.

It isn't wrong to question these things.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby Antero on Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:56 pm

RSMurphy wrote:I agree, but my question remains why excuse it in these kids? If one's much younger sibling, friend, acquaintance, etc., employs "faggot" in, as Antero says: a denatured negative, does this make it OK? Are we just living in an uncomfortable time where these words are losing their power? And to that extent why aren't kids defanging "chink," "kike," or "spic?" It's always "fag" and "nigger." Always.

That last part is a really interesting question, and I don't know the answer. The only thing that springs to mind is perhaps it's that the most dispossessed are in a position where defanging is necessary, whereas other groups are able to defend themselves through social dominance? I don't know. "Bitch" should probably be added to the list as well.

With regards to OF, I find it easy to ignore (if not excuse, per se) their use of "faggot" given the lack of specific malice and the larger torrent of obscenity around it. I've heard a number of rap songs where there are genuine attacks on homosexuals and that shit bothers the hell out of me. I've heard even more songs where "fag" is used to say that someone is behaving in an un-manly fashion, which is also problematic. There's none of that in OF, so it never hits me as anything other than another word that Tyler is not supposed to be screaming in school.

So I guess it's not that it's OK, it's that it's a different sort of not-OK.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby Antero on Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:59 pm

BadComrade wrote:One of the biggest underground rappers around right now is a guy that calls himself Immortal Technique

Immortal Technique is awful. Awful, awful, awful. Boring beats, weak flow, can barely hold the rhythm, heavy-handed political rap. Good god. He's like a punchline for everything that's wrong with underground rap.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby A Totem Pole on Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:28 pm

///
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby Antero on Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:47 pm

BadComrade wrote:His thing fits pretty much everything you people seem to love about this weak-ass Odd Future group (which is my point).
No, he doesn't. At all. Immortal Technique is a dullard "political" real-hip-hopper with no personality, no rhymes, no aesthetic sophistication.

He, and those like him, are why "underground" hip-hop has been such a fucking wasteland for so many years.
That "beat" they used on Fallon? Boring. It never even changed.

Everyone on here who listens to OF can tell you about the beats.
Their "flow"? I've already stated who they're derivative of.

On the one hand you're wrong in your observations, and on the other hand you don't seem to know what flow means. Immortal Technique has no flow: he is a bad technical rapper. His rhymes are poor, his rhythm is weak, he has no delivery. He is incapable of creating a rhyme that evokes real human emotions or intellectual engages anyone whose politics are deeper than a bumper sticker.

I think you're just going to have to come to terms with the fact that you don't know much about rap.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby Antero on Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:59 pm

big_dave wrote:For me, they seem like the grotesque spoof element of Pharcyde tracks like "4 Better or 4 Worse" stretched out and battered around different scenes/sounds.
That last verse is so intensely creepy! Good lord.
Again, I'm not 100 percent comfortable with some of this shit, but then again, neither are they. I don't think that if they were comfortable with the subject matter they'd still rap about it.

I think this is very much correct.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby eephour on Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:10 pm

Gary Floyd wrote:Aw, that's okay, they're new wave


A friend of mine saw them play last week in the city. She asked me if I heard of them, I didn't, and asked her if they were "internet nerd rap". She laughed and told me to check out some videos and since I like Lil B I'll probably like these kids.

I watched the yonkers video and some of the Fallon gig and I'm still on the fence. I mean, yeah its cool these kids are making the music they want to make while confusing, exciting, and pissing people off all at once.

Maybe its being a stubborn new york rap fan, but I don't know, I respect it but its not really my thing. Not crap, waffles.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby Antero on Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:10 pm

So your point is you know about rap because you used to listen to Slick Rick when you were a kid, even though you admit you've ignored it for more than 20 years?

That's not knowing about rap.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby sulfur)addict on Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:15 pm

Apparently I like "hipster" hip hop. Who knew?


