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band: swans

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swans

crap
15
6%
not crap
192
81%
it all depends on whether jarboe is on the record
29
12%
 
Total votes : 236

Re: band: swans

Postby thelonelymastodronus on Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:29 am

jbar wrote:Any idea what the new version of Swans will be?


I think Gira's taking a break from Swans stuff.

EDIT: My bad, I just read that he'll still be recording under the Swans name, with different collaborators..no idea who though.
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Re: band: swans

Postby voncorn on Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:04 am

There was an interview circa 2014 or 2015 I believe where Gira contemplated a possible live configuration with something like several dulcimer players and a backing vocal choir that would be performed in select opera houses around the US, if it were at all feasible.

I can only imagine that he'll end up taking Swans to further grandiose heights along the lines of the recent Roger Waters tours, though on a much smaller, sensible scale.
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Re: band: swans

Postby mazacultura on Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:53 pm

Can't even sit through a song when it comes up on shuffle anymore.
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Re: band: swans

Postby Otto Parts on Fri May 19, 2017 7:29 am

Bump.

"The Great Annihilator" just got the deluxe reissue treatment (includes the Gira solo LP "Drainland" from around the same time.) Seems to have aged well in my book, as has most of the early 90s Swans output. Even the song "Celebrity Lifestyle" which I disliked back then sounds better. The remastering is nice and I got the bundle that includes the "Visualize Total Annihilation" t-shirt.
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Re: band: swans

Postby lieandswell on Fri May 19, 2017 12:47 pm

Last time I saw them was the tour for The Seer (I think). I liked the "brutal soundscape" thing, in general, but I remember thinking what Gira really needed was an editor. Really dragged on at times.
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Re: band: swans

Postby OrthodoxEaster on Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:00 am

New live album entitled Deliquescence is pretty goddamn good.

(I often prefer these limited live Swans things to the studio records they bookend.)
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Re: band: swans

Postby AnthonyVillalobos on Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:49 pm

OrthodoxEaster wrote:New live album entitled Deliquescence is pretty goddamn good.


It is really, really good. I've been blasting that one a bunch lately!
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Re: band: swans

Postby jtyler on Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:03 pm

Not crap.

Having said that, I really didn't care much for the reunion stuff at all, and I think I'm definitely in the minority here. The records just dragged on for way too long and lost my attention. I can acknowledge that they're high quality albums full of original, challenging music, but they just don't move me in any way. Best Swans moments are either when they're kicking my ass or serenading me with twisted, mournful melodies. Give me Filth, Cop or White Light from the Mouth of Infinity any day.
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Re: band: swans

Postby addley on Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:05 pm

Have trouble ever wanting to listen to this rape band anymore. Crap.
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Re: band: swans

Postby andyman on Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:49 pm

Twilight Sparkle wrote:Have trouble ever wanting to listen to this rape band anymore. Crap.

Was that accusation ever verified?
Last edited by andyman on Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: band: swans

Postby andyman on Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:49 pm

dbl
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Re: band: swans

Postby SkronkFronkerdale on Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:43 pm

Twilight Sparkle wrote:Have trouble ever wanting to listen to this rape band anymore. Crap.


One of my all-time favorite bands, I had trouble with that too after the accusation came out, as I believed Larkin. I'm always inclined to believe the women, and despise the skepticism people have towards women, as if they have something to gain from going public with such a thing. But here are Michael's own words:


Earlier this year, former Young God recording artist Larkin Grimm publicly accused you of rape. You’ve denied the accusations, but where does the situation stand now?

Michael Gira: Nowhere. It’s not true. It’s completely false. I was just realizing today, it’s like some horrible gothic fantasy wherein I’m the incubus or something. It’s just preposterous. That’s a comical word to use for something so horrible, but it’s just utterly ridiculous and false. It has no truth. I mean, certainly there was an encounter — a totally consensual encounter — but if there was a video camera there, it would completely dispel any of these preposterous accusations. All I can do is say there was certainly no coercion involved — none of the bad stuff at all.
It’s just horrifying to me that this happened. It’s been probably one of the worst events in my life. The psychological effect was terrible. It’s like someone injecting you with a mixture of gasoline and LSD simultaneously. Public shaming, or whatever they call it these days, is no joke. I’ve done some research, and innocent people kill themselves over these things — and I can see that. I’m coming to terms with it now, and it’s taken a lot of spiritual work on my part to not be angry or resentful and to try and counter it with love and compassion. That’s not an altruistic attitude — it’s really the only way. It’s the only door to go through, so that’s what I’m trying to do. It certainly had a terrible effect, but it’s dissipated. There’s nothing there. It’s not true. That’s all I can say.


