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Either/Or: 70s Brit Punk or 80s US Hardcore

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One is more important, which?

UK
46
50%
USA
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Total votes : 92

Either/Or: 70s Brit Punk or 80s US Hardcore

Postby Johnny 13 on Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:49 pm

Winner take all.
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Postby Brett Eugene Ralph on Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:53 pm

I cannot vote until you tell me whether The Birthday Party--who relocated to London after all--qualify as "Brit punk." If so, the Brits win. Any category featuring The Birthday Party automatically wins.
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Postby alex maiolo on Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:31 pm

Brett Eugene Ralph wrote:I cannot vote until you tell me whether The Birthday Party--who relocated to London after all--qualify as "Brit punk." If so, the Brits win. Any category featuring The Birthday Party automatically wins.


What he said.

The moved to London from a former British prisoner colony.
On the Nuggets box set, the Brits, Aussies, and Euros all get lumped into one set, and the US gets it's own.
Ergo, The BP are honoraries, which means UK wins.

Then ya got your Gang Of Fours and yer Wires, not to mention your PiLs...

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Postby Johnny 13 on Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:36 pm

I accept the Nuggets rule until a UK person objects.
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Postby Ranxerox on Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:44 pm

BP and PiL are not Brit-Punk. The UK Subs are brit punk, Sham 69, The Damned, etc.

GBH, Broken Bones, Exploited are Brit Hardcore.

Minor Threat, Black Flag, Circle Jerks, NA, Necros, Angry Samoans, Zero Boys, Dead Kennedys, etc., destroys Brit Punk, much as I like the latter.

Plus, Touch and Go, SST, Dischord, and Alternative Tentacles laid alot of groundwork. Alot.
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Postby mega therion on Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:49 am

80s US HC. I would have been a LOT more conflicted had it been 80's UK HC vs. 80's US HC, just based to the greatness of early Discharge and GBH.
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Postby zom-zom on Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:01 am

American Hardcore with it's early narrow set of criteria was the death of Punk Rock. I'll go with the entertainment of British Punk Rock.
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Postby skatingbasser on Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:09 am

US hc hands down.
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Postby Chapter Two on Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:16 am

Without a trace of doubt in my mind, US hardcore wins this hands down.

The best that the best british punk bands had to offer was a furious live experience. They all still became crap on their major label deals or otherwise just wrote crap after crap to feed to their green and black spiked piss-soaked 'fans'. British punk was probably something awesome for about ten minutes in 1976.

US hardcore was the first time that bands decided to really be what they were saying they should be. Independent. Putting on their own gigs, releasing their own records, making networks. And being truly fucking ferocious. And then when ferocity became expected, doing something unexpected.

Etcetera.

The reason it was called hardcore punk is all the answer you need.
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Postby zom-zom on Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:31 am

Anyone here "been there" when any of these two eras were happening?

I suppose it's all better in restropect through the rose-tinted glasses and all. But my experience in the Midwest in the period that spawned American Hardcore was that a lot of the element of originality and "fun" took a back seat to "Reagan Sucks" style political spewing, self-important seriousness and musical stagnation.

On the other hand, some truly great bands passed through that phase such as the Minutemen, Hüsker Dü, Big Boys, etc. At the time they were considered "hardcore" and oddly enough so was my former band, but these bands all strayed from the boring thrash formula. The bands that continued on with super-fast speeds and hoarse yelling-guy vocals became stuck in a rut of genre.

There were many many bands that weren't "hardcore" that contributed to the networks, independent labels and press.

Sure, just like British Punk was exciting for a couple of years, (or ten minutes..) same goes for American Hardcore.
And just as many of these Hardcore bands ended up putting out crap on big labels to feed their close-cropped 'n short-pants wearing fans.
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Postby Tommy Alpha on Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:33 am

With you there, Chapter Two. I think the rejection of majors and the embracing of the DIY ethos is what really does it for me aside from the music, though it should be said that this wasn't something exclusive to the US. Now USHC Vs. UK Anarchopunk... that'd be tougher
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Postby zom-zom on Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:39 am

