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Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Riff Magnum on Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:19 am

^^That was really great. Thanks for posting that. Totally constructive, informative, and helpful.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Redline on Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:24 am

When I was at the Pyramid Club in the 80's, Lady Bunny was there.

Someone thought she was Madonna.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby OrthodoxEaster on Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:02 am

Redline wrote:When I was at the Pyramid Club in the 80's, Lady Bunny was there.

Someone thought she was Madonna.


So insensitive of you to insert a gratuitous joke about blind people into this thread!
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Redline on Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:13 am

OrthodoxEaster wrote:
Redline wrote:When I was at the Pyramid Club in the 80's, Lady Bunny was there.

Someone thought she was Madonna.


So insensitive of you to insert a gratuitous joke about blind people into this thread!

No, really, that was the buzz. "Madonna is at the Pyramid"..We went down there and no Madonna.
Die Kreuzen was playing shows with Sonic Youth, I was just tagging along for a NY vacation...Eventually, walking around alphabet city at three in the morning was far more interesting than the Pyramid Club.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby blackmarket on Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:22 am

Riff Magnum wrote:I'm glad you guys know trans people. I don't


Bringing out all the old hits.

Hey Dum-Dum - you undoubtedly do know trans folk. You see them at the grocery store, you see them at the gas station, the movie theater - they may even be your neighbors. Much like back in the day when gayness was considered a pathology...back when they didn't live here(!), trans folk are actually everywhere. They are also very afraid of the societal repercussions and risk of physical danger that accompanies coming out. I learned most of what I know about camping, fishing, and deep-woods hiking from the lady who used to my uncle. Now she's all about contra dance and decked out in teal nail polish and heels. If you were to drop the prejudice, you will be surprised by who you actually live among.

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sulfur)addict wrote:The anti-social was meant towards Peterson.

I'm sure you're swell, but you're advocating for an asshole who thinks he understands my friends better than they understand themselves.

CRAP


Except I've never thought that was the issue and even though I don't know JP personally, I don't think his issue is with gender or sex or peoples personal choices either but with the fact that politicians are exploiting identity politics to further their own agenda.


Get to know your Nazi bros before standing up for them. You are wrong.

Fox & Friends guest pushes myth that 3 and 4 year old trans kids are making "surgical and biological alterations" to their bodies

Not only is Peterson willing to lie publicly, and on national television, he absolutely is attacking people's right of choice and self-determination. His claim is that "we are going to pay for [allowing people to live their truth] in a big way".
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby OrthodoxEaster on Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:25 am

Redline wrote:
OrthodoxEaster wrote:
Redline wrote:When I was at the Pyramid Club in the 80's, Lady Bunny was there.

Someone thought she was Madonna.


So insensitive of you to insert a gratuitous joke about blind people into this thread!

No, really, that was the buzz. "Madonna is at the Pyramid"..We went down there and no Madonna.
Die Kreuzen was playing shows with Sonic Youth, I was just tagging along for a NY vacation...Eventually, walking around alphabet city at three in the morning was far more interesting than the Pyramid Club.


No shit. Hilarious!

The Pyramid was an ok scene. Drag one night. Rat at Rat R or Circle X the next night. On very rare occasions, both.

Alphabet City at 3am was an awfully interesting destination up thru at least the late '90s, I'd say. Hope you managed to keep your wallet and at least find a decent slice of pizza. (Not sure if Sal's or Nino's on A, both pits of despair and bad-quality cheese, even existed just yet?)
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Mason on Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:31 am

There's a distinct possibility that Lady Bunny isn't on the vanguard of this kind of social issue anymore. Peers of hers like RuPaul certainly aren't.

But that's fine, since people who complain that the kids are getting things wrong, and Whatever Happened To this and that, have always been right, historically.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby OrthodoxEaster on Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:38 am

Mason wrote:There's a distinct possibility that Lady Bunny isn't on the vanguard of this kind of social issue anymore. Peers of hers like RuPaul certainly aren't.

But that's fine, since people who complain that the kids are getting things wrong, and Whatever Happened To this and that, have always been right, historically.


But history repeats itself. You may be wrong, you may be right, but there's a little of the flavor of early-'90s activist moves here, such as proposals to change the word "manhole" to "person hole" or to spell "women" as "womyn," in order to remove the "men." All distant, quaint memories now. Throwing the baby out w/the bathwater type shit.

It's been my experience that some trans people sweat this pronoun stuff, some do not. Peterson is wrongheaded either way.

We shall see, I guess...
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Redline on Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:46 am

OrthodoxEaster wrote:
Hope you managed to keep your wallet and at least find a decent slice of pizza.

