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Country: Israel

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Israel

CRAP
117
76%
NOT CRAP
37
24%
 
Total votes : 154

Country: Israel

Postby CJMcG on Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:37 am

The holocaust obviously sucked.
Why choose to force people out of their homes?
I'm sorry, but if my religious group chose a spot surrounded by enemies, I'd think again.
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Postby Gramsci on Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:09 am

Not crap with a lot of waffles.

Yes, the holocaust sucked, and the establishment of modern Israel is intrinsically linked to that event.

The reason people were forced out of their homes is extremely complicated. And the aftermath of the Six Day War is a 40 year lost opportunity.

And yes, the idea that God is some kind of divine real estate agent is frankly ridiculous.

However, you really nail on the head when you said "surrounded by enemies. In these terms Israel cannot show the slightest weakness. Remember that Israel's neighbours aren't just unhappy about them being there, they want to wipe them out.
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Postby Mr_Deadite on Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:38 am

Gramsci wrote:Not crap with a hell of a lot of waffles.
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Postby unarmedman on Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:20 am

So this little posty came from a site that I find sketchy at best (nkusa.org - the "About" page) but pretty much sums up the whole Judaism v Zionism and the modern state of Israel (and could perhaps avoid some 60+ page thread ala clocker bob):

You have always without a doubt heard and read much about the political crises in the Middle East in which the State of Israel plays a central role. This is, in fact, an ongoing series of crises with potential to bring the greatest misfortune on the entire world. Tragically many believe that Zionism and Judaism are identical. Thus they conclude that the entire Jewish people is responsible for the actions of the Zionist government and the world crises which emanates from it. This is a Grave Error!

The truth is that the Jewish faith and Zionism are two very different philosophies. They are as opposite as day and night. The Jewish people have existed for thousands of years. In their two thousand years of Divinely decreed exile no Jew ever sought to end this exile and establish independent political sovereignty anywhere. The people's sole purpose was the study and fulfillment of the Divine commandments of the Torah.

The Zionist movement created the Israeli state. The latter is a persuasion less than one hundred years old. Its essential goal was and is to change the nature of the Jewish people from that of a religious entity to a political movement. From Zionism's inception the spiritual leaders of the Jewish people stood in staunch opposition to it.

To this day Torah Jewry remains forever loyal to its faith. Zionists want the world to believe that they are the representatives of the entire Jewish people. This is false! The Jewish people never chose them as their leaders.


I think that Israel has a right to exist as a state, but all too often it gets tied up in the muck of scriptural prophecy & modern history (i.e. the holocaust). I can't possibly name all the Christians I've talked to that blindly say "yeah we should support Israel - their God's chosen people". That is a ridiculous statement because 1)It certainly breaches the separation of church and state and 2)The state was not founded as a religious state!

America's blind loyalty to Israel is its achilles heel.
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Postby eliya on Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:22 am

Not crap with lots of waffles.

the us is so loyal to Israel since we're storing lots of it's ammo here. you know, in case a war near by starts..
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Postby bassdriver on Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:32 am

it's a well known and terrible policy: annex a part of a country and settle down a group of your own folks. some years later you will have a bunch of fanatics who will fight harder than every army for the right to stay in their homes. the same thing has been done in North Ireland, South Africa, Tibet uso.
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Postby Mazec on Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:45 am

It's a risky business making an overall value judgement on a country period.
I know this is a boring statement to make on a topic like Israel, but as a supporter of other morally "iffy" countries (such as Serbia), I have had to come to terms with it.

First of all, there are many more factors which determine a country's appeal than the policy of its government. History, language, art and literature, etc.

If you want to judge a country by its governmental policies alone, there's naturally no problem with that, but make it clear that this is the only factor you're taking into account.

And, in the case of Israel, you have to take a long and hard look at US foreign policy in doing so.
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Postby tommydski on Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:09 am

This is an insanely complicated issue and not one that can be adequately summarised with a CRAP or NOT CRAP judgement.

I know a couple of people who live in Israel and they are both really great people.
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Postby yaledelay on Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:49 am

I do business with a bunch of Isreali companies and I can say that they are some of the nicest people I deal with during the day...
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Postby krakabash on Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:33 am

They chose a spot that is their traditional homeland.
Jews are a middle eastern people.
Not European.

And they worked hard for that spot.
And NEGOTIATED in civil ways for that spot.
A spot that was controlled by the Turks, who supported Hitler and lost the war.
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Postby CJMcG on Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:13 pm

I think the big problem is that this area happens to be the birthplace of the big 3 religions.
Everyone of them have had control of it for at least part of that religion's existence, but (and that is one big ass but) the Muslims have had control of this area for fucking centuries.
Remember the Crusades?
That was the Christian attempt to regain the area.
The Muslims fought their fucking asses off to keep it and in the long run they did.
It's their fucking home.
It's only now in the modern day and age when we have weapons like nuclear bombs that we can threaten people with that we were able to wrest from their grasp.
I just think that if things were planned out a little better, they could have taken a nice, safe place like Utah.
Who the fuck would've complained about that besides the Mormons?
What the hell would they have done?
You'd have a few thousand people with pitchforks and watered down beer coming after you, not over a million people who don't want you there.
Seriously, it would have been great if they had chosen a new holy land so that trigger happy countries like the USA and Great Britain wouldn't have to start wars with Israel's neighbors every couple yea...
Oh Fuck!
Jesus fucking Christ!
I...
I...
I give up.
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Postby Earwicker on Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:26 pm

krakabash wrote:They chose a spot that is their traditional homeland.

