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Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Riff Magnum on Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:18 am

blackmarket wrote:
Riff Magnum wrote:Seems what he's really protesting is government mandated speech.


Is that actually a thing or are you guys making stuff up?



It's actually a thing. Canada is doing some weird shit. There's some other thing going on with the canadian bar association where they've come out and basically said they are a racist organization based on some faulty numbers and studies. Cant remember the details, but it seems insane what they're doing.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Mason on Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:36 am

Riff Magnum wrote:It's actually a thing. Canada is doing some weird shit.


Yeah, we fucking aren't, by the way.

Bill C-16 adds gender identity to the things protected against discrimination under our Human Rights Act—factors like race, religion, disability. As would apply to employment or housing, or the incitement of violence directed at any such minority group. An entirely reasonable, moral, and barely that interesting thing to do.

I don't know how any of that can come off as "You flub a 'they' on Christmas Day / they'll throw you in jail."

If you have preexisting grievances against "equality of outcome" or whatever, I can see how Peterson's act might resonate with you. Shame, though.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby kokorodoko on Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:36 am

The pronoun issue is a bit chaotic because it's a new controversy, we don't know quite how to handle it yet. There is bound to be uncertainty and vagueness.
Peterson has said that what stands out about this bill (and another similar in NY) is that it mandates what words you should use, rather than merely stating what words you can't use.
He might want to consider a situation where an employer insists on calling an employee "Chinese" despite being told over and over that he is Mongolian. That wouldn't last long. And that is government-mandated speech just the same.

He also claimed that there was this list of 30-something pronouns (in the Canadian or NY case, can't remember), that you're supposedly required to adhere to. Don't know what it's about, there's nothing in the C-16 bill about that. Will have to research it.

Now I have things to critique about the notion of multiplied categories of identity and so on, but that's another discussion.

Funnily enough, Peterson said somewhere that he would refer to a trans person as "he or "she", "according to how they present themself". So if I understand this correctly, the issue is not even that the pronoun by definition conforms to the biological sex, he knows very well gender and sex are separate, he just finds it unacceptable to demand a place outside of one of those two categories.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Mason on Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:58 am

kokorodoko wrote:He also claimed that there was this list of 30-something pronouns (in the Canadian or NY case, can't remember), that you're supposedly required to adhere to.


As you go on to say, he can't even bring himself to use anything past the male/female two, so it's dumb that he pretends to care about that.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Riff Magnum on Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:10 pm

Mason wrote:
Riff Magnum wrote:It's actually a thing. Canada is doing some weird shit.


Yeah, we fucking aren't, by the way.

Bill C-16 adds gender identity to the things protected against discrimination under our Human Rights Act—factors like race, religion, disability. As would apply to employment or housing, or the incitement of violence directed at any such minority group. An entirely reasonable, moral, and barely that interesting thing to do.

I don't know how any of that can come off as "You flub a 'they' on Christmas Day / they'll throw you in jail."

If you have preexisting grievances against "equality of outcome" or whatever, I can see how Peterson's act might resonate with you. Shame, though.



Protecting peoples rights is great as far as I'm concerned. I know there are a lot of transgender people out there that are fine with "traditional" pronouns and don't want to be addressed as "zim" or "zir" or whatever whoever decides is the new proper word for whatever it is no-one can really come to an agreement on.
Continually subdividing into smaller and smaller out groups is a dangerous game. I think that's all Peterson is saying and he does have a lot of historical proof to back up where that game eventually goes.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Riff Magnum on Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:27 pm

Mason wrote:
kokorodoko wrote:He also claimed that there was this list of 30-something pronouns (in the Canadian or NY case, can't remember), that you're supposedly required to adhere to.


As you go on to say, he can't even bring himself to use anything past the male/female two, so it's dumb that he pretends to care about that.



Maybe because it's too complicated for anyone to understand? Maybe because even transgender people can't agree on anything even remotely basic or substantial?
I'm worried that even asking the question "what pronoun do I use?" would be deemed insulting by most people. I'd be insulted if someone asked me that. Isn't the typical idea of male and female already predicated on the patriarchal dominance hierarchy anyways? So my idea of what a girl or boy looks like is already false? Gender is the software inside? Sex is the hardware outside?
Think maybe we ought to come to an understanding before we go making laws and new words and shit?
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Gramsci on Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:09 pm

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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Anthony Flack on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:01 am

Haha, that's funny. To hell with anybody who makes metaphors about the wings of government being like the wings of a bird. That argument is also like a bird, in that it is a complete turkey. Peterson sounds like a bit of a dick.

People are working through some shit with gender at the moment. As far as I can see gender is just society's way of pigeonholing you based on your sex. Not for any natural reason but for the usual bullshit societal reasons.

The more gender roles are relaxed, the more happy everybody generally seems to be. If we were to get to the point where anybody can accept any person of either sex in any social role, maybe nobody would have cause to hate their natural body any more.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby ImDADA on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:05 am

Might as well do a poll on aids.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Gramsci on Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:04 am

Anthony Flack wrote:Haha, that's funny. To hell with anybody who makes metaphors about the wings of government being like the wings of a bird. That argument is also like a bird, in that it is a complete turkey. Peterson sounds like a bit of a dick.