No one fucked with us. And we went to St. Marks Pizza twice.
Look, we're from Wisconsin, we were picky about our cheese even way back then...
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby OrthodoxEaster on Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:47 am

Redline wrote:OrthodoxEaster wrote:
Hope you managed to keep your wallet and at least find a decent slice of pizza.

No one fucked with us. And we went to St. Marks Pizza twice.
Look, we're from Wisconsin, we were picky about our cheese even way back then...


Infinitely tastier, yes! Not world-changing but what do you want at 3AM?
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Madman Munt on Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:20 pm

blackmarket wrote:I learned most of what I know about camping, fishing, and deep-woods hiking from the lady who used to my uncle. Now she's all about contra dance and decked out in teal nail polish and heels.


Can you see how this can seem weird to people bought up with traditional feminism? Why are one set of activities masculine and the other feminine? Why would you need to change gender to be into either? Do we need more gender stuff or less? It's not my argument, but it is reasonable.

blackmarket wrote:Fox & Friends guest pushes myth that 3 and 4 year old trans kids are making "surgical and biological alterations" to their bodies

Not only is Peterson willing to lie publicly, and on national television, he absolutely is attacking people's right of choice and self-determination. His claim is that "we are going to pay for [allowing people to live their truth] in a big way".


Ooof. Does leave a bad taste in the mouth. It'll be interesting to see if he recants.

What does "living their truth" actually mean?

Ha. I just remembered something I've never told anyone. When I was young (4-5 I suppose) I was obsessed with Servalan from Blake's 7, all travelling the galaxy in cocktail dresses and torturing nubile young girls with orgasm-inducing electric chairs and shit. I would stretch out the necks of my T-shirts and wear them with a shoulder sticking out to be like her. Would I have jumped at the chance to be a real girl if the possibility was there? I might have done, and it would have been a very bad move.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Redline on Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:31 pm

I don't know, I think you could've pulled it off.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Madman Munt on Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:38 pm

Damn right I could've!
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Anthony Flack on Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:05 pm

blackmarket wrote:Hey Dum-Dum - you undoubtedly do know trans folk. You see them at the grocery store, you see them at the gas station, the movie theater - they may even be your neighbors. Much like back in the day when gayness was considered a pathology...back when they didn't live here(!), trans folk are actually everywhere.


The number cited by Lady Bunny up there was three people in a thousand. Don't know if that's accurate at all but three in a thousand is not quite "undoubtedly" territory for people you might know. Random people at the grocery store aren't people you know. On the other hand, you never know who you might know on a public forum.

It's only been like a week and I've gone from having no idea who Jordan Peterson is, to hearing about him everywhere, every day. He's a twat and I'm sick of him already.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby blackmarket on Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:06 pm

blackmarket wrote:I learned most of what I know about camping, fishing, and deep-woods hiking from the lady who used to my uncle. Now she's all about contra dance and decked out in teal nail polish and heels.

Madman Munt wrote:Can you see how this can seem weird to people bought up with traditional feminism?

Sure, but it's no different than a dudes who like to knit. Get over yourselves.

Madman Munt wrote:Why are one set of activities masculine and the other feminine? Why would you need to change gender to be into either? Do we need more gender stuff or less? It's not my argument, but it is reasonable.

They aren't. That was the point of my example. The example was designed to be relatable to the more normative and in this case, meatheaded instincts, that Riff displays. The point being - she didn't feel comfortable doing a lot of the things she does now due to how people would react. Being 60-something, she is too old to do some of the things she used to. There would be no need for a traumatic "coming out" for LGTB folks if the expectations other people place on them didn't exist. People place unrealistic expectations on an individual. When that individual pushes back, asserting their true identity - repressed by others around them - it is twisted into some sort of pathology. This is scapegoating. The pathology exists with Jordan Peterson, Riff Magnum, etc.

I was told there was something wrong with me because I loved Slayer, played D&D, and had blue hair. Classic story. Twenty-five years later, these are now staples of American culture. They were wrong. I was being used as a scapegoat in response to emotions others could not process or wrap their heads around.

blackmarket wrote:Fox & Friends guest pushes myth that 3 and 4 year old trans kids are making "surgical and biological alterations" to their bodies

Not only is Peterson willing to lie publicly, and on national television, he absolutely is attacking people's right of choice and self-determination. His claim is that "we are going to pay for [allowing people to live their truth] in a big way".


Madman Munt wrote:Ooof. Does leave a bad taste in the mouth. It'll be interesting to see if he recants.

Why would he? This is what Peterson actually believes.

