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Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby blackmarket on Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:11 pm

Anthony Flack wrote:
Ha, ha. Really?? I would like to see the data on that "study". Do you have it handy?


Ha, ha, no I don't! I was just quoting the number mentioned above and even said I had no idea how accurate it was! Thought I made that pretty clear, ha ha.

That's a pretty dumb thing to do.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Madman Munt on Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:25 pm

blackmarket wrote:I have no interest in standing as a representative of a community I do not belong to. You have questions. Engage with the community or other resources and find answers.


I was asking your opinions. I would have thought you would have some of your own considering your participation in this thread so far.

Do think of yourself as having a gender identity? Then you are part of the community. It's an interesting subject that affects us all. Nothing wrong in talking about it. If you don't want to, that's ok too.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Twilight Sparkle on Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:00 pm

I feel like each time I refresh this thread there's new replies aaaaaah

blackmarket wrote:I was told there was something wrong with me because I loved Slayer, played D&D, and had blue hair. Classic story. Twenty-five years later, these are now staples of American culture. They were wrong. I was being used as a scapegoat in response to emotions others could not process or wrap their heads around.


I don't think this point can be repeated enough. The core of feeling someone else is wrong. Then how the market and popular culture can suddenly decide the signifiers are right, without really addressing this foundation of believing someone else isn't correct in their being.

Riff Magnum wrote:I'm working three jobs to support two kids by myself. See, there's my identity. Who fucking cares, right?


I care, and so do lots of people, and you should tooooo

How i see myself is probably just an ever shifting illusion in the first place.


I don't disagree, but it's not so free and easy. Much of our identity is attempting to grapple with what is forced upon us by the way other people see us. Racism, sexism, these are oppressions that arise from external views as to who we are, and this way we are watched, it is constant, whether you feel its harming you or not.

I think gender issues mostly come from this, issues of surveillance, and issues of the law's understanding of our bodies, and being called upon to be clear and concise about what everyone agrees is nebulous and confusing.

It is this undefinable nature that Jordan goes back to, equipped with Logic to defeat, that is the most poignant aspect of this position of curious gender identity.

Terre Thaemlitz wrote:For myself, the power of transgenderism - if any - rests in this vagueness and divisiveness. It is not a power of distinction or difference from other genders, but rather the power of seeing representational systems of distinction or difference between genders collapse. It is not a power of transformation, but rather the power of transition. It is not a "third gender" offering unity, or a middling of genders. It is, by all means, a threat to the myth of social unity. Within the transgendered community, it is the potential to de-essentialise acts of transitioning in relation to social process. It is hard reality like a fist in the face (as many of us unfortunately know). The more you attempt to define it, the more it eludes and betrays you.

Madman Munt wrote: Why are one set of activities masculine and the other feminine? Why would you need to change gender to be into either? Do we need more gender stuff or less? It's not my argument, but it is reasonable.


Not so far apart, to me.

Madman Munt wrote:
blackmarket wrote:Those are related to things you did. This is, in many ways, a life you chose for yourself. It's not what you are, dumbfuck. Big difference.


So when you say it's what you are, you are talking about an innate, born-this-way, biological-type identity?


I think this is a good point, because The Dark Professor's argument around gender pronouns is a necessarily essentialist one, which is I'm not going to refer to you this made up way you want, because you are sexually this or that.

phpBB [media]


On this matter, which comes up a lot, Jordan and his public back-patters openly admit they base all their feelings of this situation of trans identity on people from tumblr. It's as if all of queer theory, discussions on gender identity, exist in the mouths of the most offended and vindictive college students, the most popular tumblr meme, and whoever finagles their way onto TV with them. They join the media circus where, surprise surprise, someone is loud and yells something outrageous in their face, and they ask, "Well, how can anyone believe that? It must all be lies!".