People are working through some shit with gender at the moment. As far as I can see gender is just society's way of pigeonholing you based on your sex. Not for any natural reason but for the usual bullshit societal reasons.

The more gender roles are relaxed, the more happy everybody generally seems to be. If we were to get to the point where anybody can accept any person of either sex in any social role, maybe nobody would have cause to hate their natural body any more.


What really irks me about "thinkers" like Peterson is the grotesque lack of awareness of their own privilege.

I'm a white, straight, male professional that was privately educated. Basically the world is specifically designed to me to be able to bumble through with almost zero resistance. I try to remain as acutely aware of this as I can. I realise I don't "identify" with any racial, sexual, gender et al group because I don't have to. This is a pretty fucking horrible inditement of the world we live in.

Peterson and Co. completely disavow the massive, almost unattainably large gap between themselves and almost every other group in society. I find it pretty sickening.

There is a dichotomy at work here as well they totally ignore. That the "others" beyond their titan-like level of privilege are placed a position of "identifying with an identity" because they are "othered" by a deeply unfair system that Peterson & Co seek to perpetrate.

I'm sure I'm not saying anything here or offering any insight that 1000s of people haven't discussed before but I have no way of having any perceptive.

Anyhoo, Straight White Dudes telling other people how they should be -anything- is fucking stupid at a basic level of logic, which is supposed to be his thing.
clocker bob may 30, 2006 wrote:I think the possibility of interbreeding between an earthly species and an extraterrestrial species is as believable as any other explanation for the existence of George W. Bush.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby sulfur)addict on Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:22 pm

Don't like it, very punchable face and smarmy voice.

Doesn't matter what message you put out, those two things together is usually enough to call CRAP with 95% accuracy.

. . . Oh his entire thing is that he's an island who shouldn't have to work on himself and other people need to get over it 'cuz Logic?

oh yeah, I'm sure I should click on all these videos to see what he has to say, yeah. That'd be a great use of my time.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Anthony Flack on Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:19 pm

I realise I don't "identify" with any racial, sexual, gender et al group because I don't have to.


Yeah, that's right, if society is excluding you because you belong or don't belong to a particular group, then that's the part of your identity you can't walk away from. Rachel Dolezal thinks she can choose to identify as black, which is nice for her, except that nobody else can choose not to. So she's just crashing the party with her flexible identity.

But this same sort of consideration of privilege is what is also getting a lot of old feminists in trouble as they object, for the same reason, to some of the loudest voices in the feminist movement being people who identify as female but were raised as male.

There is contradiction and conflict no matter where you go and somebody is going to have to straighten things out and let us know what the answer is because right now no matter what position you take, you're wrong and probably causing offense.

And maybe the best thing to do is to shut up, in descending order of privilege (if we can agree what the correct descending order of privilege is, although there's a general consensus as to who's at the top). But then I did read an opinion piece the other day that said people with privilege should not feel like they ought to shut up, because people with privilege speaking out is what ultimately causes things to change. For obvious reasons.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Madman Munt on Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:58 pm

Anthony Flack wrote:And maybe the best thing to do is to shut up


Worst thing possible.

People, say what you think, whoever you are. If you are speaking honestly and in good faith I'll listen and if someone is offended they can get fucked.

We should be going into conversations on tricky subjects specifically with the intention not to get offended. Christ, I don't know how they'll square the feminist/trans circle otherwise.

sulfur)addict wrote: . . . Oh his entire thing is that he's an island who shouldn't have to work on himself and other people need to get over it 'cuz Logic?


Correct me if I'm wrong someone, but I'm pretty sure this is the exact opposite of his entire thing.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Andrew. on Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:42 pm

ImDADA wrote:Might as well do a poll on aids.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby numberthirty on Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:11 am

I can't even get past the way this guy uses the word "Bloody" like he is really doing something when it's used.

Settle your ass down, Johnny Rotten.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby seanurban on Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:53 am

The guy with 8270 posts wrote:And maybe the best thing to do is to shut up

I take it you meant listen more; in which case, I agree.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Gramsci on Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:20 am

seanurban wrote:
The guy with 8270 posts wrote:And maybe the best thing to do is to shut up

I take it you meant listen more; in which case, I agree.


This. Seriously all. The last thing the world needs is more straight white dudes feeling they have to add their two cents to any conversation to somehow validate it.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Antero on Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:22 am

Dumb, trash, incoherent, doesn't know what postmodernism is
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Anthony Flack on Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:25 am

Gramsci wrote:The last thing the world needs is more straight white dudes feeling they have to add their two cents to any conversation to somehow validate it.


:)
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby sulfur)addict on Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:39 am

Madman Munt wrote:
sulfur)addict wrote: . . . Oh his entire thing is that he's an island who shouldn't have to work on himself and other people need to get over it 'cuz Logic?


Correct me if I'm wrong someone, but I'm pretty sure this is the exact opposite of his entire thing.


I googled him after seeing this, just in case I missed something.

He wrote a self-help book and is on a "SJW are the real fascists" tear.

Dude probably fell for a humanities professor who wasn't into men, especially those with his disposition.

Super easy CRAP, glad I followed up, plenty of lolz.
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