Ha. I just remembered something I've never told anyone. When I was young (4-5 I suppose) I was obsessed with Servalan from Blake's 7, all travelling the galaxy in cocktail dresses and torturing nubile young girls with orgasm-inducing electric chairs and shit. I would wear stretch the necks of my T-shirts and wear them with a shoulder sticking out to be like her. Would I have jumped at the chance to be a real girl if the possibility was there? I might have done, and it would have been a very bad move.

Why would experimenting and play acting as a different gender have been bad? My son loves to have his toes painted. He is also into girls, loves Batman and monster trucks. What exactly is the problem here?
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby blackmarket on Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:20 pm

Anthony Flack wrote:
blackmarket wrote:Hey Dum-Dum - you undoubtedly do know trans folk. You see them at the grocery store, you see them at the gas station, the movie theater - they may even be your neighbors. Much like back in the day when gayness was considered a pathology...back when they didn't live here(!), trans folk are actually everywhere.


The number cited by Lady Bunny up there was three people in a thousand. Don't know if that's accurate at all but three in a thousand is not quite "undoubtedly" territory for people you might know. Random people at the grocery store aren't people you know. On the other hand, you never know who you might know on a public forum.

Ha, ha. Really?? I would like to see the data on that "study". Do you have it handy?

That was obviously a bullshit number pulled out of a hat, and based purely on anecdotal evidence. I didn't expect anyone to take it seriously. Is there any dispute that people tend to curtail outward expression of their needs and wants due to societal pressure, or are you of the opinion that the trans community skews younger due to a modern mental illness afflicting Western culture? Were gays, lesbians, trans folk always among us, or is this some new phenomenon? If a man is wearing pants, does that mean he wouldn't rather be in a dress and heels?
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby GrantMcNeilly on Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:07 pm

I can't understand why anyone would take this person seriously given the way he talks about postmodernism and "cultural Marxism". he is building a career talking about things he does not know anything about. The intellectual substance of his entire position is entirely uninformed. This is the best rejoinder I've read so far to his lack of knowledge on topics he seems utterly obsessed with: https://www.viewpointmag.com/2018/01/23 ... ules-life/

I think what he, and his fans, are responding to is a complete fear and hatred of the focus on "discourse" in elite society, universities, and especially elite universities, which really train the next generation of lawyers and businesspeople and politicians (so understandably it all becomes about discourse, these are the most language-laden of all occupations). JP's followers are *freaked out* about getting yelled at for using language wrong because they fear that this will put them at a disadvantage in the workplace - same reason they tend to hate feminism, affirmative action, etc - which is usually run by people who speak in scary corporate jargon and caught up in legal language and adhering to social codes that they don't feel comfortable in (the big secret is you're SUPPOSED to never feel comfortable in those situations, but life is all about being paranoid...).

I can understand a class antipathy towards obsession with discourse ("identity politics"), because it really does feel like a substitute for economic issues (as well as an addressing of other material / physical issues - just look at the replacement and degradation of second-wave feminism to the more discursive and flexible third wave feminism and you can see that things have entirely bent toward a wealthier segment of the population), but just because it's a substitute (and that isn't always the case, but it often is), that doesn't make it a distraction or anything - it hits at some of the most basic and uncomfortable issues of sociability and can in the end only be a positive good.

One of the primary power / political interactions there is is knowing what's appropriate in a social setting, and NO ONE likes to be singled out when you're in a social group and get corrected about anything. This is a terrifying thing for people, especially admittedly shy people like Riff Magnum says he is. There is nothing more aggravating than being in a social situation where there are codes of conduct and discourse and you do not know what they are - as a person, it is just offensive, an existentially terrible feeling. I've seen this kind of singling out happen to my friends, and it happened to me myself at a party once when a central american student corrected me about calling North America "America".

Did I get the sense he was looking for a chance to do it? Yes. Was I instinctively angry, furious even? Yes. Will I make the same mistake again? No, I won't. It was a humbling, uncomfortable learning experience that, in the end, is about learning to get along with people who are different from yourself.

I'm not condoning all of "call-out" culture here, which in general i actually think is actually pretty classist and repugnant, and I think it's absolutely necessary that the class element is acknowledged here because among the people I know it almost never is. It is necessary, if you're at an elite institution and want to get ahead in a global market in any kind of professional job, to learn how to get along with people other than yourself, predominantly through discourse. That is why these kinds of movements tend to be played out on university campuses, and the people who direct these movements are obnoxious rich kids, yes, who are training for jobs that will give them a lot of money. However, it is probably good policy for ANYONE to treat other people with respect, so even the people who are not at these institutions, or at college, or anywhere, should probably stop gawking, suck up their class resentment and get over their fears of losing their jobs some other way (in the same way they should quit complaining about feminism, affirmative action, etc - to say that you don't have white privilege because you are in a tough spot with your life is to be completely oblivious to SYSTEMIC injustices and to not know what you're talking about, just like Peterson). Peterson is a snake oil salesman who doesn't know what he is talking about, but to people who have economic anxiety he is just another person misdirecting anger away from where it really belongs (Republicans) towards people who are learning how to use language in a crafty way that will be useful for their job in the future. Knowing who he is should be enough to get anyone to stop listening to him.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Madman Munt on Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:37 pm

blackmarket wrote:
Madman Munt wrote:Can you see how this can seem weird to people bought up with traditional feminism?