Image


Who is really going by xe? I meet people occasionally, but the way Joe and Jordan talk, it's as if people who take on these pronouns are about to take over the world. Xir are coming for you! Then there is 'insufficient proof' for claims of non-binary identity. Okay. Maybe we should keep in mind that media figures are talking about things based on what their fans are tweeting to them, what their friends post on their facebook wall. Pronouns run amock. The looming otherkin threat to sanity. Jordan had some offhand thing he said leaked, turned into a headline, and now he's chosen to run with it. Of course, it's not as if resistance to social justice issues come from nowhere, either. We know the campus dialogue is extreme, around all issues, all the time.

GrantMcNeilly wrote:That is why these kinds of movements tend to be played out on university campuses, and the people who direct these movements are obnoxious rich kids, yes, who are training for jobs that will give them a lot of money.


phpBB [media]


However, it is probably good policy for ANYONE to treat other people with respect, so even the people who are not at these institutions, or at college, or anywhere, should probably stop gawking


Yes, it's not fun to get yelled at, their is a poverty of listening and understanding, but then are all topics of discussion in this realm not important? Lots of the issues people have seem to be who gets appointed as representatives of whatever discourse.

For me personally, I never went to Occidental, Yale, all these faraway places I seem to have to answer for when talking about leftist issues to average people. In my community college, mostly consisting of low-income black and latino students, there was no activism around issues of pure identity stated as such. When I organized as white person with the Black Student Union, it was always clear that issues of class where tied to race, gaynesses, everything. The issue wasn't me possibly wearing dreadlocks, it was the police. It wasn't a trans person's more obscure pronouns, it was that a teacher who told someone that identified as a woman that they were, in fact, a man, in front of the class. I occasionally encountered people very plugged in and compelled by the online dialogue, but they for the most part weren't organizing, they were posting. Privately grumbling. They're at the big rallies of course, like the Women's March, where people can go see Feminist Icon Olivia Munn talk, rich people in pink hats march past the homeless.

I agree with most of all what people are saying, and am heartened by the tenacity in which inclusiveness is defended in these spaces nowadays. However, when I see people angrily squat and dump in Riff's oatmeal, I can't help but think you are reproducing the tenor of the conversation people like Riff see in poor faith arguments that are clearly wrongheaded, that have become popular in a time where the most asinine, celebrity-obssessed dialogue has a national reach, because we live in a world where our news consumption and cultural opinions are directly tied to the media that exists to afford people an escape from reality.

Identity politics were all what a lot of people had to attempt to grasp themselves, and the problems they saw in the world. But at the same time, liberal identity politics is a problem, and everyone knows it, even if they don't know how to articulate it like some people with more exposure to leftist conversations. And a lot of the time some people have to pick up conservative language to attempt to explain it, in small part to how they are getting shouted down by slipping up in their terminology by self-proclaimed leftists. Fear against trans rage may be much much more unfounded than the reality of the situation, but this fear has a root in a nasty popular trends, a more general rage, and for many people, it is almost impossible to separate one voice from another. Riff is right, his and other's fears should be addressed, if we are afforded the opportunity to have 1-on-1 or small group discussions. Whatever the root, people's feelings are real.

givemenoughrope wrote:Maybe this is trite af but shouldn't people WANT to be nice and respect each other? If someone wants to be referred to in a certain way I have no problem doing that. If there are statues or flags that make certain groups of people feel like garbage then just take them the fuck down. Enough of this "but I have the right to" garbage. Waste of time. We shouldn't have to legislate this stuff. It's easy. 1st graders can do it.

This guy could be right 100% on every point (I wouldn't know) but he doesn't really mention this. Granted I've watched maybe three videos and couldn't bother with any more.


Yeah
Last edited by Twilight Sparkle on Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Anthony Flack on Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:17 pm

blackmarket wrote:
Anthony Flack wrote:
Ha, ha. Really?? I would like to see the data on that "study". Do you have it handy?


