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Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby kokorodoko on Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:06 am

Anthony Flack wrote:There is contradiction and conflict no matter where you go and somebody is going to have to straighten things out and let us know what the answer is because right now no matter what position you take, you're wrong and probably causing offense.

Where does the fear of causing offense come from though?

In earlier times, the privileged person could convince himself that he was conforming to the right way. Any non-privileged person had their right to be heard entirely at the mercy of the privileged person. He could decide whether to listen or not, since he was part of the right, and thus got to decide what was right.
This is not necessarily down to any malignancy on the part of the privileged person. His world was interpreted in that way - there is what conforms to the right, and then there are the deviancies. Naturally the goal of everyone is to strive towards the right.
In this scenario there is no problem telling the "deviant" that they do not belong, their taking offense means nothing, since they are simply "offended by truth", and they don't have the right to define truth.

As anyone should know, there never was such a "true, right way". The universal man is a fiction, made the ideal reference point of a society of stifling sameness, where the image of stability and prosperity is made by cutting off the rough edges. Where everyone, even the privileged ones, strive to mold themselves after a mental construct of the good person (one that is useful to society) rather than living as human selves.

The entrance of the "deviants" onto the stage exposes all of this. The privileged one, formerly counting on his adherence to the right way as in itself proving his argument, is now forced to account for himself as nothing more than an individual with an opinion, the truth is no longer speaking for him. Because truth has been taken over, he no longer has the sole right to define it.

Now in the present, the non-privileged have conquered the space of discourse to such an extent that they cannot be ignored the same way anymore. Even their opponents know this, else they wouldn't care if their remarks were met with hostility. They recognize that the non-privileged are powerful enough that they have to adjust themselves to them. There is a new standard of what is acceptable, and they recognize that they have to follow this, but only in so far as they have to outwardly appear respectable, while continuing to mutter resentment under their breath. Because the new standard is not the "true" standard, it is disharmony, it is inviting chaos, it is questioning the eternal truths.

Looking at the situation honestly, you would have to get rid of the notion of stability that the previous order seemed to hold, which of course means any other notion of a guaranteed, stable, true order of things. To someone like Peterson, this is fucking terrifying. Even though he claims to follow Nietzsche - what a joke.

So to conclude, I agree with Madman Munt. Nobody should shut up, let's drag everything out into the light and pick it to pieces.
And there is no need to be afraid of offending, unless you insist upon not having to explain yourself.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Riff Magnum on Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:33 am

Gramsci wrote:
Anthony Flack wrote:Haha, that's funny. To hell with anybody who makes metaphors about the wings of government being like the wings of a bird. That argument is also like a bird, in that it is a complete turkey. Peterson sounds like a bit of a dick.

People are working through some shit with gender at the moment. As far as I can see gender is just society's way of pigeonholing you based on your sex. Not for any natural reason but for the usual bullshit societal reasons.

The more gender roles are relaxed, the more happy everybody generally seems to be. If we were to get to the point where anybody can accept any person of either sex in any social role, maybe nobody would have cause to hate their natural body any more.


What really irks me about "thinkers" like Peterson is the grotesque lack of awareness of their own privilege.

I'm a white, straight, male professional that was privately educated. Basically the world is specifically designed to me to be able to bumble through with almost zero resistance. I try to remain as acutely aware of this as I can. I realise I don't "identify" with any racial, sexual, gender et al group because I don't have to. This is a pretty fucking horrible inditement of the world we live in.

Peterson and Co. completely disavow the massive, almost unattainably large gap between themselves and almost every other group in society. I find it pretty sickening.

There is a dichotomy at work here as well they totally ignore. That the "others" beyond their titan-like level of privilege are placed a position of "identifying with an identity" because they are "othered" by a deeply unfair system that Peterson & Co seek to perpetrate.

I'm sure I'm not saying anything here or offering any insight that 1000s of people haven't discussed before but I have no way of having any perceptive.

Anyhoo, Straight White Dudes telling other people how they should be -anything- is fucking stupid at a basic level of logic, which is supposed to be his thing.


First someone says free speech is overrated, now we get this nonsense. So straight white dudes don't even get allowed to be part of the conversation? Is that your message of tolerance and acceptance?

You make it sound like he's JP Morgans grandson. Pretty sure he grew up on the edge of the wilderness in rough logging towns. He's been grinding it out as a psychology teacher at the university for 25 years, giving lectures, and writing books. He's also developed a pretty legit personality test and long term self authoring program that seem to be helping a lot of people. Helped me and my kids.
If people on the left think this guy is "the enemy" like a legit right winger, then we are totally fucked. I've voted all democrat and green since 1992, but somethings changed here the last few years. Identity politics is fucking poison.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby warmowski on Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:00 am

Without endorsing nor rejecting anything this guy says -- I've only seen ten minutes of a video, never heard of him before -- I will say that this interviewer is clearly working hard to get his plain English totally wrong at a breathtaking clip.

phpBB [media]


Her tenacity in repeatedly expressing bad faith is kind of incredible. Again and again she fights not him, but instead fights the classic crude "naturalist" biases re: human behavior, biases that are favorite intuitions of dummies everywhere. Yes, oppose that shit, but at least notice when it's not the topic. Jeez.