I don't find that tag insulting. I enjoy a ton of hipster-hyped bands, and I'd be a prick if I dismissed music just because some bullshit site like Pitchfork said it was good. Hell, what if it is good?!

I've been rocking Bastard and Earl and The Dena Tape for a short while now, and I'm really excited for Goblins. Hype be damned, I enjoy Odd Future for their skills and aesthetic. That's all I've got to say.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby RSMurphy on Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:33 pm

big_dave wrote:Guys, you're talking as though they've been around for ten years and are still making the same gags and doing the same schtick over and over. In reality, they've been around for a about 18 months and have already switched up a few times. Earl Sweatshirt must've been around for less than 10 months, but it was more than enough time for him to move from "Kill" to "Chordaroy"


By the same token they are being praised & hyped more than any other band in the history of this forum. I mean, seriously, dude, just re-read the last three pages and everyone's on their jock. Flippin' out about garden gnomes on a stage. For real. And I'm not just saying this to be contrarian, but Madonna's appearance on David Letterman was more in your face. I'm not trying to take anything away from what was a good performance, but, sheesh, stop freaking over these guys so much. Allow other folk to have a dissenting opinion without coming down on them for not being with it.

If they're still writing 666 on shit and saying 'rape' over and over in 2018, then sure I'll agree that they're the new ICP/Bloodhound Gang. But right now, I don't know what I'm gonna get. For me, they seem like the grotesque spoof element of Pharcyde tracks like "4 Better or 4 Worse" stretched out and battered around different scenes/sounds. I don't get the horrorcore reference, they're nothing like the Gravediggaz. They might sound vaguely Kool Keith-ish, but they're a world away from that kind of sample-heavy, grimy sanitized moody hiphop. I don't think they're out to shock people, when they say gross and offensive shit it is definitely like teenagers trying to make each other uneasy and fumbling around with their boundaries. Most of the time, when someone is called a faggot on an Odd Future tape, it is the one of the crew ("Wake Up Faggot") not some weird gay bogey man that they've conjured up and are trying their utmost to offend. Sure, they say plenty of shit that makes me uncomfortable, but they're out to take pleasure in that discomfort themselves. I don't think they care how the listener feels.


I am still not understanding everyone being so defensive and protective over this 18-month old hip-hop collective. Any other band, project, collective, etc., would and should be facing the same scrutiny in the Crap/Not Crap forum. And, dude, they are obviously out to shock people. That is what teenagers on the cusp of worldwide attention do. I'm not saying that is their entire MO, but to completely dismiss it is foolhardy and narrowminded. As for this whole faggot-thing? Again, the allowances being made for its usage is bewildering. Nevermind that they're calling each other faggots. I mean, when Earl calls Tyler a faggot is he complimenting him or busting his balls via the "humor" in employing an insult that is still very much in vogue?

They might goof off as rapists and homophobes, but does it really carry so much weight when they're also claiming to be cannibals, satanists, suicidal, arsonists? Why are we picking out the slurs in sea of other shit that is equally disquieting/uncomfortable? Surely if they're being irresponsible there, it follows that eating people and burning schools are so much worse than having bad opinions about someones character. I mean, technically Beating on the Brat is a much worse crime than rape. Bon Scott makes fun of poor and needy people a bunch, which would be far worse than homophobia if he was President of Earth and not the dead singer from AC/DC.


This is a good point. You make a lot of good points.

Again, I'm not 100 percent comfortable with some of this shit, but then again, neither are they. I don't think that if they were comfortable with the subject matter they'd still rap about it. Because they're teenagers. Best band of the last ten years is a retarded, meaningless stretch to make, but I can't think of that many young groups how have ever made such a push to be as original as possible. They like writing 666 on hoodies, but they also like making things that are 100 percent their own. This is pretty much why I'm comfortable with Odd Future and Mark E Smith, yet I hate Top Gear.