Ha, ha, no I don't! I was just quoting the number mentioned above and even said I had no idea how accurate it was! Thought I made that pretty clear, ha ha.

That's a pretty dumb thing to do.


No it isn't.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby GrantMcNeilly on Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:35 pm

Twilight Sparkle wrote:Yes, it's not fun to get yelled at, but then are all topics of discussion in this realm not important? Lots of the issues people have seem to be who gets appointed as representatives of whatever discourse.


I would say these topics are important, but unless your daddy or you makes over $200,000 a year your own input into the discussion will be minimal on the level that Peterson wants to engage. That's cynical of me but I've seen nothing to convince myself otherwise. Given my own educational experience i see plenty of this; i see a lot of people working in good faith and doing great things, but their opinions are going to sit squarely in discursive interpretations of everything, so if you want to deal with questions of whether, for example, sex does play a role with gender, or if feminism has to do with how one feels biologically or protecting women's physical bodies from an oppressor, we'll need to wait for quite a while. The US does a great job of avoiding issues of materiality as best it can.

I agree with most of all what people are saying, and am heartened by the tenacity in which inclusiveness is defended in these spaces nowadays. However, when I see people angrily squat and dump in Riff's oatmeal, I can't help but think you are reproducing the tenor of the conversation people like Riff see in poor faith arguments that are clearly wrongheaded, that have become popular in a time where the most asinine, celebrity-obssessed dialogue has a national reach, because we live in a world where our news consumption and cultural opinions are directly tied to the media that exists to afford people an escape from reality.


I hope my post didn't come off this way, and I don't begrudge people who feel hopeless for being attracted to Peterson. I also understand the rage toward identity politics, although i don't really understand why people talk about their issues of identity from a bitter, reactive standpoint, and not straightforwardly say what their own personal issues with these larger problems usually are (for example, "i don't think feminism is good because i know my boss is going to promote a woman rather than me because he has a quota to fill / he can pay her less" is not talked about as much as "women are biologically incapable of working on computers and are bad at science"). Peterson is both a crank and something of a fraud, and the fact that he is gaining stature talking about things he doesn't know the first thing about is concerning (of course, Trump was elected president, so...). I guess his followers really do feel an exasperation though, and have decided to take it out on people more vulnerable than themselves. same ol' same ol'.
Last edited by GrantMcNeilly on Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Boombats on Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:37 pm

Twilight Sparkle wrote:
phpBB [media]

I think you meant to put this in the "Well that's it for me" thread
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Twilight Sparkle on Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:41 pm

lol, not my favorite song

GrantMcNeilly wrote:I hope my post didn't come off this way


Oh no actually it didn't at all, sorry, I was attempting to splice your thoughts into mine after I typed them out because they hit on very similar beats, I was actually going to apologize for highjacking you when you might not totally agree with me, hahaha.

And yeah I agree, I think Peterson can fuck off, I am not living in hope he sees The Light. As you say though, people who listen to him, a different story. But yes, his ascendance is a sign of daaark times.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby GrantMcNeilly on Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:46 pm

Twilight Sparkle wrote:Oh no actually it didn't at all, sorry, I was attempting to splice your thoughts into mine after I typed them out because they hit on very similar beats, I was actually going to apologize for highjacking you when you might not totally agree with me, hahaha.


Yeah, I get you. I have a MUCH more class-based view of these things than most of the people I know - perhaps because my own class background is very very different from most of the students at the elite schools that I've attended - and materiality-centred reading of things like feminism, etc. I totally understand the exasperation with these issues. The solution is not following this crank though.

And thanks for talking about your experience at your college, it is refreshing to hear about movements happening at places that are NOT in the news all the time...
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Riff Magnum on Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:48 pm

Blackmarket can relax, cuz my girlfriend just reminded me I played fall softball with a trans individual. I'm so deeply bigoted, so innately scared of anything new that I must've totally forgot about him. When softball starts again in the spring I think I'll pick Logans brain on these matters. He was funny and cool as fuck from what i remember.