-r
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby blackmarket on Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:04 am

Mason wrote:
Riff Magnum wrote:It's actually a thing. Canada is doing some weird shit.


Yeah, we fucking aren't, by the way.

Bill C-16 adds gender identity to the things protected against discrimination under our Human Rights Act—factors like race, religion, disability. As would apply to employment or housing, or the incitement of violence directed at any such minority group. An entirely reasonable, moral, and barely that interesting thing to do.

I don't know how any of that can come off as "You flub a 'they' on Christmas Day / they'll throw you in jail."

If you have preexisting grievances against "equality of outcome" or whatever, I can see how Peterson's act might resonate with you. Shame, though.


OK, so Riff is full of shit, as expected.

Protected-class status doesn't mean one is brought up on charges for mistakenly mis-gendering. It is designed to protect against discrimination and harassment by institutional bodies, public and private. Riff seems to have some latent Trans-phobia, or is willfully ignorant.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby blackmarket on Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:14 am

Riff Magnum wrote:
Gramsci wrote:
Anthony Flack wrote:Haha, that's funny. To hell with anybody who makes metaphors about the wings of government being like the wings of a bird. That argument is also like a bird, in that it is a complete turkey. Peterson sounds like a bit of a dick.

People are working through some shit with gender at the moment. As far as I can see gender is just society's way of pigeonholing you based on your sex. Not for any natural reason but for the usual bullshit societal reasons.

The more gender roles are relaxed, the more happy everybody generally seems to be. If we were to get to the point where anybody can accept any person of either sex in any social role, maybe nobody would have cause to hate their natural body any more.


What really irks me about "thinkers" like Peterson is the grotesque lack of awareness of their own privilege.

I'm a white, straight, male professional that was privately educated. Basically the world is specifically designed to me to be able to bumble through with almost zero resistance. I try to remain as acutely aware of this as I can. I realise I don't "identify" with any racial, sexual, gender et al group because I don't have to. This is a pretty fucking horrible inditement of the world we live in.

Peterson and Co. completely disavow the massive, almost unattainably large gap between themselves and almost every other group in society. I find it pretty sickening.

There is a dichotomy at work here as well they totally ignore. That the "others" beyond their titan-like level of privilege are placed a position of "identifying with an identity" because they are "othered" by a deeply unfair system that Peterson & Co seek to perpetrate.

I'm sure I'm not saying anything here or offering any insight that 1000s of people haven't discussed before but I have no way of having any perceptive.

Anyhoo, Straight White Dudes telling other people how they should be -anything- is fucking stupid at a basic level of logic, which is supposed to be his thing.


First someone says free speech is overrated, now we get this nonsense. So straight white dudes don't even get allowed to be part of the conversation? Is that your message of tolerance and acceptance?


No, you don't get to decide how other people choose to be addressed. Are you (fucking) dense?
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby blackmarket on Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:25 am

phpBB [media]


Ok, so this Peterson guy believes that that the Soviet Union was a communist state and that cultural Marxism is a thing that can actually exist. Students he encounters, largely, have never heard of Stalin? I don't believe that. Jordan Peterson appears to be, not just morally corrupt and willing to lie, but uneducated as well. An unabashed moron.

Serious question - are higher Ed degrees handed out unvetted in Canada?
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Riff Magnum on Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:52 am

blackmarket wrote:
Riff Magnum wrote:
Gramsci wrote:
Anthony Flack wrote:Haha, that's funny. To hell with anybody who makes metaphors about the wings of government being like the wings of a bird. That argument is also like a bird, in that it is a complete turkey. Peterson sounds like a bit of a dick.

People are working through some shit with gender at the moment. As far as I can see gender is just society's way of pigeonholing you based on your sex. Not for any natural reason but for the usual bullshit societal reasons.

The more gender roles are relaxed, the more happy everybody generally seems to be. If we were to get to the point where anybody can accept any person of either sex in any social role, maybe nobody would have cause to hate their natural body any more.


What really irks me about "thinkers" like Peterson is the grotesque lack of awareness of their own privilege.

I'm a white, straight, male professional that was privately educated. Basically the world is specifically designed to me to be able to bumble through with almost zero resistance. I try to remain as acutely aware of this as I can. I realise I don't "identify" with any racial, sexual, gender et al group because I don't have to. This is a pretty fucking horrible inditement of the world we live in.