And, rather inconveniently, the traditional homeland of a load of other people too.

krakabash wrote:Jews are a middle eastern people.


The origins of the Jews may be in the middle east but after a couple of thousand years of wandering elsewhere I'm not sure this claim could be said to hold much water. How's about 'some Jews were Middle Eastern people'?
Maybe that'd be more accurate.

krakabash wrote:Not European.


Er, the one's from Europe were European.

krakabash wrote:And they worked hard for that spot.


Well, no one could disagree with this one.

krakabash wrote:And NEGOTIATED in civil ways for that spot.


Oh Jesus Wept. So Zionist assassination programs and terrorism had nothing to do with it then?

That's a rhetorical question.

krakabash wrote:A spot that was controlled by the Turks, who supported Hitler and lost the war.


I was under the impression it was controlled by us Brits. We were given the Palestinian mandate by the League of Nations after World War 1


So on all but one point you have massively over simplified or are just fucking wrong.


But carry on.
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Postby krakabash on Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:50 pm

You know, we can argue this all day back and forth and it's not worth it.

I'll just say this, like I've said before:
I think the Jewish people deserve a state in the Middle East.
Their positive contributions as a people to humanity and the world are enormous (and the "Palestinians" should learn from that example and imitate it. THAT AND THAT ALONE would be in there true best interest. They have to DESERVE a state of their own. That is my opinion.)
I don't have a problem with the general Zionist cause in that they wanted a Jewish state in that area, and they worked for it (in many ways, some good, some not) and they succeded.
Against many odds.
I have to give it up for that.
The Jewish people and Jewish state are far from perfect, and I'm sorry to say things are only going to get worse and worse for them as time goes on...
It's part of the many trials they will have to go through (and have gone through) as a people.

I know that the Jews and Muslims will never truely get along. Ever.
And ultimately it comes doen to different religions and different gods.
That really is the true root of it.
It's brother vs. brother, cousin vs. cousin, Tribal Cultural War.

I don't think the Jews DON'T deserve to be there.
Many Many people do think that though...

(A Jew helped the British (and the West) win a war, and instead of personal wealth or glory, he asked for help in securing a homeland for his people in return. That is humble and beautiful and cool.)
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Postby madlee on Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:36 pm

Jews weren't always zionist conservatives. Israel was originally founded to be a liberal secular state. It's been hijacked just like the USA has been by war mongering assholes.

The sad thing is that the liberals in both states are sheep and only worry about their new iphone reception.
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Postby galanter on Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:51 pm

madlee wrote:Israel was originally founded to be a liberal secular state.


And relative to the region, it is.

madlee wrote:It's been hijacked just like the USA has been by war mongering assholes.


The so-called hijackers in both countries can always be voted out. Unlike, say, in just about every other country in the middle east.

And with regard to Israel, from day one they've been under attack by people who vow to annihilate them. Given that many of these same powers were allies with Hitler, who also wanted to annihilate Jews, and have mounted full frontal military attacks more than once, starting on the first day of Israels existence after being created by the UN, I can understand why Israel maintains a strong military.
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Postby Earwicker on Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:44 am

galanter wrote:
madlee wrote:Israel was originally founded to be a liberal secular state.


And relative to the region, it is.


As long as you consider the murder of civilians in other country 'liberal' as long as you're not an Arab, and regardless of whether you live within the legally recognised borders of that state.

galanter wrote:
madlee wrote:It's been hijacked just like the USA has been by war mongering assholes.


The so-called hijackers in both countries can always be voted out. Unlike, say, in just about every other country in the middle east.


Yeah, except for Iraq (enormous Middle Eastern democratic success) and erm, the Palestinian Authority.
The hijackers there don't need to be voted out.
Their taxes can be withheld and then they can be starved out.

Yay, promotion of Democracy!! :smt023


And, just in case you forgot, you lot didn't elect your current hijackers.

galanter wrote:And with regard to Israel, from day one they've been under attack by people who vow to annihilate them. Given that many of these same powers were allies with Hitler, who also wanted to annihilate Jews, and have mounted full frontal military attacks more than once, starting on the first day of Israels existence after being created by the UN, I can understand why Israel maintains a strong military.


What 'day one' are you on about?

You again, conveniently for your argument, brush history under the carpet. Those nasty unreasonable terrorists you always go on about were the Zionists before what I presume is your 'day one'.

And if we are throwing Hitler about then can I point out that there was Zionist support for anti-semitism and the Nazi's because they knew it would further their cause.

Theodor Herzl said this (not referencing Nazism directly I should add)

Anti-Semites will become our surest friends, anti-Semitic countries our allies.


