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band: swans

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swans

crap
16
7%
not crap
194
81%
it all depends on whether jarboe is on the record
29
12%
 
Total votes : 239

Re: band: swans

Postby El Protoolio on Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:12 pm

harpseal2 wrote:
El Protoolio wrote:I'll believe any woman unconditionally who claims she was raped. I'll take her word she was raped because she said she was raped. No one is jumping the gun and you're defending a rapist. You're fucked in the head. Go away


That is a tad extreme though, isn't it? I really don't want to start shit but I really don't think "guilty until proven innocent" is fair, no matter how grotesque the crime is.


I'm not a judge or a jury. I'm not deciding another person's fate. I don't have to do anything but have an opinion. So, no. It's not extreme in the least.
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Re: band: swans

Postby rayword45 on Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:18 pm

The only thing I want to say in response to EP is that I agree with everything you've said in that post 100%, I can fully empathize with the scenario of dealing with rape apologists in the wake of rape and I duly apologize, again, if I ever came off as any sort of rape apologist.

I've said rape apologist way too many times these past few weeks.
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Re: band: swans

Postby El Protoolio on Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:36 pm

I've been sick as shit the last 12 days and completely out of my mind so if I've misread someone saying something they did not say or over reacted because if it then I am sorry. It's a sensitive issue that I wish more men would take seriously and I'm an extremely passionate person prone to hyperbolic statements. Like I said, I make mistakes, as we all do. I have no problem admitting to them.
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Re: band: swans

Postby biscuitdough on Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:04 pm

If you have sex with a blackout drunk or asleep person, you are raping them.

If that person has expressed to you on prior occasions that they do not want to have sex with you, you are raping them, and you can't even feign ignorance of the fact that sex with an asleep or blacked out person is rape.

If you defend a rapist on the grounds that the person they raped seems like they might be mentally ill, in your nonprofessional opinion, you are being an asshole.

If you also nitpick the way the person who was raped expressed to their rapist, prior to the rape, that they did not want to have sex, then you are blaming the victim.

I realize that the people in this thread who have done the last two things I mentioned have since qualified or retracted their statements. I am not here to call anyone a monster. But rape culture has taught us to think this way, and it is worth some soul-searching even if you think you're done with this discussion.

Michael Gira raped Larkin Grimm and has been obfuscating and equivocating ever since she accused him.

Don't be on Michael Gira's side.
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Re: band: swans

Postby rayword45 on Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:13 pm

I'm really curious though, is anyone HERE on Gira's side at this point?

I mean sure his rabid fans are gonna be on his side, but I'd like to think here we don't idolize musicians to the point where they can do no wrong.

And IT'S REALLY FUCKING OBVIOUS HE'S GUILTY. Actually I haven't read any FB comments in a while but now I'm curious, how the fuck do they justify that "awkward mistake while she was asleep" bullshit?
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Re: band: swans

Postby harpseal2 on Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:09 am

rayword45 wrote:I'm really curious though, is anyone HERE on Gira's side at this point?


I'm not on Gira's side, but I'm not entirely sure he did it still. It's not black and white. He might have, he might not. Larkin might be lying, might not. No matter how tiny the probability is that she's lying, statistically, it's still there.

I'm just waiting until something substantial surfaces. Everything so far has just been "he said, she said".
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Re: band: swans

Postby rawketlawnchair on Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:53 am

El Protoolio wrote:I've been sick as shit the last 12 days and completely out of my mind so if I've misread someone saying something they did not say or over reacted because if it then I am sorry. It's a sensitive issue that I wish more men would take seriously



It's a sensitive issue therefore let's throw all ambiguity and shades of gray out the window and prioritize dem sweet virtue-signalling points over fairness, evidence, rational thought, etc.

Nah, fuck that

Everybody's jumping on the "awkward mistake" line like he changed his story, but he didn't. His current story is that it was some consensual drunk awake thing, right? His initial reaction is consistent with that. It could be a lie, but people don't even have the reading comprehension to hear him out. Just like having a sexual history with some guy doesn't mean you weren't raped, admitting to consensual sex doesn't make a guy a rapist.