Peterson and Co. completely disavow the massive, almost unattainably large gap between themselves and almost every other group in society. I find it pretty sickening.

There is a dichotomy at work here as well they totally ignore. That the "others" beyond their titan-like level of privilege are placed a position of "identifying with an identity" because they are "othered" by a deeply unfair system that Peterson & Co seek to perpetrate.

I'm sure I'm not saying anything here or offering any insight that 1000s of people haven't discussed before but I have no way of having any perceptive.

Anyhoo, Straight White Dudes telling other people how they should be -anything- is fucking stupid at a basic level of logic, which is supposed to be his thing.


First someone says free speech is overrated, now we get this nonsense. So straight white dudes don't even get allowed to be part of the conversation? Is that your message of tolerance and acceptance?


No, you don't get to decide how other people choose to be addressed. Are you (fucking) dense?


Did trans gender people even choose the words in the C-16 legislation?. Or was it the canadian government, which is probably made up of a majority of straight white privileged males? Neither side can have it both ways and I'm happy to be wrong here.
Most polls suggest that at least half the people who identify as trans gender are between 16-24 years old. Yeah, lets start catering the laws to that demographic. They never change their minds.
Also, a significant portion of trans gender people polled don't even want new pronouns. They just want protection under the law, which words won't provide.
As long as the proper words and protocol are used, a landlord can still deny you housing. A hr manager can still deny you a job.
How do we fix that problem? It's also worth asking how big of a problem is this?
Is it worth fracturing a group of people who would otherwise probably vote for the same person and give more power to the "real" far right?
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Madman Munt on Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:57 am

blackmarket wrote:Students he encounters, largely, have never heard of Stalin? I don't believe that.


Dunno about the rest, but I can perfectly believe that.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby blackmarket on Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:34 am

Riff Magnum wrote:
blackmarket wrote:
Riff Magnum wrote:
Gramsci wrote:
Anthony Flack wrote:Haha, that's funny. To hell with anybody who makes metaphors about the wings of government being like the wings of a bird. That argument is also like a bird, in that it is a complete turkey. Peterson sounds like a bit of a dick.

People are working through some shit with gender at the moment. As far as I can see gender is just society's way of pigeonholing you based on your sex. Not for any natural reason but for the usual bullshit societal reasons.

The more gender roles are relaxed, the more happy everybody generally seems to be. If we were to get to the point where anybody can accept any person of either sex in any social role, maybe nobody would have cause to hate their natural body any more.


What really irks me about "thinkers" like Peterson is the grotesque lack of awareness of their own privilege.

I'm a white, straight, male professional that was privately educated. Basically the world is specifically designed to me to be able to bumble through with almost zero resistance. I try to remain as acutely aware of this as I can. I realise I don't "identify" with any racial, sexual, gender et al group because I don't have to. This is a pretty fucking horrible inditement of the world we live in.

Peterson and Co. completely disavow the massive, almost unattainably large gap between themselves and almost every other group in society. I find it pretty sickening.

There is a dichotomy at work here as well they totally ignore. That the "others" beyond their titan-like level of privilege are placed a position of "identifying with an identity" because they are "othered" by a deeply unfair system that Peterson & Co seek to perpetrate.

I'm sure I'm not saying anything here or offering any insight that 1000s of people haven't discussed before but I have no way of having any perceptive.

Anyhoo, Straight White Dudes telling other people how they should be -anything- is fucking stupid at a basic level of logic, which is supposed to be his thing.


First someone says free speech is overrated, now we get this nonsense. So straight white dudes don't even get allowed to be part of the conversation? Is that your message of tolerance and acceptance?


No, you don't get to decide how other people choose to be addressed. Are you (fucking) dense?


Did trans gender people even choose the words in the C-16 legislation? Or was it the canadian government, which is probably made up of a majority of straight white privileged males?


I don't know. I am not Canadian. You posted about the legislation. Do some research you can post here and answer your own question.

Neither side can have it both ways and I'm happy to be wrong here.

Yes, people can refer to themselves as male, female, they - whatever English pronoun they choose.

Most polls suggest that at least half the people who identify as trans gender are between 16-24 years old. Yeah, lets start catering the laws to that demographic. They never change their minds.

Old man yells ignorantly at cloud.

Take some time to consider why Trans identity skews younger. People who come out run the risk of being disowned by family. This is if they are particularly lucky. Trans women of color are being murdered in the fucking street. My former uncle, who came out a few years ago as a Trans woman, is still trying to mend the damage to his family caused by his ignorant fucking kids and ex-wife (my aunt). These are Liberals, my aunt being fairly active in the Democratic Party at the nation level. A lot of older people don't want to deal with the trauma others will cause them.

Also, a significant portion of trans gender people polled don't even want new pronouns.