I guess part of what I'm saying is that the "DIY Ethos" was preceded by bands other than what you consider American Hardcore.
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Postby Tommy Alpha on Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:42 am

zom-zom wrote:I guess part of what I'm saying is that the "DIY Ethos" was preceded by bands other than what you consider American Hardcore.


oh sure, but its safe to say that they popularised it at least for a generation, dont you think?
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Postby zom-zom on Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:45 am

I suppose so, but unfortunately there are still thousands of "Hardcore" bands that to my jaded ears all pretty much follow a similar formula whether they're from Finland or Edina, MN. Black 'n White scraggly graphics, samey-sounding names, cloth patches with logos, flyers with bombs and whichever president is in office, etc. etc.
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Postby Tommy Alpha on Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:53 am

But that’s the same with pretty much any 'genre' music- the vast majority is derivative and self-perpetuating.
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Postby ctrl-s on Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:21 am

zom-zom wrote:American Hardcore with its early narrow set of criteria was the death of Punk Rock. I'll go with the entertainment of British Punk Rock.

Is that a hundred-dollar bill stuck to the ass of zom-zom's pants? Because that's how totally fucking ON THE MONEY zom-zom has been throughout this discussion.

edit: If the question had been 70s British punk vs. 70s American punk (as in Ohio and New York), it would've been a lot harder.

credibility edit: I was 14 years old in 1977.
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Postby Mazec on Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:55 am

A lot depends on how much you are willing to stretch your definition of punk.
If you accept a more liberal definition, then I'd say it's 70's British punk by a mile - it produced the earliest super-creative bands: Wire, Stranglers, Joy Division, Magazine, Gang of Four, etc.

Of course, none of these are "traditional" Brit punk bands, so if you want to stick to the "trad" definition, then it's a lot harder for me to answer this one.
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Postby ctrl-s on Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:03 am

Mazec wrote:Wire, Stranglers, Joy Division, Magazine, Gang of Four

I'd say all of those were "post-punk," and I don't think of Gang of Four as "punk" at all. To me "70s Brit punk" means the Sex Pistols, the Damned, the Clash, X-Ray Spex, the Slits, the Buzzcocks, the Adverts, Jilted John, etc etc etc.
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Postby motorbike guy on Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:15 am

I was there - for the USA HC scene in the early 80s. there was a great upwelling of DIY spirit in the beginning, and record labels formed, etc. Everybody seemed to be in a band or two. People were renting out VFW halls and putting on all ages shows.

But: half of the bands (maybe more than half) kind of sucked, and there was quickly a "generic thrash band" element to the whole scene. I was in Boston, so I only knew the locals, plus whatever touring bands came through. But there were a lot of bands whose hearts were in the right place, but who, at the end of the day, did not deliver the quality musical experience.

There were also bands that had 1 or 2 good songs and milked the hell out of the small amount of good will they generated.

Of course, I think the same is true of any music scene. It certainly was the same deal 8 years later in Boston, when I re-engaged.

On the other hand, the 70s Brit Punk scene happened years and miles away. All I know about it is the remaining documentation - books, records, videos. I think by neccessity or happenstance the stuff that found its way onto the documentation is overall higher quality than what I remember of the Boston HC scene. So this is an apples to oranges comparision, but the Brits win.

If I look at the US 80-83 HC scene and the surviving documents, and compare that to the 70s Brit punk, i guess if you take the best HC bands from DC, Boston, New York, Detroit, Ohio, Texas, California, Seattle, then yeah, the USA wins.
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Postby Mazec on Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:12 pm

ctrl-s wrote:
Mazec wrote:Wire, Stranglers, Joy Division, Magazine, Gang of Four

I'd say all of those were "post-punk," and I don't think of Gang of Four as "punk" at all. To me "70s Brit punk" means the Sex Pistols, the Damned, the Clash, X-Ray Spex, the Slits, the Buzzcocks, the Adverts, Jilted John, etc etc etc.


You're quite correct- that's why I added the "it depends on what you mean by punk" clause right up front. The Gang of Four and most of the other ones I cited were not punk in the classic sense of the word, but all of them did get going in the seventies, and all of them were active in the punk scene, despite not actually being punk in the purest sense of the term.
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