And Ben Gurion, the first head of Israel (and former terrorist) said this (referencing Nazism directly, I should add):

If I knew it was possible to save all the children in Germany by taking them to England, and only half of the children by taking them to Eretz Israel, I would choose the second solution. For we must take into account not only the lives of these children but also the history of the people of Israel.


Look into the history of Zionism (which is not the history of Judaism!) it's disturbing what these cats got up to to further their cause.

And finally can I suggest you avoid throwing around supporting statements referencing the UN or someone will have to bring up Count Bernadotte or resolution 242 or some such

just a suggestion


carry on
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Postby j_harvey on Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:53 am

Christopher J. McGarvey wrote:I just think that if things were planned out a little better, they could have taken a nice, safe place like Utah.

You should read Michael Chabon's new book The Yiddish Policemen's Union. He imagines a history where a Jewish state is set up in Alaska instead of Israel.

After you are done with that then pick up his other book The Final Solution, just for Jay Ryan's amazing artwork.
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Postby NerblyBear on Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:40 am

The Jews, who constitute a race unto themselves as well as following a highly idiosyncratic and beautiful religion, deserve their own state if any group of people does. They have been persecuted and bludgeoned by both Christians and Muslims for centuries as well as having fallen prey to merely secular violence such as that propagated by Nazism. They have bravely survived in a world wherein both Christians and Muslims out-number them a hundred to one. Their vulnerability to eventual extinction also makes their claim to a state unto themselves a viable one.

However, the crimes that Israel has perpetrated against the Palestinians should be faced by everyone who lives there. And the prevalence of religious propaganda should be questioned, as it often serves to justify such violence. The fact that Israel is hand-in-glove with U.S. attempts at global domination is also very dangerous.

I think that these problems are eradicable and that they certainly don't justify a CRAP vote on the state of Israel itself. However, they are pressing and difficult ones, too, and should be dealt with by anyone who supports Israel's existence. Blind loyalty is always foolish, especially when it comes to nationalism.
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Postby madlee on Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:43 am

galanter wrote:
madlee wrote:Israel was originally founded to be a liberal secular state.


And relative to the region, it is.

madlee wrote:It's been hijacked just like the USA has been by war mongering assholes.


The so-called hijackers in both countries can always be voted out. Unlike, say, in just about every other country in the middle east.

And with regard to Israel, from day one they've been under attack by people who vow to annihilate them. Given that many of these same powers were allies with Hitler, who also wanted to annihilate Jews, and have mounted full frontal military attacks more than once, starting on the first day of Israels existence after being created by the UN, I can understand why Israel maintains a strong military.


I love revisionist history. tell me all about iraq please, because I've been feeling bad about it recently.
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Postby galanter on Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:32 pm

In response to Earwicker...

By "under attack from day one" I refer to the first day of Israel's existence as an independent state.

Israel was created by the UN in 1947 via resolution 181. This UN resolution predates all the resolutions typically cited by Israel critics, and established as a matter of international law Israel's right to exist.

The Arab UN member states of the time refused to recognize Israel's right to exist in defiance of that UN resolution. This same resolution also called for the creation of a Palestinian state. But apparently it was more important to the Arab states to deny Jews a state than to comply with the UN and provide a state for Palestinians.

This attitude continues to this day.

Israel actually declared independence the day before the UK's withdrawal, May 14, 1948. What I've called "day one."

From Wikipedia, here is what happened next:

The British mandate over Palestine was due to expire on 15 May, but Jewish Leadership led by future Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion, declared independence on 14 May. The State of Israel declared itself as an independent nation, and was quickly recognized by the Soviet Union, the United States, and many other countries.

Over the next few days, approximately 1,000 Lebanese, 5,000 Syrian, 5,000 Iraqi, 10,000 Egyptian troops invaded the newly-established state. Four thousand Transjordanian troops invaded the Corpus separatum region encompassing Jerusalem and its environs, as well as areas designated as part of the Arab state by the UN partition plan. They were aided by corps of volunteers from Saudi Arabia, Libya and Yemen.

In an official cablegram from the Secretary-General of the League of Arab States to the UN Secretary-General on 15 May 1948, the Arab states publicly proclaimed their aim of creating a "United State of Palestine" in place of the Jewish and Arab, two-state, UN Plan. They claimed the latter was invalid, as it was opposed by Palestine's Arab majority, and maintained that the absence of legal authority made it necessary to intervene to protect Arab lives and property.

Israel, the US and the Soviets called the Arab states' entry into Palestine illegal aggression, UN secretary general Trygve Lie characterized it as "the first armed aggression which the world had seen since the end of the [Second World] War."


Had the Arab states accepted the UN mandate both Israel and a Palestinian state might have been able to exist in peace side by side. Some sixty years later a two state solution remains the only viable path to peace.

And some sixty years later groups like Hamas would rather slaughter their more moderate countrymen, and deny fellow Palestinians a viable state of their own, than recognize Israel's UN mandated right to exist. A similar stance is taken by Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, etc etc.

Until states like Syria and Iran agree to recognize Israel's right to exist as established by the UN in 1947, their appeal to later resolutions such as 242 (which do nothing to overturn Israel's right to exist) is cynical, hypocritical, and absurd.
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