Sure, but it's no different than a dudes who like to knit. Get over yourselves.


That was my exact point. We did, in the 70s.

Madman Munt wrote:Why are one set of activities masculine and the other feminine? Why would you need to change gender to be into either? Do we need more gender stuff or less? It's not my argument, but it is reasonable.


blackmarket wrote:They aren't. That was the point of my example. The example was designed to be relatable to the more normative and in this case, meatheaded instincts, that Riff displays. The point being - she didn't feel comfortable doing a lot of the things she does now due to how people would react. Being 60-something, she is too old to do some of the things she used to. There would be no need for a traumatic "coming out" for LGTB folks if the expectations other people place on them didn't exist. People place unrealistic expectations on an individual. When that individual pushes back, asserting their true identity - repressed by others around them - it is twisted into some sort of pathology. This is scapegoating. The pathology exists with Jordan Peterson, Riff Magnum, etc.


So why would someone need to change genders to express these things if these things are gender neutral? Are you saying transgenderism is the result of us having these rigid gender ideas which prevent people from expressing their true selves? And that their true selves are expressed through hobbies and fashion? This makes is sound like an elaborate dressing-up game.

blackmarket wrote:Why would experimenting and play acting as a different gender have been bad? My son loves to have his toes painted. He is also into girls, loves Batman and monster trucks. What exactly is the problem here?


My problem would be if I was set on a path towards a sex change.

Now, if gender is totally independent from sex, why would anyone undergo a sex change? What would be the point? You would quite literally have to be insane. You can take it up the butt all day like any God-fearing Gay dude.

I don't think the vast majority of people who have a sex change are insane in the slightest (Dude cuts off dick, lives happily ever after. That story is not insane to me.), so there has to be something more here. What is the connection?

Onwards towards a Unified Field Theory of Gender!
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Anthony Flack on Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:43 pm

Ha, ha. Really?? I would like to see the data on that "study". Do you have it handy?


Ha, ha, no I don't! I was just quoting the number mentioned above and even said I had no idea how accurate it was! Thought I made that pretty clear, ha ha.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby blackmarket on Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:08 pm

Madman Munt wrote:
blackmarket wrote:
Madman Munt wrote:Can you see how this can seem weird to people bought up with traditional feminism?

Sure, but it's no different than a dudes who like to knit. Get over yourselves.


That was my exact point. We did, in the 70s.

Madman Munt wrote:Why are one set of activities masculine and the other feminine? Why would you need to change gender to be into either? Do we need more gender stuff or less? It's not my argument, but it is reasonable.


blackmarket wrote:They aren't. That was the point of my example. The example was designed to be relatable to the more normative and in this case, meatheaded instincts, that Riff displays. The point being - she didn't feel comfortable doing a lot of the things she does now due to how people would react. Being 60-something, she is too old to do some of the things she used to. There would be no need for a traumatic "coming out" for LGTB folks if the expectations other people place on them didn't exist. People place unrealistic expectations on an individual. When that individual pushes back, asserting their true identity - repressed by others around them - it is twisted into some sort of pathology. This is scapegoating. The pathology exists with Jordan Peterson, Riff Magnum, etc.


So why would someone need to change genders to express these things if these things are gender neutral? Are you saying transgenderism is the result of us having these rigid gender ideas which prevent people from expressing their true selves? And that their true selves are expressed through hobbies and fashion? This makes is sound like an elaborate dressing-up game.

blackmarket wrote:Why would experimenting and play acting as a different gender have been bad? My son loves to have his toes painted. He is also into girls, loves Batman and monster trucks. What exactly is the problem here?


My problem would be if I was set on a path towards a sex change.

Now, if gender is totally independent from sex, why would anyone undergo a sex change? What would be the point? You would quite literally have to be insane. You can take it up the butt all day like any God-fearing Gay dude.

I don't think the vast majority of people who have a sex change are insane in the slightest (Dude cuts off dick, lives happily ever after. That story is not insane to me.), so there has to be something more here. What is the connection?

Onwards towards a Unified Field Theory of Gender!

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