The only thing that seems as horrible and tragic to me as not believing the victim, is assuming the alleged perpetrator to be guilty(tarnishing their life and work) when they are in fact innocent. I have a great deal of empathy for my imagining of both potential situations. I think the latter is a rarity for sure, but it most certainly does happen. Michael's response is much closer to what I would think an innocent person would say than a lot of the non-responses("I don't want to talk about it" etc) that seem to be rather typical of those accused. Though I don't know, I can't help but believe Michael. Sure, I'd like to believe him, but that, to the best of my self-knowledge, doesn't generally stop me from believing my gut instinct, for I love truth and justice a thousand times more than needing to think well of any artistic hero of mine. I just get the feeling he's telling the truth. That doesn't mean anything, take it as what you will. Regardless, I genuinely appreciate anyone's passion when it comes to the severity of this issue.

Louis CK, on the other hand, I've had trouble being a fan of at this point. If someone was accusing me of something heinous that I was completely innocent of, I would have plenty to say when asked about it. I don't trust these non-answers people give when asked about serious accusations.
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Re: band: swans

Postby addley on Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:37 pm

It wasn't, andyman, and I hear you Skronk, but

SkronkFronkerdale wrote:Michael's response is much closer to what I would think an innocent person would say than a lot of the non-responses("I don't want to talk about it" etc) that seem to be rather typical of those accused.


I'm not going to disbelieve someone accused of raping someone based off of any written statement. At the very very very least, judge him by how he says it with his words, and face, and even then, guy's a performer by trade, you know?

No, I agree it's not good to just throw someone in the garbage when you don't know for sure. However, from my perspective, this got washed over so quickly, and the reason it did is for every reason men get away with rape and abuse. Even if he's totally innocent, I find that to be incredibly disturbing, and it's why I feel comfortable calling Swans a rape band (who I am to understand, curiously, has all new members now?).
I also mentally inhabit a world where maybe, just maybe Michael Jackson didn't touch kids, I think there's reasons to believe that, but ultimately, what are the chances, right?

If this dude is telling the truth, it means that Grimm was going out of her way to attempt to totally fuck his life up, which is also some intense shit to believe about someone. I feel comfortable defaulting to my position, that a man in power abused that power, as it is truth enough in the way the world works.

I am against call-out-culture, and public shaming, though. I would refer people to this document as an alternative
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Re: band: swans

Postby m3kcomp on Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:17 am

Almost every aspect of culture is "Call Out Culture" now, blurring the line between what really matters and what doesn't. I have a difficult time understanding how we got here or where we are headed. Wherever it is, we are getting there faster and faster every day.

I love Swans. I don't know what happened or didn't happen between Gira and Grimm. I haven't listened to Swans since the accusation in spite of not knowing what happened. Fucked up shit no matter how you look at it. Either he's a rapist (which happens) or she wanted to destroy him (also happens). No silver lining. Even if we all wore body cameras 24/7 (and we're almost there) we wouldn't be able to answer every question. The whole thing sucks, really. In every way.
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Re: band: swans

Postby Boombats on Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:40 am

Twilight Sparkle wrote:I am against call-out-culture, and public shaming, though. I would refer people to this document as an alternative

That's not calling out? I mean she even says "SILENCE IS VIOLENCE. Speak with your friends about these issues. Gossip as a pro-social tool!" I know the guy's name is redacted, and personally I think it shouldn't be, but it seems contradictory to what you're saying.

I am not questioning the author's motives or honesty but this bit is problematic:

"In practical terms, like “goal” and “result,” did this letter accomplish what I wanted it to? Not quite... I wanted some fucking money."
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Re: band: swans

Postby addley on Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:55 am

Alright, I don't mean to totally hijack the thread, but I think the confusion Boombats is when I use the term call-out-culture, and I'm not saying you should have known this, but I'm referring to the very specific phenomenon of (largely social media) bullying that exists under the guise of defending liberal identity politics. An activity that I would equate to just literally yelling at someone. Clark is not telling anyone to check their privilege or SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP, she's not saying to beat people up over twitter, she is trying to use a very personal horrible violent event to craft a universal message to engage people about community responsibility. This is a statement addressed to all, that everyone can use.

Clark wrote:Everything is about actions. Not just thoughts, not just theory, especially not
just intentions, but acting those things out in the flesh, in ways that change
interactions and interrelations between people and communities, the kinds of
impact those actions tangibly make. This is the only thing that matters here,
the only way to instigate and actualize change.


A socialist rallying cry, if I ever heard one. I found this document to be incredibly, incredibly energizing and vital. On your point, she in fact advocates personal "call-outs" that are done in person and with understanding, not performative public shaming. She is showing superhuman empathy to people I might be tempted to just push off a cliff.

I don't think that last part about money is probl... bad at all, like not even remotely when really read in context. I think she does a very good job at explaining what money means, which is time and energy, that which had to be used to deal with the trauma. Of course she wanted some fucking money, namely from the person who abused her. And note that line was written months after the original zine, after the rapist just silently maybe went to therapy and never attempted to take any responsibility.

Thank you for reading and engaging me on it, though, for sure.
Last edited by addley on Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: band: swans

Postby SkronkFronkerdale on Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:13 am

m3kcomp wrote:Almost every aspect of culture is "Call Out Culture" now, blurring the line between what really matters and what doesn't. I have a difficult time understanding how we got here or where we are headed. Wherever it is, we are getting there faster and faster every day.