Not that half of you will give a fuck but the newest Rueben Report podcast has the Weinstein brothers (not the creepy hollywood fuck) on. Hearing them talk makes me think most people, myself included, are pretty ignorant as to how subtle and nuanced the theories of evolutionary biology really can be. Super cool shit. Dudes are smart.
Also in a Rueben Report from last week Peterson and Ben Shapiro both said that if they were asked by an individual person "please call me 'x'," that they would do so.
Also, pretty sure a guy like JP, who's spent his whole life in liberal academia, has a pretty good handle on what postmodernism and neo-marxism is. Pretty sure. Also, This argument that C-16 and other like minded legislation is no big deal because it concerns itself only with "institutions" and not joe blow walking down the street seems a little naive. Aren't the institutions he teaches at funded by the same government making the laws? Just saying, dude might have good reason to be paranoid.
Again another also, there's way more to peterson than just gender pronouns. Like one of the Weinstein's said, "it's probably the least interesting thing about him." Jesus fuck, can you imagine the disgusting sound of the collective PRF eyeroll as they listen to 40 hours of biblical lectures and "metaphorical truth."
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Anthony Flack on Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:52 pm

I don't like to think about the sound of massed eye-rolling.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Riff Magnum on Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:54 pm

Anthony Flack wrote:I don't like to think about the sound of massed eye-rolling.


You put a figure 8 ribbon about three feet back and eq the shit out of those low-mids
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby GrantMcNeilly on Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:56 pm

Riff Magnum wrote:Not that half of you will give a fuck but the newest Rueben Report podcast has the Weinstein brothers (not the creepy hollywood fuck) on. Hearing them talk makes me think most people, myself included, are pretty ignorant as to how subtle and nuanced the theories of evolutionary biology really can be. Super cool shit. Dudes are smart.
Also in a Rueben Report from last week Peterson and Ben Shapiro both said that if they were asked by an individual person "please call me 'x'," that they would do so.


What is your point with these two posts, seriously?
What happened to Bret Weinstein was a travesty; that said, I'd be careful watching the Rubin report, that dude is a paid hack (paid by Larry King no less) to lie that he's some kind of 'centrist'.


Also, pretty sure a guy like JP, who's spent his whole life in liberal academia, has a pretty good handle on what postmodernism and neo-marxism is. Pretty sure.


Yeah, no, he doesn't. I've spent a lot of time in "liberal academia" at this point and he has no clue what he's on about. What is he, a clinical psychologist? What would he know about postmodernism? Please read the article i posted above, it lists out pretty clearly where Peterson is wrong. His embrace of Jung should also tell you all you need to know about how up to date he is with contemporary academia.

Again another also, there's way more to peterson than just gender pronouns. Like one of the Weinstein's said, "it's probably the least interesting thing about him." Jesus fuck, can you imagine the disgusting sound of the collective PRF eyeroll as they listen to 40 hours of biblical lectures and "metaphorical truth."


I watched some of his stuff on dostoevsky, it pretty much sounds like standard catholic fare, the kind of stuff PM Matthew would be into. He's really into catholic traditional values stuff, right? That's sort of just as concerning as the trans stance, but that's my personal view.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby famousjunkie on Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:03 pm

Seems like his rise to prominence is just the result of a pre-existing political charge taking hold of a convenient mouthpiece. The charge being that of the almost hyperreal "culture war" where "SJW"s fight "the alt right." Although the issues discussed are often indeed very real, the way they come to be discussed and represented seems so heavily mediated and detached from reality that it doesn't seem like any positive traction can be gained in engaging on that battlefield.