They both seem like basketcases to me, nothing about this would surprise me. But if not instantly believing a person just because they have two X chromosomes makes me A Bad Male Feminist then I'll happily be a A Bad Male Feminist. Lemme know when it's not a female supremacy movement. :?
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Re: band: swans

Postby AdamN on Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:58 am

MG's ex-wife (wife at the time of the alleged rape) responds to Larkin Grimm's accusations in the comments section of this article

Hello. My name is Siobhan Duffy and I am Michael's ex wife. The wife married to him (together for 12 years) while Larkin and Michael worked together. It is shameful what Ms. Grimm has done. Michael is not a rapist. And we will be making a more offical statement soon with proof of either her instabilty and her intent to ruin Michael's life work. Michael and I divorced in 2011. In 2013 Larkin wrote me on Facebook messenger (not a public post) which starts..."Dear Siobhan, I'm Sorry, I'm sorry,I'm so, so, sorry for being an immature manipulative untrustworthy whore,losing my way,being constantly high, and not follwoing my conscience when you welcomed me into your home." She goes on to tell me about the drunken night of fooling around that never included coitus. And many people that worked with both Larkin and Michael reveal that she was bragging about it at the time and finding it laughable that he was afraid his wife (me) would find out. She taunted him with telling me. When she wrote to me and spoke to Michael about it, I asked him to remove her from his label out of respect of me. Larkin claims that when she confronted him with rape, which never happened, he removed her from the label. Another false statement. And this one Facebook post has brought his 30 plus career and his name into question? It seems the media does not fact check anything anymore. Making false claims of rape can ruin someone's life, but also it undermines every true report of rape. And as seen from above, Larkin is now trying to capitalize on the current hot topic of rape in the music industry. She even mentions Kehsa in her FB post. Yes Larkin, you finally got your name in Billboard, but at what price to Michael and his family?
Check your FACTS. #IstandwithGIRA #LarkinISLYING

And I would like to add that Michael Gira is one of several men being accused by Larkin Grimm of sexual misconduct, all of whom terminated their working relationships with her. Who is the problem?
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Re: band: swans

Postby harpseal2 on Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:48 am



An "offical" statement is worthless without any pure evidence. I've never met Larkin Grimm or talked to her, but I cannot imagine her saying "I'm so, so, sorry for being an immature manipulative untrustworthy whore".

In fact, I think Siobhan is telling Porky Pies!
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Re: band: swans

Postby rayword45 on Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:56 am

harpseal2 wrote:
rayword45 wrote:I'm really curious though, is anyone HERE on Gira's side at this point?


I'm not on Gira's side, but I'm not entirely sure he did it still. It's not black and white. He might have, he might not. Larkin might be lying, might not. No matter how tiny the probability is that she's lying, statistically, it's still there.

I'm just waiting until something substantial surfaces. Everything so far has just been "he said, she said".


You can definitely argue that this isn't a black and white issue because it's not. My qualm is with any skepticism over who's guilty because AFAIK the answer is quite simple at least.

Larkin: Michael raped me
Gira: Larkin is spreading "slanderous lies!" *cue the family support which REALLY doesn't amount to shit but regardless they work hard to paint Larkin as a loon

2 days later
Gira: Well... it was honest mistake
Larkin: I was asleep

I don't know if Gira has a ridiculously incompetent legal team or aomething, but seriouly, the conversations between the two parties significantly point towards Gira's guilt. It may be he said she said in nature but

A. We are NEVER going to get physical evidence
B. When both parties are admitting to their crimes, at least subtly, what is the possibility that one would admit to rape? It's a loaded word. What Gira admit to is pretty much as close to "yeah I raped here as we are going to get

I really don't think there is any salvaging for Gira's reputation. He is one step away from an admitted rapist.
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Re: band: swans

Postby mr.arrison on Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:51 am

The thing that bothers me is that his recent admittal that what happened was an "honest mistake" - but does he not understand that it's still rape?