I love Swans. I don't know what happened or didn't happen between Gira and Grimm. I haven't listened to Swans since the accusation in spite of not knowing what happened. Fucked up shit no matter how you look at it. Either he's a rapist (which happens) or she wanted to destroy him (also happens). No silver lining. Even if we all wore body cameras 24/7 (and we're almost there) we wouldn't be able to answer every question. The whole thing sucks, really. In every way.


A close friend of mine made a mistake a few years ago. I don't know exactly what happened, but I do know that there were a lot of ambiguities to the situation that were not included in the judgement the local scenesters thrust upon him. He was with his girlfriend of about a year or so. It was his birthday and he was hammered drunk, and when they got home they did what they always did. Only something not so benign happened. They broke up shortly after, as she accused him of raping her that night. The word grew until the whole town found out and labeled him a rapist. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the way he handled himself in the wake of it all, with such humility, class, respect, and accountability. He took full responsibility, made no excuses, started going regularly to self-improvement and group therapy stuff, regularly talking about how he's working on himself and trying to be better(partly in general, as that night was the only incident of anything of that nature). He was constantly being "outed" everywhere he went. He'd go into a bar and he'd be told to leave and that he wasn't welcome there. It would piss me off for him, but he never said anything bad about anyone, would sooner try to see where they were coming from. His band was supposed to play at a national festival as they had before, but got taken off the bill, as it had "come to the attention" of one of the festival coordinators that "one of your members has a history of abusing women"(the one incident). The band broke up, it was a bad image to have him around. The whole bullshit hipster scene, most of which aren't half as decent and honest of a person as he is, completely outed him and put up their noses at him and gave him dirty looks whenever they saw him in public. It was too much for him and he moved to the other end of the country to start a new life. His life had basically been ruined because he had been officially designated a "rapist" without any consideration for nuance. The folks calling him out weren't after justice or the truth of what happened. They were just following the latest trend. He wasn't a human being anymore to them. I've often worried that he might take his life.

This shit is really scary. None of this is to say that something serious didn't happen that night, or that my friend didn't make a mistake, nor is it to say that it should not be taken extremely seriously when someone says they've been raped. Of course it should. It's just to say that every situation is complex in its own way and should be taken into consideration as such, but too many people don't take the time to consider that nowadays, and perhaps they don't even care to(not at all referring to you here, Twilight, I sympathize completely with where you are coming from). People are primed for the "call out" to prove they aren't a part of hashtag rape culture, or else that they're "woke" to it.

It's a truly great thing that it is finally fashionable and mainstream to take rape culture to task and to take a stand against all things that have allowed men to get away with the horrible and malevolent shit they've continually gotten away with(because of the historical power dynamic in our fucking sick and disgusting society). But the crowd is still just as superficial and shallow as ever, and its real concern is still not so much truth and justice as what is convenient, what is the word of the day, what is fashionable, and what they have to say or do to prove they are on the "right" side. Its important to remember that in real life there are human beings involved(not that anyone here is suggesting otherwise of course).

But yeah, its a sad situation regarding Michael, and there's no way of knowing. Its easier for me to believe the current Michael Gira than it would've been the old one, he has a kind of spiritual maturity to him nowadays that I respect in people. I don't know to what degree he is guilty or not, but I think it is highly likely that the situation is more complicated than an easy answer, one or the other.
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Re: band: swans

Postby Boombats on Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:57 am

Can I just say that I blame alcohol in the same way that people blame guns? Like I know guns/alcohol don't kill/rape people, people do, but damn if they/it don't make it a whole lot easier. I'm not blaming any victim for being drunk, or excusing any aggressors for their behavior, but goddamn if it isn't part of the problem. OK rant over.
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Re: band: swans

Postby addley on Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:29 pm

m3kcomp wrote:Almost every aspect of culture is "Call Out Culture" now, blurring the line between what really matters and what doesn't. I have a difficult time understanding how we got here or where we are headed. Wherever it is, we are getting there faster and faster every day.

I love Swans. I don't know what happened or didn't happen between Gira and Grimm. I haven't listened to Swans since the accusation in spite of not knowing what happened. Fucked up shit no matter how you look at it. Either he's a rapist (which happens) or she wanted to destroy him (also happens). No silver lining. Even if we all wore body cameras 24/7 (and we're almost there) we wouldn't be able to answer every question. The whole thing sucks, really. In every way.


It's all very shitty, yeah.

SkronkFronkerdale wrote:People are primed for the "call out" to prove they aren't a part of hashtag rape culture, or else that they're "woke" to it.


Yes, don't disagree. Don't have any experience with this happening over rape specifically, but plenty of other things. It's most definitely not enough to just be hip to what the hot topic of wokeness is, because it doesn't require you to actually think, just to parrot and feel good about yourself.
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Re: band: swans

Postby AnthonyVillalobos on Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:15 pm

Deliquescence is pretty great. I've been listening to it a lot lately.

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