There are lots of disenfranchised youth who swallow up these "WATCH THESE SJWS GET OWNED" Youtube compilations by the hour and are then recommended some menagerie of "Cultural Marxism" and "Political Correctness Gone Mad" documentaries and vlogs. There's this prevailing idea that academia has been swept up by this cultural Marxism conspiracy, so it's natural that a professor speaking out against the "madness" of preferred pronouns is given the spotlight. I don't think the man himself is all that bad, but he clearly lacks the necessary self-reflection to realize that he's being used for something (the enlivening of "culture war" rhetoric) that will ultimately only worsen political dialogue. I've looked into his "self-authoring" programs. It's not necessarily Dianetics, and I ultimately think it's good that he's encouraging 4channers to make something of themselves, but he's really letting a lot of bullshit come out of his mouth that he doesn't seem to understand. And then there's the way he discusses postmodernism. Which, fine, postmodernism is a tough one, but to say that "postmodernism" is to blame for the current ails of society when you haven't put in the work is just plain intellectually dishonest. Same with his conflation of Stalinism, socialism, communism, etc. As his spotlight (and Patreon account) grows larger, I fear his dumber stances will be emboldened and any chance for a necessary dark night of the soul diminished.

The cultural Marxism shit is straight up fucking dumb. Somehow it involves the Frankfurt School, ie fucking Adorno and Walter Benjamin were a part of a plot to dismantle culture at large. I don't think J. Peterson has expressed anything about this, but all of this culture war shit reminds me of the dumb things that are being passed around as fact. All that self-proclaimed willpower and self-discipline and nobody can be bothered to read a book or two.

Peterson is, at the end of the day, another "Nietzschean" whose utopia could never create a Zarathustra.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Boombats on Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:05 pm

Riff Magnum wrote:Not that half of you will give a fuck but the newest Rueben Report podcast

It's the Rubin Report, he's a stooge, and I'd rather watch The Rick Reuben Report with our very own mentally ill ex-FM than waste any minutes on that beady-eyed Quisling.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby GrantMcNeilly on Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:08 pm

Boombats wrote:
Riff Magnum wrote:Not that half of you will give a fuck but the newest Rueben Report podcast

It's the Rubin Report, he's a stooge, and I'd rather watch The Rick Reuben Report with our very own mentally ill ex-FM than waste any minutes on that beady-eyed Quisling.


haha, it's true!!! Also, is it just me or does he seem to have had LOT of plastic surgery done? I am really distracted asking myself that whenever I've seen him.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Boombats on Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:21 pm

GrantMcNeilly wrote:
Boombats wrote:
Riff Magnum wrote:Not that half of you will give a fuck but the newest Rueben Report podcast

It's the Rubin Report, he's a stooge, and I'd rather watch The Rick Reuben Report with our very own mentally ill ex-FM than waste any minutes on that beady-eyed Quisling.


haha, it's true!!! Also, is it just me or does he seem to have had LOT of plastic surgery done? I am really distracted asking myself that whenever I've seen him.

Ah, maybe that's why his face lies in the Uncanny Valley to me. Kind of a demon-doll, possessed ventriloquist's dummy kind of thing.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby GrantMcNeilly on Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:24 pm

Boombats wrote:
GrantMcNeilly wrote:
Boombats wrote:
Riff Magnum wrote:Not that half of you will give a fuck but the newest Rueben Report podcast

It's the Rubin Report, he's a stooge, and I'd rather watch The Rick Reuben Report with our very own mentally ill ex-FM than waste any minutes on that beady-eyed Quisling.


haha, it's true!!! Also, is it just me or does he seem to have had LOT of plastic surgery done? I am really distracted asking myself that whenever I've seen him.

Ah, maybe that's why his face lies in the Uncanny Valley to me. Kind of a demon-doll, possessed ventriloquist's dummy kind of thing.


Yeah I mean it barely seems to move, like he's wearing a mask or something. His mouth freaks me out.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Anthony Flack on Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:53 pm

I've half a mind to record myself rolling my eyes into a fig 8 ribbon mic fifty times over, stack them all up on top of each other and crank the compression until it sounds like a snail orgy.