If I were in MG's shoes, I would come clean, stop Cosbying and downplaying what happened. It's really unbecoming of him. The whole defensive character assassination thing from his side makes me ill... But I am not surprised. Pretty common in the music industry (as much as MG says he isn't part of it..)
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Re: band: swans

Postby rayword45 on Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:13 am

I agree with mr.arrison

Everything Gira has said has been either utterly despicable or confusing at best. I don't believe there's much of a chance to save rape, but the VERY LEAST he could do is admit that what he did was fucked up rathr than beat around the bush (his "apology" had FURTHER victim shaming, seriously what the fuck?)
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Re: band: swans

Postby LizardPod on Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:51 pm

After reading this thread again, I'm definitely on Grimm's side. I can only imagine what in the fuck went through Gira's mind to think it was okay to do something like that, and then just call it a "mistake". Fucking despicable.
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Re: band: swans

Postby Bernardo on Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:55 pm

This may sound preposterous, but what if, just if, humour me for a second by trying to get in this mindset, what if, who knows, maybe, not a single one of us really knows what went on? Let's just pretend for a moment that we weren't there, and that we're not actually fucking offending each other based on what was written on the internet by people we never met.
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Re: band: swans

Postby rayword45 on Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:06 pm

While the shitslinging is kinda stupid and illplaced, one is fully free to make conjecture based on evidence. And the pro-Gira side doesn't really have any evidence..

I mean, let's assume Larkin was conscious the whole time. How do you accidentally slip your penis into someone? Where is the mistake?
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Re: band: swans

Postby harpseal2 on Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:38 pm

Bernardo wrote:This may sound preposterous, but what if, just if, humour me for a second by trying to get in this mindset, what if, who knows, maybe, not a single one of us really knows what went on? Let's just pretend for a moment that we weren't there, and that we're not actually fucking offending each other based on what was written on the internet by people we never met.


I might be guilty of this, but you're so spot on it hurts.
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Re: band: swans

Postby Joelk on Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:45 pm

Bernardo wrote:This may sound preposterous, but what if, just if, humour me for a second by trying to get in this mindset, what if, who knows, maybe, not a single one of us really knows what went on? Let's just pretend for a moment that we weren't there, and that we're not actually fucking offending each other based on what was written on the internet by people we never met.


Dingdingding! The whole thread should be closed and this should be fucking hammered to the locked door ala Martin Luther.
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Re: band: swans

Postby andyman on Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:28 pm

Bernardo wrote:This may sound preposterous, but what if, just if, humour me for a second by trying to get in this mindset, what if, who knows, maybe, not a single one of us really knows what went on? Let's just pretend for a moment that we weren't there, and that we're not actually fucking offending each other based on what was written on the internet by people we never met.


Joelk wrote:Dingdingding! The whole thread should be closed and this should be fucking hammered to the locked door ala Martin Luther.


Agreed...
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Re: band: swans

Postby Mason on Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:00 pm

The "offending each other" part is jumping out at me for some reason.
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Re: band: swans

Postby whoisalhedges on Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:26 pm

Haven't really been following the story too closely, trying to catch up on the thread now (but it's pretty convoluted).

From what I have followed, the only thing that seems clear to me is that if there was sexual contact, it was non--consensual. i.e. rape. Gira's only defense seems to be if he didn't touch her. It's clear to me she didn't want to be touched. Is this a possibility? That there was no sex at all? Because if not, Michael Gira is a rapist.

And I actually know someone who was falsely accused of rape. That 0.00000000000000000001% of accusations that are false, I personally know a guy. There was no sexual contact between them at all, I don't know what her motivations were for accusing him, but on the date she said it happened, they were in different states. There's actual proof.

But you know what? I know that guy, the 0.00000000000000000001% guy - and that's just what it is, 0.00000000000000000001%. That doesn't mean other women are lying, it doesn't mean any other woman is lying - just because something happens once doesn't mean it's going to happen again; and I can really not think of a reason to make up something like this. Exception that proves the rule or whatever. You are gonna be pilloried. We see it happening with Larkin Grimm now. Shit, we see some of it in this thread.

I'm not saying we should abandon out system of "justice," that the burden of proof should be on the accused. Just that even an accusation - again, why would anyone accuse someone falsely - is pretty strong evidence in its own right.

So, what's this mean? Fuck, I dunno - again, I don't like shifting the burden of proof to the accused in any crime, seems to invite all kinds of miscarriages of justice... if the burden were on the accused, then maybe we would see more false allegations. But as it is....

In any case, as FM El Protoolio said, no judges or juries here. We're not sending a man to prison. What we are doing is playing Crap/Not Crap. How do these allegations involve themselves with Swans' music? And, of course, one can vote Crap/Not Crap on Human: Michael Gira. Us saying he's a crap rapist doesn't put anyone in prison without a trial, after all.

From what it looks like to me, Michael Gira: crap rapist.
Swans: not crap, but I don't know how much enjoyment I'll get out of their records from here on.
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