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Band: Led Zeppelin

Vote and debate.

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Led Zeppelin?

CRAP
48
18%
NOT CRAP
223
82%
 
Total votes : 271

Postby sixteenrev on Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:18 pm

jupiter wrote:Do you think Led Zeppelin ever claimed they were the greatest rock band?
I think its a safe bet that public opinion has a lot more to do with that title than anyone the band.


I think the vast, vapid expanse that is stairway to heaven pretty much says it all.
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Postby sandpanda on Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:29 pm

jupiter wrote:
sixteenrev wrote:
I would go so far as to say that Led Zeppelin is one of the top 5 all time most pretentious bands. Look at the way their music is marketed, it's like you're supposed to accept their greatness without ever hearing their music or even liking it. Every fucking ad of theirs says "the all time greatest rock band" or whatever the fuck.. let me fucking decide for myself who the best rock band is..



Do you think Led Zeppelin ever claimed they were the greatest rock band?
I think its a safe bet that public opinion has a lot more to do with that title than anyone the band.


"I am a Golden God..." --Robert Plant
"These are all MY people." --Robert Plant

At least one of them thought pretty highly of himself... but I don't think sixteenrev was implying that the Zep themselves created the mythology...
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Postby sixteenrev on Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:39 pm

sandpanda wrote: but I don't think sixteenrev was implying that the Zep themselves created the mythology...


Right.. advertising, fan base, public opinion, etc.. are very much a part of the way we perceive music..i can pretend that it's not and say "oh they're a great band".. but I'll just be honest and say CRAP.

if the band didn't intend to have that image, it's unfortunate.. their material fortune should ease their pain sufficiently. if not, i'm certainly open to whatever else they attempt.
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Postby lee on Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:59 pm

Led Zeppelin=not crap.
Personally, I don't care if anybody else thinks they're crap, I think they're great. I first got into zeppelin records in middle school (I'm 35 now) and I definitely went through a phase where I just didn't want to hear them anymore because I had listened to them so much, got into punk, whatever. After taking a vacation from those records and coming back to them I think I like them even more. Part of this may be nostalgia, but I think alot of it has to do with the quality of the music. It's not Led Zeppelin's fault that they became super-mega-stars and now you can't escape from "Stairway to Heaven". I think those guys really loved their music and had fun playing. Their records sound very natural and honest to me. Also, the more I learn about making records and the longer I play music, the more impressed I am with what they could do.
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Postby jupiter on Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:59 pm

sixteenrev wrote:
Right.. advertising, fan base, public opinion, etc.. are very much a part of the way we perceive music..i can pretend that it's not and say "oh they're a great band".. but I'll just be honest and say CRAP.



So, are you saying that you're opinion is based on your dislike of their popularity, rather than their music? Seems a bit obtuse. Oh well, you hate 'em, I love 'em. So it goes....
be good or be good at it....
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Postby stephensolo on Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:43 pm

i never loved zepplin, but their chops and influence are undeniable. plus, bonham is UNEQUALLED.

all they periphery garbage should really be kept out of the debate. who liked them, how badly they dressed, blah blah.

why i think zepplin was a great band:
1. monster riffs
2. great, i mean GREAT rythum section.
3. they took the blues structures as far as they could go and still be considered blues structurs
4. plant's voice was out of this world.
5. the records

bad things about zepplin
1. pretentious.
2. vacuous, empty lyrics and subject matter (see #1)
3. overindulgent in the mid to late 70's. (why didnt they embrace the punk ethos just a little bit?? as good as they were, had more of their song ideas been shorter, they would have been that much better. Edit thyself!)
4. the records. my own feeling is as good as paige's production was, i would have liked to hear some different people at the helm. it might have helped streamline them a little toward the end.

weigh the pros vs the cons, no contest, they are not crap.

-and the limp bizkit analogy is dumb. they're are 50 bands on the radio that sound like limp bizkit. who sounded like led zepplin? no one.
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zep

Postby the matt clark on Tue Nov 18, 2003 1:00 am

oh man, are they so not crap.

i now understand how brad can make or break friendships with this game.

anyone going out of their way to argue that zeppelin is crap is crap, but they do deserve some kudos for being able to type with their heads up their respective asses. so here's to you, cranial-rectal-inversionist-typist-dumbshits. kudos indeed.

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oh yeah

Postby the matt clark on Tue Nov 18, 2003 1:48 am

and, well, before anyone takes 'dumbshits' too personally, i didn't read a word of the pro-crappists arguments. don't care to start a slanderous campaign. apologies, sort of.

but, come on.

still not crap.

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led...

Postby Mayfair on Tue Nov 18, 2003 1:52 am

Yes, who cares what the label's ad men say or what the commercial for the new box set purports. LISTEN to the music.

Truly III is full of such great MUSIC. I have a feeling Sandpanda and sixteenrev had older brothers that liked Led Zeppelin. That usually is what ruins it for us rebellious little brothers.
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Hi Matt

Postby Mayfair on Tue Nov 18, 2003 1:55 am

Hi Matt! We just posted at the very same instant! Jinks, you owe me a bottle of Coke.

Oh, and by the way, this is my 100th post. Bring out the cake!
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pretentious

Postby spoot on Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:55 am

All criticism of the pretentiousness of massively successful rock bands is absurd and should be halted immediately. It's like criticizing the president for acting like he's in a position of power.

If pretention equals crappy rock & roll, all we'll be left with is "ol' granny playin' fiddle on the porch while the sun was goin' down? not crap!"
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Re: pretentious

Postby sixteenrev on Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:24 am

spoot wrote:All criticism of the pretentiousness of massively successful rock bands is absurd and should be halted immediately. It's like criticizing the president for acting like he's in a position of power.