Might come in handy for the next time Peterson says something.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Riff Magnum on Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:53 pm

GrantMcNeilly wrote:
Riff Magnum wrote:Not that half of you will give a fuck but the newest Rueben Report podcast has the Weinstein brothers (not the creepy hollywood fuck) on. Hearing them talk makes me think most people, myself included, are pretty ignorant as to how subtle and nuanced the theories of evolutionary biology really can be. Super cool shit. Dudes are smart.
Also in a Rueben Report from last week Peterson and Ben Shapiro both said that if they were asked by an individual person "please call me 'x'," that they would do so.


What is your point with these two posts, seriously?
What happened to Bret Weinstein was a travesty; that said, I'd be careful watching the Rubin report, that dude is a paid hack (paid by Larry King no less) to lie that he's some kind of 'centrist'.


Also, pretty sure a guy like JP, who's spent his whole life in liberal academia, has a pretty good handle on what postmodernism and neo-marxism is. Pretty sure.


Yeah, no, he doesn't. I've spent a lot of time in "liberal academia" at this point and he has no clue what he's on about. What is he, a clinical psychologist? What would he know about postmodernism? Please read the article i posted above, it lists out pretty clearly where Peterson is wrong. His embrace of Jung should also tell you all you need to know about how up to date he is with contemporary academia.

Again another also, there's way more to peterson than just gender pronouns. Like one of the Weinstein's said, "it's probably the least interesting thing about him." Jesus fuck, can you imagine the disgusting sound of the collective PRF eyeroll as they listen to 40 hours of biblical lectures and "metaphorical truth."


I watched some of his stuff on dostoevsky, it pretty much sounds like standard catholic fare, the kind of stuff PM Matthew would be into. He's really into catholic traditional values stuff, right? That's sort of just as concerning as the trans stance, but that's my personal view.



Jesus, I gotta go point by point now? This is turning into a part time job. Well, Pretty much everything in that podcast revolves around shit we've touched on in this thread and honestly it's just plain interesting to listen to. Didn't realize I had to stay focused and "win" the argument. Sorry coach.
I don't know what the Larry King business is supposed to mean? I can't learn shit from Ruebens guests because his boss is Larry King? The fuck? I like podcasts. I like long form interviews and discussions. The Rueben Report has cool guests about half the time. The motherfucking end.

So what, a person has to have 4 masters degrees in poli-sci to know what postmodernism is and how to spot it? Isn't that part of the postmodern charm, that it can be endlessly co-opted and rearranged to fit anyones definition of anything and/or simultaneously rejected and/or not? Like that last sentence, postmodernism makes no sense. There's been at least 6 examples here of regressive shit going down on college campus's that sound close enough to postmodernism to me. Please explain to me what postmodernism actually is and how Peterson is missing the mark on that definition and how missing the mark really adds up to anything important anyways. Or not. Every definition i've ever heard sounds like utter pseudo intellectual nonsense, so I don't think it really matters in the end.

I doubt i can boil down the mans thoughts and feelings on being, faith, morality, and truth in a couple words. I guess I'll just try and fail. I don't think JP ever said this in his lectures but in my mind it might actually work okay as a summation.
There's this myth that porcupines throw their quills as a means of defense. They don't, but for some reason that false idea still persists to this day. If the world were divided into two groups of people: people who believe porcupines throw their quills and people who don't. The people who believe are still less likely to be hurt by the porcupine even though their belief is scientifically false. Porcupines can still fuck you up with those quills yo'!!
yeah, i fucked it up and it's kinda lame, but I like it.
As a lifelong atheist I like it and I liked jordan petersons 42 hour biblical series of lectures.

edit: sorry, I don't know how to stack old questions upon new answers upon old questions upon new answers apparently.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Anthony Flack on Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:58 pm

Actually a ribbon mic is probably too noisy.
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