If they're not comfortable exposing the dark nature of the human experience then why are they exploiting it? I'm not sure I get what you're saying here.

re: "faggot", I think the word only obtained its homophobic weight around 1920ish as a conscious and explicite expression of bigotry. Before that it is mostly used as synonym for "fish wife", someone acting like a fussy or gossiping woman. It was always a strong word, almost as much as cunt is now, but seeing as most of our pejoratives for that kind of behaviour seem to be become gender/sexuality specific slurs (I think we can see a kind of anti-PC I'll-use-niggardly-if-I-want-to mentality at play) I think there is a vacuum left that this word, now with baggage, has no alternative but to fill. As the media makes extreme/racial bigotry easier and easier to distribute, it is not really surprising to me that all pejoratives gravitate towards being indicative slurs towards one specific social identity or another.


Debasing gay men by using insults attributed to "bitchy" women reaches back further than the early part of the 20th century. It's an insult, and from when it was first used in the 20th century to denigrate a homosexual man until the end of time it will be remembered that way. No amount of overuse or misappropriation will change this.

OFWGKTA aren't worth defending to people who think that all rap has to prove its intelligence and social conscience to get carded into the club of Music Worth Hearing, they're not a Ramones or Bomb Squad big deal (yet?), but they are fantastic.


Again, sir, this is C/NC. Can we get some different point of views up in a mothefucker?

I really do appreciate you taking the time to respond to most of the issues that have been raised. That's totally swagged-out.

Did I use it right?

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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby Antero on Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:48 pm

BadComrade wrote:Ok, so "school me" on all this great rap that I've apparently missed in the last 20+ years. Something better than this boring stuff, please. Something someone here would be the most excited about in like, 20 years. Especially if there are actual musicians involved. I'm still a big fan of The Root's second album (Do You Want More), and the 1st album that got reissued by Caroline in `98 wasn't that bad. Funny that they're the house band on Jimmy Fallon now. There was some other band from New Orleans that was basically a traditional New Orleans brass band with rappers that was kinda alright around that same time (98), but I can't even remember their name now.

No.

You don't strike me as actually being interested in learning about rap. You're asking about "real musicians" as if A) beatmakers aren't, B) live musicians aren't involved - they've been using studio musicians since The Chronic - and C) a live band makes better rap music. It's fine if you're not interested. You don't have to listen to rap! You can even only listen to 80s rap! There's nothing wrong with that. Just acknowledge your narrow taste in the genre and your lack of experience with the rest of it.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby SecondEdition on Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:49 pm

I would just like to say, again, that I like these guys a lot.

If I have hyped them beyond what they are, I hope it didn't get up your nose.

I do think they are extremely talented, though. If that means that I did unrealistic gushing, sorry.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby Antero on Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:23 am

RSMurphy wrote:If they're not comfortable exposing the dark nature of the human experience then why are they exploiting it? I'm not sure I get what you're saying here.

I think he's saying that they're pushing their own buttons as well as those of the audience. A lot of it seems like teenagers putting on a brave face, you know? Tyler and Earl rap quite a bit about growing up without fathers, Tyler basically excised the word "weird" from his vocabulary because he was called it so much growing up... the whole confrontational style is almost one long shout out to high school kids who are outcasts.

A side note: People seem to not realize that graphic violence, rape, &c have been present in underground rap for basically its entire history. Like, backpacker rap had quite a bit of that. Eminem wasn't the only guy in Detroit. Hell, even Slick Rick has a couple of rapey songs that are totally distressing - they have this vibe where you imagine a friend being like, "Hey man! I got with this chick the other night, let me tell you about it!" and halfway through you realize that something is horribly wrong with the story.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby SecondEdition on Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:28 am

Didn't Slick Rick do "Treat Her Like a Prostitute"?
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby Antero on Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:44 am

Yep.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby Boombats on Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:54 am

People need to stop saying "punk rock" up in this bitch. It's faggy and not swaggy.
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Re: Collective: Odd Future

Postby Cranius on Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:17 am

You guys think you know about rap? This guy knows about rap.
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