If pretention equals crappy rock & roll, all we'll be left with is "ol' granny playin' fiddle on the porch while the sun was goin' down? not crap!"


Uhm, yeah.
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Postby ngjack on Wed Nov 19, 2003 11:27 am

zepellin, by and large, was a group based on wholesale theft of ideas, just like any other pop band. on principle, they are allowed that, because it is pop music and no one expects much from it. they deserve credit for taking some rather stale puzzle pieces and assembling them into a fairly presentable picture. my poor examples:
-when in doubt throw in a blues riff (hey, it worked for cream; not innovative) and slather it with distortion (a la kinks; mildly innovative because of rumored page association)
-wait a few years for a fad to pass, then reintroduce it as an original idea (their use of world/middle eastern/indian flavorings and folky sound of III was several years behind the hippie fascination with said stylings; not innovative)
-plant was a poor man's roger daltrey (mimicked his look, his sound, everything except the stutter...wait a minute, did that, too; not innovative), but poor folks do need a rock star they can call their own, right (mildly innovative)? (by the way, i'm poor so don't call me on any pc shit)
-did manage to find a way (with the help of peter grant's strong arm) around the hands-on workings of record labels (to some degree) by doing it themselves on record and making sometimes "unreasonable" demands of their label just for the perversity of it (innovative)
-managed to cobble together enough schtick to sell records, and, almost in spite of their tendency towards grave-robbing dead genres and dead bluesmen, came up with a half-way original sound that itself is mimicked by bands around the world (mildly innovative)
-jp jones is easily one of the most underrated musicians of the rock era, and was too often overshadowed by page and plant's flash, and bonham's bombastic drumming; his compositional skills were tempered with an impecable sense of taste that have never been fully recognized (innovative, for the "genius in the shadows" factor)
so i'm split, but since i can't whole-heartedly get beyond seeing this band as an over-complicated, way-too-derivative mess, i can't in good conscience vote not crap. so, crap it is.
[/code]
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Postby sandpanda on Wed Nov 19, 2003 11:41 am

whoa, ngjack... the most compelling commentary yet in this thread, and its your first post here... kudos, my friend.

i must say i agree with you on all points... like i said before, i am not a hater, just not a fan.
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Postby Chris Hardings on Wed Nov 19, 2003 11:53 am

Yeah but.... John Bohnam's awesome right? (staggers off in a drunk bewilderment)
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getting in tune

Postby mattw on Wed Nov 19, 2003 1:13 pm

...
Last edited by mattw on Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby stephensolo on Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:51 pm

to blast zepplin for ripping the blues is silly. rock n roll came directly from the blues in the 50s and 60s - it would have been impossible not to rip off blues structures. rock didnt divorce itself from the blues until punk and post punk later on. at least zepplin was open about it, i mean they dug the old blues-men, isn't that how rock started? white guys copying r&b.

oh, did we mention they fucking invented Heavy Metal??[/quote]
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Postby sandpanda on Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:20 pm

Comparing Daltrey to Plant is like comparing soy cheese to regular cheese, there's just no point and it's in shitty taste

As a long-time vegan i can totally follow this argument, soy cheese tastes like shit... yellow shit...

oh, did we mention they fucking invented Heavy Metal?

I would give more credit to Blue Cheer for that...

This has grown to quite the thread... perhaps that alone is testament to the power of the Zep... ehhh....
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Postby tmidgett on Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:27 pm

i'd like to congratulate ngjack on a fine dissection of the problems with zeppelin, and i say that as a firm not-crap vote

much appreciated in the wake of so much 'no, they rule' and 'no, they suck'
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Postby ngjack on Wed Nov 19, 2003 9:21 pm

wow, nice even tempered responses...
let me clear on this much. i don't hate zeppelin any more than i hate hendrix or cream or the allmann brothers or whatever because of the blues thing. i just don't like the blues or much of anything blues related. they don't hit me where i live. and i know i'm in the minority on that point.
and stephensolo's argument about the blues...more people inaccurately credit the blues with being the prime structure behind rock. that is simply not the case. all the early rock phenoms were country singers who (you are very, very right on this point) dug r&b. now, i can see how the mixup would happen, but r&b and the blues are not the same, however similar they are. that's like saying hip hop and r&b are the same. i mean, it's black people singing it, right? what's the difference? big one.
rock did divorce itself from the "blues" much earlier than punk, with the beatles, particularly. when they injected tin pan alley and admittedly peripheral elements of the avant garde and compositional schools, they effectively stepped out on the blues and got it on with the freaky chick down the street. and let's not forget that the velvet underground had already pointed the way about the same time as zepellin was rearing its formidable head.
and let's not get into the metal debate...who started that is irrelevant because of what it ultimately turned into (to no fault of its early advocates).
mattw, your point about influences is well taken. your point about chops is about as relevant to the debate as my shoe size is to my glasses prescription. who cares if they had chops (and i did give them props for that). the point about chops is not whether they had 'em, but how they used 'em. page in particular thrills me about as much as clapton does. those guys are great at what they do, but what i consider interesting in music has nothing to do with how much they can jack their dicks. it's great to be able to play your instrument with flawless precision, but if you don't come up with anything more than moderately interesting to me, then i'm not impressed.
and you must really not be paying attention if you don't see the similarity between daltrey and plant. before you even put on a record, take a look at a picture or two. plant did add one thing to daltrey's formula: he pushed it to the stratosphere. but that's just what i hear.
and i guess that's the point. this is all my opinion, but it's great to see other people talking about this. i've felt strongly about zepellin worship for years and i've alway been in the minority. any argument that has been presented here in favor of the zeps has been thrown at me in the past. and all points are well taken.
and the funny thing is i own most of their albums and listen to them on occassion. just for the perversity of it.
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