Yeah, was a prime argument fifteen years ago, when same-sex marriage was up for debate. :smt006 Most "gays" don't want to marry, anyway!

They just want protection under the law, which words won't provide.

Yes, C-16 does provide protection under the law. But not enough:

As long as the proper words and protocol are used, a landlord can still deny you housing. A hr manager can still deny you a job. How do we fix that problem?

Is that a serious question? What attempts have been made to mitigate housing and employment discrimination among other minorities? Dense.

It's also worth asking how big of a problem is this?

Have you never had contact with the outside world? Have you never taken the time to consider what your life would be like if you had transitioned? I won't ask if you have ever had any contact with a transgendered individual, because... EWWW...cooties.

Is it worth fracturing a group of people who would otherwise probably vote for the same person and give more power to the "real" far right?

You are going to have to explain this sentence. I have no idea what it means in context.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby seanurban on Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:16 pm

blackmarket wrote:No, you don't get to decide how other people choose to be addressed.

I don't get to choose my words? For thousands of years we did. Language evolved just fine without legislation.
What you really are asking for is respect. That's great. JP is just arguing this ain't the way to get it. In fact, it will have the opposite effect. Maybe.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Johnny C on Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:27 pm

He's not arguing "making up a new pronoun isn't the way to respect," he's arguing "a language mutable enough to allow for people to generate their own new pronouns is a language susceptible to manipulation by sinister cultural Marxists", a powerfully dumb argument by a guy I'm still amazed is a tenured professor at a major Canadian university
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Johnny C on Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:30 pm

Professor Pronouns sucks shit imo
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Twilight Sparkle on Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:54 pm

Riff Magnum wrote:I'm worried that even asking the question "what pronoun do I use?" would be deemed insulting by most people.


Nope

I'd be insulted if someone asked me that.


Why?


I get people who align with Professor Prounouns on language policing, but really, this guy is on alt-right shows, PragerU ads, paling around with creeps, he's a joker.

Anthony Flack wrote:That argument is also like a bird, in that it is a complete turkey. [ 8) ]Peterson sounds like a bit of a dick.

People are working through some shit with gender at the moment. As far as I can see gender is just society's way of pigeonholing you based on your sex. Not for any natural reason but for the usual bullshit societal reasons.

The more gender roles are relaxed, the more happy everybody generally seems to be. If we were to get to the point where anybody can accept any person of either sex in any social role, maybe nobody would have cause to hate their natural body any more.


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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby blackmarket on Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:15 pm

seanurban wrote:
blackmarket wrote:No, you don't get to decide how other people choose to be addressed.

I don't get to choose my words? For thousands of years we did. Language evolved just fine without legislation.
What you really are asking for is respect. That's great. JP is just arguing this ain't the way to get it. In fact, it will have the opposite effect. Maybe.

Can you read, dumbshit? That's not what I wrote. You don't get to decide how people choose to be addressed.
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Perfectly incipid. Exactly what I would expect.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Madman Munt on Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:26 pm

blackmarket wrote:You don't get to decide how people choose to be addressed.


True, but I do get to decide how I address them. Usually, the two will coincide.

However, ain't no way I'm calling the The Queen "Her Royal Highness". Mrs T. Queen, perhaps.

I wonder if I'd call Sir Ben Kingsley (Clown Union), "Sir"? I heard he likes to be called it.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby blackmarket on Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:40 pm

Madman Munt wrote:
blackmarket wrote:You don't get to decide how people choose to be addressed.


True, but I do get to decide how I address them. Usually, the two will coincide.

However, ain't no way I'm calling the The Queen "Her Royal Highness". Mrs T. Queen, perhaps.

I wonder if I'd call Sir Ben Kingsley (Clown Union), "Sir"? I heard he likes to be called it.

You get to decide how you address assholes. That is a different conversation, entirely.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby seanurban on Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:57 pm

Johnny C wrote:He's not arguing "making up a new pronoun isn't the way to respect," he's arguing "a language mutable enough to allow for people to generate their own new pronouns is a language susceptible to manipulation by sinister cultural Marxists", a powerfully dumb argument by a guy I'm still amazed is a tenured professor at a major Canadian university

I think he has argued both. I think it was his debate with the trans professor on tv.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Madman Munt on Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:01 pm

blackmarket wrote:You get to decide how you address assholes. That is a different conversation, entirely.


I'm not sure the asshole/not-asshole distinction is being made in any human rights laws. Or any laws ever.
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Twilight Sparkle on Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:06 pm

Do you legitimately have a worry someone is going to legally come after you not referring to them as "Her Royal Highness"?
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Re: Alt-right darling: Jordan Peterson

Postby Madman Munt on Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:14 pm

I'm sure at one time you could be beheaded for it!

It was just an extreme example of a situation when you might want to refuse to address someone in the way they want or expect.
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